The Murphy Builders Site

Hi John !

Matco make a silver wheel that has much better braking - only
a bit heavier..... or maybe the silver wheel brakes could be
fitted....

The Rotec engines do look good, especially on a Renegade,
BUT - they are a LOT heavier -- in the 220 - 240 lb range,
vs about 158 for a complete installed 912, with oil & coolant...
I'm with you on the Jabirus - still old air-cooled technology,
and they are also heavier than the 912, for less power...

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 January 2006 12:40 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Thanks Bob,

More excellent information I can use. I do have the gold wheels and
the Matco lady at Oshkosh has told me there are ways to improve the
brakes; though I've considered new wheels and brakes as the previous
kit owner let corrosion steal the pretty. The Rotax has jumped way
up in my considerations as the Jabiru owners at my local EAA chapter
have had to open theirs up and fix the insides too often, on low time
engines, to suit me. But just like with women, beautiful still turns
my head so I keep drooling on the Rotec pictures; they ran me off at
Oshkosh -- said I was going to make it all rusty.

John...


At 10:16 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:

Hi John !

I totally agree with your approach - as I understand the
US regs at the moment, building as EXPERIMENTAL, at the LSA
weight, gives you all the advantages of BOTH worlds - and,
as an EXPERIMENTAL, if you sell it to someone who wants to
install an O-320, they can just do that ! Can't fly with
an LSA licence, but gross can go up to 1650, no problem...

You can definitely reduce the size of the fuel tanks -
the stock Rebel has about 50 % more fuel than a C-172 !!
We flew our Rebel all over North America with 10 1/2 gal tank
capacity (and an 'auxiliary' tank in the baggage area on
trips .... ;-) ).

Most folks with 912s reduce to 2 bays per side, instead of 3,
and several have 1 bay on the left, and 2 on the right. At about
8 gallons/bay, this still gives LOTS of fuel, at about 4 - 5 gph !
And you can always use a red gas can in the baggage area for
an extra hour or so of range .... the 912 fuel pump can do this
with no problem !

Reducing the tank size saves weight, because you have a
smaller area of the thicker tank skin, as well as less fuel.
It makes no sense at all to carry 300 lb of fuel around that
you will never burn - 'way beyond bladder range !! And you
will get condensation, and fuel flow problems if you try to
run around with only a few gallons in the bottom of the
big tanks !!!!!

While the other engines are tempting, the 912 is a VERY
well proven, reliable, and low maintenance engine - there are
several now flying with over 4,000 hours without overhaul !
Ours took over 600 hours to break in !

The firewall plates help with strength and C of G -
if you are going Rotax, ask for a longer mount than the old MAM
standard - a good 4" farther forward would be really nice !
Also, you definitely can improve on the old radiator & oil cooler
setup - mount them to the engine mount, NOT the cowling !!
With the 912-ULS, go with the Rotax intake & exhaust - otherwise,
you lose over 5 hp ! (Another reason for an improved engine mount -
the old one might not accomodate the exhaust system ...)

Are the Matco wheels that you have SILVER coloured ???
If so, you are fine ! If they are GOLD, you are still ok with
a 912, but you will have VERY little braking -- not even enough
to hold the Rebel for full-power run-ups ! If you are going
with the die spring gear, you really shouls add Gord Mohr's
gear kit, with bushing inserts in the tops of the gear legs, as it
moves all the time with die springs. The gear is NOT supposed
to move with the bungees, except to prevent structural damage !
(NOT like Cubs ....) A good reason to use the fat DICO or
Carlyle tires ! :-)


......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 18 January 2006 09:18 pm, John Kramer wrote:

65c/shopdata/index.shopscript

================== SNIP ! ==================================



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Hi Bob, I'm told by Jabiru that 3300 is 120 HP and approx. the same
price as a 912S give or take a few $$$
The installed engine wieight is about 180lbs. I'm still not sure exactly
what that includes.

Jim
Rebel 333

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi John !

Matco make a silver wheel that has much better braking - only
a bit heavier..... or maybe the silver wheel brakes could be
fitted....

The Rotec engines do look good, especially on a Renegade,
BUT - they are a LOT heavier -- in the 220 - 240 lb range,
vs about 158 for a complete installed 912, with oil & coolant...
I'm with you on the Jabirus - still old air-cooled technology,
and they are also heavier than the 912, for less power...

.....bobp

Hi Bob, I'm told by Jabiru that 3300 is 120 HP and approx. the same
price as a 912S give or take a few $$$
The installed engine wieight is about 180lbs. I'm still not sure exactly
what that includes.

Jim
Rebel 333

From: Jim Cole <jcole@rangroup.com>
Sent: Jan 19, 2006 3:20 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Jabiru

Hi Bob, I'm told by Jabiru that 3300 is 120 HP and approx. the same
price as a 912S give or take a few $$$
The installed engine wieight is about 180lbs. I'm still not sure exactly
what that includes.

Jim
Rebel 333

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi John !

Matco make a silver wheel that has much better braking - only
a bit heavier..... or maybe the silver wheel brakes could be
fitted....

The Rotec engines do look good, especially on a Renegade,
BUT - they are a LOT heavier -- in the 220 - 240 lb range,
vs about 158 for a complete installed 912, with oil & coolant...
I'm with you on the Jabirus - still old air-cooled technology,
and they are also heavier than the 912, for less power...

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 January 2006 12:40 pm, John Kramer wrote:

Thanks Bob,

More excellent information I can use. I do have the gold wheels and
the Matco lady at Oshkosh has told me there are ways to improve the
brakes; though I've considered new wheels and brakes as the previous
kit owner let corrosion steal the pretty. The Rotax has jumped way
up in my considerations as the Jabiru owners at my local EAA chapter
have had to open theirs up and fix the insides too often, on low time
engines, to suit me. But just like with women, beautiful still turns
my head so I keep drooling on the Rotec pictures; they ran me off at
Oshkosh -- said I was going to make it all rusty.

John...


At 10:16 PM 01/18/06, you wrote:


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fly too low or too slow and the ground will rise up and smite thee.





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From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Sent: Jan 19, 2006 4:29 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Jabiru


Hi Jim !

Wellllllll...... there's horses, and there's ponies ! ;-)

If you get a chance, talk to the Zenith operators a Kitchener A/P -
they had 4 rental 601's, 3 with 912's, and one with a Jabiru 2200,
touted as an 85 hp. replacement for the 912. They told me that nobody
would fly the Jab on hot days - seems the performance put it closer to
60 hp !

If you read the specs on the 3300, peak power comes at 3300 rpm,
and you only get 112 at 2,850 rpm, about 107 at 2,750.... and those are
'advertised' (remember the 2200 ...). And 26 liters/hr (6.87 USG) - from
their published spec. sheet - the web site claims 5.1 USG/hr .... hmmmm..
both at 75% power. Maybe a bit like the horsepower stats ....
To keep the prop effective, the length must be in the 60 - 64" range -
- and with the Rebel's 44 inch wide fuselage, there's not much prop out
there pulling ! The Jab's work best in narrow, fast airplanes like the
Sonex, where there's lower load.

A large, slow turning prop is most efficient - the 912 can swing
a 72" prop, turning in the 2,000 - 2,400 rpm range, and the gear drive
gives more torque - generally, more thrust, which is good for accelerating
and climbing out of small strips. Rotax lists the installed weight of
a 912-ULS, with radiator, exhaust, etc, at 141 lb., a regular 912 at 135 lb.
Fuel consumption for a 912-ULS, at 75%, is listed as 20 liters/hr. - a
significant saving ! Some of the Jabiru's fuel goes for cooling ! ;-)

In any case, you still have an air cooled engine, with extra concerns
about shock cooling, and the baffles make it awkward to get at it for
service...

I don't know what the highest time Jabiru is, but I've heard of 912's
with over 4,000 hours without overhaul .... Certainly, ours took 600 hours
just to break in !

FWIW, Murphy now has a few overhauled 912-ULS engines available from
the distributor - full warranty, and a fair cost saving !! If you have
a Murphy kit, you will get OEM pricing, as usual ....

As always, it's a matter of builders choice ! I'm pretty sure my
next Rebel will have a 912-ULS .... If someone has a Rebel flying
with a Jabiru 3300, I'd be delighted to fly it for comparison ! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 January 2006 03:20 pm, Jim Cole wrote:

Hi Bob, I'm told by Jabiru that 3300 is 120 HP and approx. the same
price as a 912S give or take a few $$$
The installed engine wieight is about 180lbs. I'm still not sure exactly
what that includes.

Jim
Rebel 333

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi John !

Matco make a silver wheel that has much better braking - only
a bit heavier..... or maybe the silver wheel brakes could be
fitted....

The Rotec engines do look good, especially on a Renegade,
BUT - they are a LOT heavier -- in the 220 - 240 lb range,
vs about 158 for a complete installed 912, with oil & coolant...
I'm with you on the Jabirus - still old air-cooled technology,
and they are also heavier than the 912, for less power...

.....bobp

================== SNIP ! ============================



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