Hydraulic flaps

[Jesse Jenks]

Has anyone considered using the hand operated hydraulic pump for amphib gear
to power a hydraulic actuator for the flaps as well? You could pump the
flaps up and down like a Beaver. Sorry, I must be on a Beaver kick or
something.
Jesse





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[Drew Dalgleish]

I think it would be a plumbing nightmare to install all the selectors you'd
need to use the same pump for both flaperons and landing gear. I've given
some thought to using a simple hydraulic system with a master cylinder on
the roof and a slave moving the mixer up and down. This would solve the
problem of slop in the teleflex cable but I don't think it would work to
reflex the flaps. So you could add a big spring to lift the flaps but then
it might take too much effort to lower them. So my personal solution is as
usual to do nothing The teleflex cable works sort of OK and if I want to
come down right now a full forward slip can get me a descent of over 2000fpm.

At 03:39 PM 2/5/2006 -0800, you wrote:

Has anyone considered using the hand operated hydraulic pump for amphib gear
to power a hydraulic actuator for the flaps as well? You could pump the
flaps up and down like a Beaver. Sorry, I must be on a Beaver kick or
something.
Jesse





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Drew





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[WALTER KLATT]

While many have complained about the slack in the stock system, this is not an item that I would change if I was building again. First, the only time I really needed full flap on my Rebel was for amphib take-offs both on water and land, and the stock system did the job just fine. Landings are just half flap. The stock system also works well with reflex. The only nice change would be the dog leg handle, but I don't even have that on mine. On wheels, you seldom need full flap, but they do really work if you want to drag it in with a little power to a short field. Should be no problem in coming to a stop in 400 feet or so, if you really want to. Take-offs on land for me were always faster than landing, so that was never an issue (with an 0320).

Remember, too, that these things all add weight, cost, and time, so you need to pick and choose which mods are really necessary. Unless you like building more than flying...

JMHO
Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
Date: Monday, February 6, 2006 12:46 pm
Subject: Re: Hydraulic flaps

I think it would be a plumbing nightmare to install all the
selectors you'd
need to use the same pump for both flaperons and landing gear.
I've given
some thought to using a simple hydraulic system with a master
cylinder on
the roof and a slave moving the mixer up and down. This would
solve the
problem of slop in the teleflex cable but I don't think it would
work to
reflex the flaps. So you could add a big spring to lift the flaps
but then
it might take too much effort to lower them. So my personal
solution is as
usual to do nothing The teleflex cable works sort of OK and if I
want to
come down right now a full forward slip can get me a descent of
over 2000fpm.

At 03:39 PM 2/5/2006 -0800, you wrote:

Has anyone considered using the hand operated hydraulic pump for

amphib gear

to power a hydraulic actuator for the flaps as well? You could

pump the

flaps up and down like a Beaver. Sorry, I must be on a Beaver

kick or

something.
Jesse





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Drew





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[Jesse Jenks]

Drew and Walter,
Thanks for the input. You're cautions against adding complexity and weight
are noted, and I am only looking at this as a far-out possibility. As a
theoretical thing, it's still an interesting idea to me.
Wouldn't it be possible to just add another hydraulic "circuit" coming out
of the pump? The flap selector would need to have a neutral position that
would allow pressure to return to the reservoir while locking pressure in
both sides of the flap actuator. This way you could run the the gear without
moving the flaps. When running the flaps, pressure would also go to the
gear, but would only act to hold the gear in the selected position.
Alternatively, you could use a gear selector with a neutral position as
well.The Piper Navajo has a gear selector that returns to neutral
automatically when hydraulic pressure reaches a certain value after gear
extension or retraction, allowing fluid to circulate continuously in the
system. That system uses two engine driven pumps that obviously run whenever
the engines do, which is most of the time in my experience.
With a two way actuator wouldn't it be simple to get reflex? If you have the
pump mounted between the seats, wouldn't it be a pretty easy plumbing job to
route lines over to the left side to an actuator attached to the mixer arm
in the same location the teleflex would? If you wanted the selector on the
instrument panel, that would be more lines of course, but it seems like
there wouldn't be much of a net weight change. An actuator, lines and
selector, a bit more fluid. You would shed the teleflex, flap handle, and
reinforcements to the roof.
A position indicator would be an integral part of the system because the
flap angle would be infinitely adjustable and would not have any "notches".
You could make a simple indicator on the instrument panel using a small
diameter flexible pushrod (a model airplane pushrod would work) from the
mixer arm to the indicator.
Oh well, that's the kind of thing I think about to keep myself awake when
driving to work at 4:00 am.
Jesse

From: WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Hydraulic flaps
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:53:49 -0800

While many have complained about the slack in the stock system, this is not
an item that I would change if I was building again. First, the only time I
really needed full flap on my Rebel was for amphib take-offs both on water
and land, and the stock system did the job just fine. Landings are just
half flap. The stock system also works well with reflex. The only nice
change would be the dog leg handle, but I don't even have that on mine. On
wheels, you seldom need full flap, but they do really work if you want to
drag it in with a little power to a short field. Should be no problem in
coming to a stop in 400 feet or so, if you really want to. Take-offs on
land for me were always faster than landing, so that was never an issue
(with an 0320).

Remember, too, that these things all add weight, cost, and time, so you
need to pick and choose which mods are really necessary. Unless you like
building more than flying...

JMHO
Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
Date: Monday, February 6, 2006 12:46 pm
Subject: Re: Hydraulic flaps

I think it would be a plumbing nightmare to install all the
selectors you'd
need to use the same pump for both flaperons and landing gear.
I've given
some thought to using a simple hydraulic system with a master
cylinder on
the roof and a slave moving the mixer up and down. This would
solve the
problem of slop in the teleflex cable but I don't think it would
work to
reflex the flaps. So you could add a big spring to lift the flaps
but then
it might take too much effort to lower them. So my personal
solution is as
usual to do nothing The teleflex cable works sort of OK and if I
want to
come down right now a full forward slip can get me a descent of
over 2000fpm.

At 03:39 PM 2/5/2006 -0800, you wrote:

Has anyone considered using the hand operated hydraulic pump for

amphib gear

to power a hydraulic actuator for the flaps as well? You could

pump the

flaps up and down like a Beaver. Sorry, I must be on a Beaver

kick or

something.
Jesse





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Drew





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[Ken]

Unfortunately there have also been fatal crashes from sudden uncommanded
manual hydraulic flap retraction as well. At least one that I know of in
an early model Otter which I think is very similar to the Beaver system
that you mentioned. IIRC the redesign involved the $elector valve, a
mechanical elevator trim tab linked to the flaps, and pilot procedure.
Even the expert$ have messed this up so it may not be real simple to do
it safely.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Drew and Walter,
Thanks for the input. You're cautions against adding complexity and weight
are noted, and I am only looking at this as a far-out possibility. As a
theoretical thing, it's still an interesting idea to me.
Wouldn't it be possible to just add another hydraulic "circuit" coming out
of the pump? The flap selector would need to have a neutral position that
would allow pressure to return to the reservoir while locking pressure in
both sides of the flap actuator. This way you could run the the gear without
moving the flaps. When running the flaps, pressure would also go to the
gear, but would only act to hold the gear in the selected position.
Alternatively, you could use a gear selector with a neutral position as
well.The Piper Navajo has a gear selector that returns to neutral
automatically when hydraulic pressure reaches a certain value after gear
extension or retraction, allowing fluid to circulate continuously in the
system. That system uses two engine driven pumps that obviously run whenever
the engines do, which is most of the time in my experience.
With a two way actuator wouldn't it be simple to get reflex? If you have the
pump mounted between the seats, wouldn't it be a pretty easy plumbing job to
route lines over to the left side to an actuator attached to the mixer arm
in the same location the teleflex would? If you wanted the selector on the
instrument panel, that would be more lines of course, but it seems like
there wouldn't be much of a net weight change. An actuator, lines and
selector, a bit more fluid. You would shed the teleflex, flap handle, and
reinforcements to the roof.
A position indicator would be an integral part of the system because the
flap angle would be infinitely adjustable and would not have any "notches".
You could make a simple indicator on the instrument panel using a small
diameter flexible pushrod (a model airplane pushrod would work) from the
mixer arm to the indicator.
Oh well, that's the kind of thing I think about to keep myself awake when
driving to work at 4:00 am.
Jesse

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Jesse !

If you want something to keep you awake on those early morning
drives - get a copy of the early Oshkosh Tower Tape ! A few minutes
of that, and I'm wide awake and looking all over the place to try to
see that "yellow Piper coming up on the outside ..." !! :-) :-)

I didn't know there WAS a 4 o'clock in the Morning - in fact,
was quite surprised to discover there were TWO " 9 O'clocks" !! ;-)
(Don't usually get up until "the crack of noon" !) ;-) :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 06 February 2006 09:13 pm, Jesse Jenks wrote:

Drew and Walter,
Thanks for the input. You're cautions against adding complexity and
weight are noted, and I am only looking at this as a far-out possibility.
As a theoretical thing, it's still an interesting idea to me.
Wouldn't it be possible to just add another hydraulic "circuit" coming
out of the pump? The flap selector would need to have a neutral position
that would allow pressure to return to the reservoir while locking
pressure in both sides of the flap actuator. This way you could run the
the gear without moving the flaps. When running the flaps, pressure would
also go to the gear, but would only act to hold the gear in the selected
position. Alternatively, you could use a gear selector with a neutral
position as well.The Piper Navajo has a gear selector that returns to
neutral automatically when hydraulic pressure reaches a certain value
after gear extension or retraction, allowing fluid to circulate
continuously in the system. That system uses two engine driven pumps that
obviously run whenever the engines do, which is most of the time in my
experience.
With a two way actuator wouldn't it be simple to get reflex? If you have
the pump mounted between the seats, wouldn't it be a pretty easy plumbing
job to route lines over to the left side to an actuator attached to the
mixer arm in the same location the teleflex would? If you wanted the
selector on the instrument panel, that would be more lines of course, but
it seems like there wouldn't be much of a net weight change. An actuator,
lines and selector, a bit more fluid. You would shed the teleflex, flap
handle, and reinforcements to the roof.
A position indicator would be an integral part of the system because the
flap angle would be infinitely adjustable and would not have any
"notches". You could make a simple indicator on the instrument panel
using a small diameter flexible pushrod (a model airplane pushrod would
work) from the mixer arm to the indicator.
Oh well, that's the kind of thing I think about to keep myself awake when
driving to work at 4:00 am.
Jesse

From: WALTER KLATT <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Hydraulic flaps
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:53:49 -0800

While many have complained about the slack in the stock system, this is
not an item that I would change if I was building again. First, the
only time I really needed full flap on my Rebel was for amphib
take-offs both on water and land, and the stock system did the job just
fine. Landings are just half flap. The stock system also works well
with reflex. The only nice change would be the dog leg handle, but I
don't even have that on mine. On wheels, you seldom need full flap, but
they do really work if you want to drag it in with a little power to a
short field. Should be no problem in coming to a stop in 400 feet or
so, if you really want to. Take-offs on land for me were always faster
than landing, so that was never an issue (with an 0320).

Remember, too, that these things all add weight, cost, and time, so you
need to pick and choose which mods are really necessary. Unless you like
building more than flying...

JMHO
Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Drew Dalgleish <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
Date: Monday, February 6, 2006 12:46 pm
Subject: Re: Hydraulic flaps

I think it would be a plumbing nightmare to install all the
selectors you'd
need to use the same pump for both flaperons and landing gear.
I've given
some thought to using a simple hydraulic system with a master
cylinder on
the roof and a slave moving the mixer up and down. This would
solve the
problem of slop in the teleflex cable but I don't think it would
work to
reflex the flaps. So you could add a big spring to lift the flaps
but then
it might take too much effort to lower them. So my personal
solution is as
usual to do nothing The teleflex cable works sort of OK and if I
want to
come down right now a full forward slip can get me a descent of
over 2000fpm.

At 03:39 PM 2/5/2006 -0800, you wrote: amphib gear
pump the
kick or
Drew





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[Al Paxhia]

Hi Jesse,
I have a little Beaver time and I like the hydraulic flaps but in the 570
Moose hours I like the teleflex setup I have better. In the Beaver if the
selector position is manual and I have to remember to put it in the down
position every time the flaps are moved, otherwise the flaps can go the
wrong way. There have been many times when I have used the flaps with gusto.
With the Johnson bar the flaps go in or go out just as fast or slow as
needed to get the job done, there is no mistake, pull bar flaps down,
release bar flaps up. IMHO the mechanical flaps are the best solution for
the Moose. If you must stay awake at night, figure out how to get it built
faster, it's a lot more fun flying it than building, but that's me.
Al
Moose N526AP
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: Hydraulic flaps

Unfortunately there have also been fatal crashes from sudden uncommanded
manual hydraulic flap retraction as well. At least one that I know of in
an early model Otter which I think is very similar to the Beaver system
that you mentioned. IIRC the redesign involved the $elector valve, a
mechanical elevator trim tab linked to the flaps, and pilot procedure.
Even the expert$ have messed this up so it may not be real simple to do
it safely.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Drew and Walter,
Thanks for the input. You're cautions against adding complexity and weight
are noted, and I am only looking at this as a far-out possibility. As a
theoretical thing, it's still an interesting idea to me.
Wouldn't it be possible to just add another hydraulic "circuit" coming out
of the pump? The flap selector would need to have a neutral position that
would allow pressure to return to the reservoir while locking pressure in
both sides of the flap actuator. This way you could run the the gear
without
moving the flaps. When running the flaps, pressure would also go to the
gear, but would only act to hold the gear in the selected position.
Alternatively, you could use a gear selector with a neutral position as
well.The Piper Navajo has a gear selector that returns to neutral
automatically when hydraulic pressure reaches a certain value after gear
extension or retraction, allowing fluid to circulate continuously in the
system. That system uses two engine driven pumps that obviously run
whenever
the engines do, which is most of the time in my experience.
With a two way actuator wouldn't it be simple to get reflex? If you have
the
pump mounted between the seats, wouldn't it be a pretty easy plumbing job
to
route lines over to the left side to an actuator attached to the mixer arm
in the same location the teleflex would? If you wanted the selector on the
instrument panel, that would be more lines of course, but it seems like
there wouldn't be much of a net weight change. An actuator, lines and
selector, a bit more fluid. You would shed the teleflex, flap handle, and
reinforcements to the roof.
A position indicator would be an integral part of the system because the
flap angle would be infinitely adjustable and would not have any
"notches".
You could make a simple indicator on the instrument panel using a small
diameter flexible pushrod (a model airplane pushrod would work) from the
mixer arm to the indicator.
Oh well, that's the kind of thing I think about to keep myself awake when
driving to work at 4:00 am.
Jesse

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