The Murphy Builders Site

I'm considering visiting a friend in northern Alberta and the only
reasonably close site to land is the lake they are on. It is generally
pretty clear of snow and at least 2 miles long. No breaks in the ice and
about 20" thick. Cars drive on it all the time. There are some 6"
diameter fishing holes which tend to fill in over night with ice about
3" thick. I could perhaps catch a tailwheel in one as someone suggested
earlier.

What are the hazards of doing this on wheels in a taildragger like a
rebel? Is it easy to tell how high you are off the surface? How far
would a rebel take to stop on clear ice? How deep a snow pack will the
rebel handle without nosing over - fresh snow I suppose. I've never
tried an ice landing in any aircraft and a bit of info would certainly
help.
--
Garry Wright
R-068 C-FOKM
403 931 1573
wrightdg@davincibb.net




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Garry:

I have landed my Rebel on wheels on a packed snow runway on a lake with
no problems. I did however physically check out the snow pack before
landing. I would personally not chance landing with any accumulation of
loose snow more than 1-1.5 inches. Treat it like a soft field landing.

As for landing on bare ice landing on wheels is much better than with
straight skis. Yes you will need to give yourself more room to stop vs
a paved runway but generally not a problem. Be careful in crosswind
that you don't slide sideways and be very slow before trying to turn.
If you start sliding sideways a tire can catch on ice cracks, snow etc.

I believe AC 43.13 has ice thickness recommendations in it. Here in
Northwestern Ontario I would not hesitate to land on 8 inches of blue
ice with my Rebel. Blue ice being solid ice (not frozen slush) and the
temperature being below 28F. I routinely land on bare ice in the spring
with straight skis. It certainly can take some time to stop (no brakes)
and even not being able to stop with the engine running.

Visually seeing the surface will not be a problem unless you are in a
whiteout. Whiteout situations are normally heavily overcast days, long
horizon look and no visual marks in the snow. If you have snow machine
tracks bored ice holes, debris etc. then generally surface visibility
will not be a problem.

When landing or taxing be aware of and avoid areas where drilling has
been done as the area around the hole can have frozen humps of ice that
would be like hitting large rocks on a grass strip.


Thank you,

Del Schmucker
Information Systems Manager
Keewatin-Patricia District School Board
807-223-1254
807-221-8769 Cell
807-223-4703 Fax
del.schmucker@kpdsb.on.ca
www.kpdsb.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
wrightdg
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 10:54 PM
To: rebel builders
Subject: ice landings on lakes

I'm considering visiting a friend in northern Alberta and the only
reasonably close site to land is the lake they are on. It is generally
pretty clear of snow and at least 2 miles long. No breaks in the ice and
about 20" thick. Cars drive on it all the time. There are some 6"
diameter fishing holes which tend to fill in over night with ice about
3" thick. I could perhaps catch a tailwheel in one as someone suggested
earlier.

What are the hazards of doing this on wheels in a taildragger like a
rebel? Is it easy to tell how high you are off the surface? How far
would a rebel take to stop on clear ice? How deep a snow pack will the
rebel handle without nosing over - fresh snow I suppose. I've never
tried an ice landing in any aircraft and a bit of info would certainly
help.
--
Garry Wright
R-068 C-FOKM
403 931 1573
wrightdg@davincibb.net




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Thanks Del. I got similar comments about flat light from my AME who is a
water bomber pilot from Yellowknife (summers). I may be doing this
fairly soon solo. My wife was skittish to say the least until I screwed
up my floats last summer. Now she's downright paranoid. I guess like a
lot of others, most of my flying will be solo from now on. Cheers


On Wed, 2006-01-02 at 11:34 -0600, Schmucker, Del wrote:

Garry:

I have landed my Rebel on wheels on a packed snow runway on a lake with
no problems. I did however physically check out the snow pack before
landing. I would personally not chance landing with any accumulation of
loose snow more than 1-1.5 inches. Treat it like a soft field landing.

As for landing on bare ice landing on wheels is much better than with
straight skis. Yes you will need to give yourself more room to stop vs
a paved runway but generally not a problem. Be careful in crosswind
that you don't slide sideways and be very slow before trying to turn.
If you start sliding sideways a tire can catch on ice cracks, snow etc.

I believe AC 43.13 has ice thickness recommendations in it. Here in
Northwestern Ontario I would not hesitate to land on 8 inches of blue
ice with my Rebel. Blue ice being solid ice (not frozen slush) and the
temperature being below 28F. I routinely land on bare ice in the spring
with straight skis. It certainly can take some time to stop (no brakes)
and even not being able to stop with the engine running.

Visually seeing the surface will not be a problem unless you are in a
whiteout. Whiteout situations are normally heavily overcast days, long
horizon look and no visual marks in the snow. If you have snow machine
tracks bored ice holes, debris etc. then generally surface visibility
will not be a problem.

When landing or taxing be aware of and avoid areas where drilling has
been done as the area around the hole can have frozen humps of ice that
would be like hitting large rocks on a grass strip.


Thank you,

Del Schmucker
Information Systems Manager
Keewatin-Patricia District School Board
807-223-1254
807-221-8769 Cell
807-223-4703 Fax
del.schmucker@kpdsb.on.ca
www.kpdsb.on.ca

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
wrightdg
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 10:54 PM
To: rebel builders
Subject: ice landings on lakes

I'm considering visiting a friend in northern Alberta and the only
reasonably close site to land is the lake they are on. It is generally
pretty clear of snow and at least 2 miles long. No breaks in the ice and
about 20" thick. Cars drive on it all the time. There are some 6"
diameter fishing holes which tend to fill in over night with ice about
3" thick. I could perhaps catch a tailwheel in one as someone suggested
earlier.

What are the hazards of doing this on wheels in a taildragger like a
rebel? Is it easy to tell how high you are off the surface? How far
would a rebel take to stop on clear ice? How deep a snow pack will the
rebel handle without nosing over - fresh snow I suppose. I've never
tried an ice landing in any aircraft and a bit of info would certainly
help.

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