building a experimental aircraft.
I don't read the Rebel list as often as I used to, but
as someone who spent years looking at different kits
before buying a Rebel kit, there are a couple things
that I'd like to point out. These things aren't about
Murphy kits, they're about building airplanes in
general.
What most people forget is that you are -not- building
a plane. You are building an experimental. I don't
care which manufacturer, plans, kit, quick build, all
metal, tube and fabric, composite, or combination, or
all of the above. There isn't a single kit out there
that wont be a challenge, that wont require an
excessive (and I'm saying that word literally,
excessive, way more than what is reasonable) amount of
attention to DETAIL. None of the manufacturers that
I've seen cover all of the bases, that's why they're
EXPERIMENTALS, not airplanes. You're stringing your
own butt into something you built. You are the
manufacturer of the experimental.
Most of the big experimental companies have builders
who exchange ideas over the Internet. Zenith, Vans,
Kitfox, Velocity, Lanceair, Bearhawk (Beartracks) and
Murphy all have very active builders groups. They
-HAVE- to, because none of the experimental companies
make a perfect product. If you go to build ANY
plans/kit/quickbuild, and don't get hooked up with the
builders lists on the Internet, you're asking for
trouble with a capital C, Crash. Every builder will
have a point in the building process of every
experimental where they ask themselves "Is this plane
really safe?" It's nice to be able to talk to real,
live, other builders/pilots of your kit that will tell
you that you're not nuts, the experimental is safe,
and here are the things they did/recommend.
Every set of builders will tell you different things
about their experimental, and the company associated
with it.
If you really want to build a particular type of
aircraft, go help someone build it. It's not hard to
find someone that's building a experimental close to
where you are that's -similar- to what you'd like to
build. Dont stop at one, help several builders. If
the builders seem hesitent to have you help, bring
donuts, I have yet to see that one fail.
I helped someone build a Zenith for years before I
spent any money. I also went and spent hours in
peoples hangers and shops looking at what they were
building (Kitfox's, a Mustang II, a couple RV's, a
Lanceair, a couple Murphy's (Mark Kohut's -very- Super
Rebel 2500 for one (earlier thread)), a couple
different Zenith's), and gave them a hand if they'd
let me help.
Every experimental has warts. You'll find that the
builders know about the warts, point them out freely,
but they don't enjoy feeling as though their
experimental is the -ONLY- one with warts.
With Murphy, Zenith and Vans, I don't care where you
are on the NA contenent, you'll be able to find
someone fairly close by that is building one. Rather
than batting ideas back and forth over the Internet,
put that active curiousity of yours to work and go put
your HANDS on something that is close to your kit,
-while- it is being built.
Also, if I use your math, everything all together,
Rebel Kit, Rotax 912s, all the options (and we bought
nearly all of 'em), was around 28k. There aint -no-
way any experimental will cost the sum of the parts
plus engine. Even if you're a cheap buzzard, you'll
spend a significant percentage more on add-ons,
electronics, and "finish".
Now, specific to the Bearhawk.
If you're getting a kit from Bearhawk Aircraft/AviPro
Ltd, that's a Mexican airplane, not "US". Not that it
means anything, but everything is built, manufactured,
assembled in Mexico using a 100% Mexican labor force.
Ok, cheap shot. :-)
As far as the Bearhawk itself goes, looks like a nice
plane. I'm not a fabric guy myself (I know, the wings
are metal, which is the important part, but still),
but if it fit my budget and my flight profile, I would
have looked harder at it.
As it was, Murphy has been around longer (AviPro Ltd
is a -very- new bird comparitively, not an "American"
company, no real established track record), and in
this business, a company with a longer track record is
worth something. $28k US bought everything, including
engine, for a "real" plane with a 700 lbs useful
(debatably could be higher, and only limited by engine
hp) and an airframe that is rated for an additional
200 lb above that. It'll fly 10+ hours with the
regular tanks, and has a very good track record as far
as safety goes. It's all metal, so no problems
leaving it outside, no long term issues (composite
airframe lifetime or fabric to replace). The kit and
the manufacturer have been around long enough that the
problems have been identified, and the fixes put in
place (firewall etc) or suggestions for improvements
(Ontario mods) are firm. (No, the Moose has not been
around "a long time" like the Rebel.)
The one major gripe that you hear people talk about
the Murphy is the manual. If the Murphy manual is a
issue, then don't look at the Mustang II's. (OMG) :-)
I actually think the Murphy manual is pretty decent,
but they could take a page from Zenith and buy a
digital camera and learn what a PDF is. :-) Most of
the problems would be taken care of if someone got
camera happy at the factory and put pictures (lots and
lots of pictures, digital film is cheap (joke/not a
joke), take thousands) in the manual. The fact is
that the guys working at Murphy are manly men that
don't do documentation. That's for bookworms or
non-manly men that don't build airplanes *grunt
grunt*. (I'm being funny, but it's strangely true,
talk to Stephane, Robin or Darrel and tell me it aint
true.)
As far as Dr. Blue, most of the issues that he's
speaking of were discussed in this email list long
before he bought his kit (remember: excessive
attention to detail). Murphy supports their kit as
well, and in most cases, better than any other
manufacturer. Ask Zenith, Vans, AviPro, Kitfox,
Lanceair (well, Lanceair might do it, for what their
kits cost) if they will write a blank check to their
builders? No company writes a blank check, and before
you buy a kit, you should know just what the kit
manufacturer will do. You are building it, they are
only "suggesting" a design and maybe providing parts,
that's why it's called an experimental. Ultimately,
you buy and build a kit on faith.
Unlimited support/blank checks costs alot more than
$54k US. I simpathize with Dr. Blue, but he knew what
he was getting into before he started. (I might
someday regret saying this, but...) If he didn't, he
should sell the kit now and go buy an actual airplane
like a new Cessna 206.
Rob
--- Blueraven <bluedog@ak.net> wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------Mike
Well some of his problems weren't fixed/addressed,
tho I'm not sure abt
that. I'm glad he had the forthrightness to tell me
abt them. I want to
know how a dealer treats its customers dont you.
Honesty is fun when you
right but much more important when your wrong.
The fact-is-facts part is that he had the problems,
not WHAT the
problems were..
WRH
===============
Mike Davis wrote:issue was that Brent sent youI know that you forwarded it to the list... mysimply don't think it was ainformation that is no longer 100% accurate. Ifacts is changed.fair statement to call it facts is facts when themthe Rebel has rotationallyIt wouldn't be accurate for me to tell you thatleak problem... even thoughmolded plastice fuel tanks that are a constantlong ago abandoned thatthat's how it was originally. Because they haveknow most everybody knewdesign and gone to a sealed wet wing.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Blueraven" <bluedog@ak.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [rebel-builders] Re: Murphy web site
Hey Mike,
That was me quoting the letter not him..I didnthttp://www.brentblue.com/open_letter_to_darryl.htmabout it.
WRH
==========
Mike Davis wrote:
should update yourhave been addressed byresult, but don'tof all things.
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