The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:33 pm**

G'day Everyone !!!

Does ANYONE know how our Rebels behave in a SPIN Test - with leading edge cuffs on the wings ?????
(doing a bit of research "down here"

MERRY CHRISSY everyone !!!

From Rick & Wendy Harper
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Hepburn
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Rudder fairleads

Mike, on going through these bulkheads, yes you do. I liked somebody's idea
about using a laser pointer and a plastic dummy bulkhead to align the holes,
but I had the permaent bulkhead already in place before I takled this
problem. There's no perfect alignment, beacuse movement of the rudder horn
attach point means that the cable is always going to be dragging sideways on
the most aft fairlead at some point in its travel, unless the holes in the
bulkhead and fuselage side are enormous. I actually wound up placing a
fairlead at the aft end of the slot through the fuselage skin to keep things
aligned. I'd prefer less fairleads as there's quite a bit of drag in the
system, especially with water rudders added.

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:33 pm**

Hi Rick !

There's some stuff in the archives - this year - on this subject.
The short answer is - just barely ! ;-) It's hard to get it to
spin, you have to hold it in, and, with the right c of g, it turns
into a gentle, nodding turn at less than 40 mph - could be a very
safe way to come down through cloud. Or ... you can just pull the
power, pull the stick right back slowly, and wait - it'll just nod on
down gently, perfectly stable, at a very low speed !!

After test flying Pierre's this summer, I'm convinced that the
Rebel, set up that way, (cuffs & tips) has got to be one of the safest,
best performing airplanes out there !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 21 December 2005 07:54 am, Rick Harper wrote:

G'day Everyone !!!

Does ANYONE know how our Rebels behave in a SPIN Test - with leading

edge cuffs on the wings ?????

(doing a bit of research "down here"

MERRY CHRISSY everyone !!!

From Rick & Wendy Harper
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Hepburn
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Rudder fairleads

Mike, on going through these bulkheads, yes you do. I liked somebody's

idea

about using a laser pointer and a plastic dummy bulkhead to align the

holes,

but I had the permaent bulkhead already in place before I takled this
problem. There's no perfect alignment, beacuse movement of the rudder

horn

attach point means that the cable is always going to be dragging

sideways on

the most aft fairlead at some point in its travel, unless the holes in

the

bulkhead and fuselage side are enormous. I actually wound up placing a
fairlead at the aft end of the slot through the fuselage skin to keep

things

aligned. I'd prefer less fairleads as there's quite a bit of drag in

the

system, especially with water rudders added.

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:36 pm**

Been inactive for over a year due to a military
transfer but am back up and about to start my wings.

Bob, how do think the Rebel with the cuffs and Daves
tips compares to a moderately set up Super cub? I have
Daves tip and will install them when I get to that
point. I have also talked to Angus about his cuffs and
will probably install them also.

I bought a 7AC Champ this summer to get some tail
wheel time in. It is converted to a CCM I believe as
it as a 0-235. I was having a ball flying it until I
had to come back to Hawaii.

--- Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca> wrote:

Hi Rick !

There's some stuff in the archives - this year -
on this subject.
The short answer is - just barely ! ;-) It's hard
to get it to
spin, you have to hold it in, and, with the right c
of g, it turns
into a gentle, nodding turn at less than 40 mph -
could be a very
safe way to come down through cloud. Or ... you can
just pull the
power, pull the stick right back slowly, and wait -
it'll just nod on
down gently, perfectly stable, at a very low speed
!!

After test flying Pierre's this summer, I'm
convinced that the
Rebel, set up that way, (cuffs & tips) has got to be
one of the safest,
best performing airplanes out there !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Wednesday 21 December 2005 07:54 am, Rick Harper
wrote:
G'day Everyone !!!

Does ANYONE know how our Rebels behave in a
SPIN Test - with leading
edge cuffs on the wings ?????
(doing a bit of research "down here"

MERRY CHRISSY everyone !!!

From Rick & Wendy Harper
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Hepburn
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Rudder fairleads

Mike, on going through these bulkheads, yes you
do. I liked somebody's
idea
about using a laser pointer and a plastic dummy
bulkhead to align the
holes,
but I had the permaent bulkhead already in place
before I takled this
problem. There's no perfect alignment, beacuse
movement of the rudder
horn
attach point means that the cable is always
going to be dragging
sideways on
the most aft fairlead at some point in its
travel, unless the holes in
the
bulkhead and fuselage side are enormous. I
actually wound up placing a
fairlead at the aft end of the slot through the
fuselage skin to keep
things
aligned. I'd prefer less fairleads as there's
quite a bit of drag in
the
system, especially with water rudders added.

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:36 pm**

WOW that's a plug .... Thanks Bob !

Rick
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel SPIN tests with leading edge cuffs on

Hi Rick !

There's some stuff in the archives - this year - on this subject.
The short answer is - just barely ! ;-) It's hard to get it to
spin, you have to hold it in, and, with the right c of g, it turns
into a gentle, nodding turn at less than 40 mph - could be a very
safe way to come down through cloud. Or ... you can just pull the
power, pull the stick right back slowly, and wait - it'll just nod on
down gently, perfectly stable, at a very low speed !!

After test flying Pierre's this summer, I'm convinced that the
Rebel, set up that way, (cuffs & tips) has got to be one of the safest,
best performing airplanes out there !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 21 December 2005 07:54 am, Rick Harper wrote:

G'day Everyone !!!

Does ANYONE know how our Rebels behave in a SPIN Test - with leading

edge cuffs on the wings ?????

(doing a bit of research "down here"

MERRY CHRISSY everyone !!!

From Rick & Wendy Harper
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Hepburn
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Rudder fairleads

Mike, on going through these bulkheads, yes you do. I liked somebody's

idea

about using a laser pointer and a plastic dummy bulkhead to align the

holes,

but I had the permaent bulkhead already in place before I takled this
problem. There's no perfect alignment, beacuse movement of the rudder

horn

attach point means that the cable is always going to be dragging

sideways on

the most aft fairlead at some point in its travel, unless the holes in

the

bulkhead and fuselage side are enormous. I actually wound up placing a
fairlead at the aft end of the slot through the fuselage skin to keep

things

aligned. I'd prefer less fairleads as there's quite a bit of drag in

the

system, especially with water rudders added.

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:36 pm**

Welcome back, Keith !

Glad to hear you're getting some flying in -
the Champ can be a lot of fun - started on 65 Champs in
1957. Picked up the first 95 hp Champ in Canada for the
the flying club, in 1959 - THAT was luxury - electrics, and
a starter, and a real HEATER !!! :-)

Been towing gliders with 150 and 180 hp Super Cubs since
the early '70s - probably the best towplane out here, for
performance & flying qualities (not necessarily for pilot
comfort, though ... ;-) ) In terms of handling and
safety the Rebel wins hands down - it hasn't a mean bone in
its body !! :-) The Cub can get a bit nasty if you're
too slow and a bit rough with it - it will bite. Also,
it can be hard to get a good landing without a skip or
2, especially after towing for a couple of hours ...
that's how I knew it was time for a break !

Pierre's Ultimate Rebel, with the Fife Hoerner tips,
McKenzie STOL cuffs & fences, and NWA VGs, .... plus the
polished, ported, balanced XP-360 (195 hp !!) is THE nicest
Rebel I've flown. I saw 2,100 fpm climb in the August heat,
and it would climb almost as steep as you wanted to pull !!
At 46 mph, it was still going up over 1500 fpm, and if you pulled
harder, it just nodded & kept going. The angle is so
extreme, you really want to hang onto something ! :-)
(See pics & video in the archives ...)
His empty C of G is somewhere around the 13" mark.
The landings are so slow & gentle that you almost need
the old Ace McCool "Have landed" sign ! :-)

In several spin tests, it would only stay in about
1 turn or less, then it turned into a gentle, nodding
turn at 40 - 42 mph, with the stick all the way back,
full rudder, and full opposite aileron, - same reaction
both left and right ! Such a pussycat !
Just relax on the stick, and you're flying again.
Of course, it flies hands off in level flight.

The original Prince prop was too fine, and it now
has one 3" coarser - hit it right this time ! It will
do about 143 mph straight & level, at 2,700 rpm - and
about 13 - 14 gph. This still gives a solid 1,800 fpm
climb .... Can't wait to try it on the Murphy 1800
amphibs that are painted up, in the shop, waiting for
spring.

The instructor I flew with in 1957 is still active, and
has flown several Rebels. So far, he was not really excited
about them (some were a bit rough ...) - but he LIKES this
one !! ;-) :-)

You're going to love your Rebel !
Keep rivetting, it IS worth it !! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 21 December 2005 02:42 pm, Keith Leitch wrote:

Been inactive for over a year due to a military
transfer but am back up and about to start my wings.

Bob, how do think the Rebel with the cuffs and Daves
tips compares to a moderately set up Super cub? I have
Daves tip and will install them when I get to that
point. I have also talked to Angus about his cuffs and
will probably install them also.

I bought a 7AC Champ this summer to get some tail
wheel time in. It is converted to a CCM I believe as
it as a 0-235. I was having a ball flying it until I
had to come back to Hawaii.

--- Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca> wrote:

Hi Rick !

There's some stuff in the archives - this year -
on this subject.
The short answer is - just barely ! ;-) It's hard
to get it to
spin, you have to hold it in, and, with the right c
of g, it turns
into a gentle, nodding turn at less than 40 mph -
could be a very
safe way to come down through cloud. Or ... you can
just pull the
power, pull the stick right back slowly, and wait -
it'll just nod on
down gently, perfectly stable, at a very low speed
!!

After test flying Pierre's this summer, I'm
convinced that the
Rebel, set up that way, (cuffs & tips) has got to be
one of the safest,
best performing airplanes out there !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 21 December 2005 07:54 am, Rick Harper
wrote:
G'day Everyone !!!

Does ANYONE know how our Rebels behave in a
SPIN Test - with leading
edge cuffs on the wings ?????
(doing a bit of research "down here"

MERRY CHRISSY everyone !!!

From Rick & Wendy Harper
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Hepburn
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: Rudder fairleads

Mike, on going through these bulkheads, yes you
do. I liked somebody's
idea
about using a laser pointer and a plastic dummy
bulkhead to align the
holes,
but I had the permaent bulkhead already in place
before I takled this
problem. There's no perfect alignment, beacuse
movement of the rudder
horn
attach point means that the cable is always
going to be dragging
sideways on
the most aft fairlead at some point in its
travel, unless the holes in
the
bulkhead and fuselage side are enormous. I
actually wound up placing a
fairlead at the aft end of the slot through the
fuselage skin to keep
things
aligned. I'd prefer less fairleads as there's
quite a bit of drag in
the
system, especially with water rudders added.

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:36 pm**

25 lbs or so of hydraulic pump way back in the tail sure moves the C of G !
Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

snip
Pierre's Ultimate Rebel, with the Fife Hoerner tips,
McKenzie STOL cuffs & fences, and NWA VGs, .... plus the
polished, ported, balanced XP-360 (195 hp !!) is THE nicest
Rebel I've flown. I saw 2,100 fpm climb in the August heat,
and it would climb almost as steep as you wanted to pull !!
At 46 mph, it was still going up over 1500 fpm, and if you pulled
harder, it just nodded & kept going. The angle is so
extreme, you really want to hang onto something ! :-)
(See pics & video in the archives ...)
His empty C of G is somewhere around the 13" mark.
The landings are so slow & gentle that you almost need
the old Ace McCool "Have landed" sign ! :-)

In several spin tests, it would only stay in about
1 turn or less, then it turned into a gentle, nodding
turn at 40 - 42 mph, with the stick all the way back,
full rudder, and full opposite aileron, - same reaction
both left and right ! Such a pussycat !
Just relax on the stick, and you're flying again.
Of course, it flies hands off in level flight.

The original Prince prop was too fine, and it now
has one 3" coarser - hit it right this time ! It will
do about 143 mph straight & level, at 2,700 rpm - and
about 13 - 14 gph. This still gives a solid 1,800 fpm
climb .... Can't wait to try it on the Murphy 1800
amphibs that are painted up, in the shop, waiting for
spring.

The instructor I flew with in 1957 is still active, and
has flown several Rebels. So far, he was not really excited
about them (some were a bit rough ...) - but he LIKES this
one !! ;-) :-)

You're going to love your Rebel !
Keep rivetting, it IS worth it !! :-)

......bobp

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:36 pm**

You betcha !! :-) That, and that honking big battery, right
at the back end of the floor !!! :-)

No question - the further aft C of G greatly improves the
low speed handling - with all the goodies installed. My C of G
is 8.1" and I can't get nearly as slow as Pierre, but the
landings, and climb angles, are still amazing !

.....bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 22 December 2005 07:46 am, Ken wrote:

25 lbs or so of hydraulic pump way back in the tail sure moves the C of

G !

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

snip
Pierre's Ultimate Rebel, with the Fife Hoerner tips,
McKenzie STOL cuffs & fences, and NWA VGs, .... plus the
polished, ported, balanced XP-360 (195 hp !!) is THE nicest
Rebel I've flown. I saw 2,100 fpm climb in the August heat,
and it would climb almost as steep as you wanted to pull !!
At 46 mph, it was still going up over 1500 fpm, and if you pulled
harder, it just nodded & kept going. The angle is so
extreme, you really want to hang onto something ! :-)
(See pics & video in the archives ...)
His empty C of G is somewhere around the 13" mark.
The landings are so slow & gentle that you almost need
the old Ace McCool "Have landed" sign ! :-)

In several spin tests, it would only stay in about
1 turn or less, then it turned into a gentle, nodding
turn at 40 - 42 mph, with the stick all the way back,
full rudder, and full opposite aileron, - same reaction
both left and right ! Such a pussycat !
Just relax on the stick, and you're flying again.
Of course, it flies hands off in level flight.

The original Prince prop was too fine, and it now
has one 3" coarser - hit it right this time ! It will
do about 143 mph straight & level, at 2,700 rpm - and
about 13 - 14 gph. This still gives a solid 1,800 fpm
climb .... Can't wait to try it on the Murphy 1800
amphibs that are painted up, in the shop, waiting for
spring.

The instructor I flew with in 1957 is still active, and
has flown several Rebels. So far, he was not really excited
about them (some were a bit rough ...) - but he LIKES this
one !! ;-) :-)

You're going to love your Rebel !
Keep rivetting, it IS worth it !! :-)

......bobp

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:36 pm**

Bob,
It is impressive to hear about this plane again (spare the 13+ gph). It
strikes me this time that in spite of it being mid to high in empty weight,
that it still can get so slow and be so polite about it. (It's more than I
had come to hope for.) IIRC from your previous posts, this plane's CG is
about 13" and empty wt in the 1060lbs neighborhood. So, it ain't light, and
I believe that CG is slightly forward. I guess this speaks well for the
aerodynamic tricks, a la McKenzie, Fife, and VGs.
-Ben/ R496

Pierre's Ultimate Rebel, with the Fife Hoerner tips,
McKenzie STOL cuffs & fences, and NWA VGs, .... plus the
polished, ported, balanced XP-360 (195 hp !!) is THE nicest
Rebel I've flown. I saw 2,100 fpm climb in the August heat,
and it would climb almost as steep as you wanted to pull !!
At 46 mph, it was still going up over 1500 fpm, and if you pulled
harder, it just nodded & kept going. The angle is so
extreme, you really want to hang onto something ! :-)
(See pics & video in the archives ...)
His empty C of G is somewhere around the 13" mark.
The landings are so slow & gentle that you almost need
the old Ace McCool "Have landed" sign ! :-)

In several spin tests, it would only stay in about
1 turn or less, then it turned into a gentle, nodding
turn at 40 - 42 mph, with the stick all the way back,
full rudder, and full opposite aileron, - same reaction
both left and right ! Such a pussycat !
Just relax on the stick, and you're flying again.
Of course, it flies hands off in level flight.

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:36 pm**

Hi Ben !

Well, sadly, it's not "mid to high" empty weight - this is flat out
THE heaviest Rebel I've ever flown ! Lot of reasons - custom glass panel,
(fiberglass - and electronic !), lots of steel tubing behind the panel,
heavy hydraulic pump for amphibs & wheel-skis, huge battery, heavy
upholstery, a plywood 'curtain', ...and all the STOL goodies, plus
a beautiful paint job ! Fortunately, those extra ponies under the
hood more than compensate, and it is an amazing ride !! :-)

The empty C of G is actually further aft than most Rebels - mine is
at 8.1", which is about as far forward as you'd ever want ! Most Rebels
are in the 10 - 12.5" range, especially with the standard firewall
position, like mine. Having the C of G further back makes it easier
to fly slowly, AND gives a faster cruise - BUT you have to stay within
the range limits ! If it's too far back, when loaded, you might not
be able to carry the full load of baggage (not a problem for mine ! ;-) )
AND an aft C of G can cause poor, or NO, spin recovery ! :-(

With my forward C of G, flying lightly loaded, the extra weight
on the nose forces the nose to drop as the speed falls off - at
a higher speed than it would fully loaded. This is a safety feature
of any good design - it prevents unrecoverable deep stalls !

There's no doubt that the aerodynamic extras really "gild the
lilly", but the basic Rebel's big, fat wing is still one of the
nicest airfoils out there at low speeds - it is really forgiving !
This is the only Rebel I've flown with VGs where the VGs actually
improved performance and handling - guess these guys have the
placement right. (Although the VGs on the stab should be on the
bottom !)

You are going to LOVE your Rebel - GET IT FLYING !! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 23 December 2005 01:12 am, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Bob,
It is impressive to hear about this plane again (spare the 13+ gph). It
strikes me this time that in spite of it being mid to high in empty

weight,

that it still can get so slow and be so polite about it. (It's more than

I

had come to hope for.) IIRC from your previous posts, this plane's CG is
about 13" and empty wt in the 1060lbs neighborhood. So, it ain't light,

and

I believe that CG is slightly forward. I guess this speaks well for the
aerodynamic tricks, a la McKenzie, Fife, and VGs.
-Ben/ R496

Pierre's Ultimate Rebel, with the Fife Hoerner tips,
McKenzie STOL cuffs & fences, and NWA VGs, .... plus the
polished, ported, balanced XP-360 (195 hp !!) is THE nicest
Rebel I've flown. I saw 2,100 fpm climb in the August heat,
and it would climb almost as steep as you wanted to pull !!
At 46 mph, it was still going up over 1500 fpm, and if you pulled
harder, it just nodded & kept going. The angle is so
extreme, you really want to hang onto something ! :-)
(See pics & video in the archives ...)
His empty C of G is somewhere around the 13" mark.
The landings are so slow & gentle that you almost need
the old Ace McCool "Have landed" sign ! :-)

In several spin tests, it would only stay in about
1 turn or less, then it turned into a gentle, nodding
turn at 40 - 42 mph, with the stick all the way back,
full rudder, and full opposite aileron, - same reaction
both left and right ! Such a pussycat !
Just relax on the stick, and you're flying again.
Of course, it flies hands off in level flight.

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:36 pm**

Must admit I've not previously paid close attention to the CG numbers as I'm
not to the fuselage yet. I had stuck 10" in the back of my head as roughly a
typical forward limit. I'd be curious if anyone has ever done flight tests
to measure stall speed against CG (moving CG intentionally with weight
increments in the tail). Could it be that this is as much a factor in the
wide variation of reported stall speeds (Rebel) as the usual explanation of
pitot error due to high AOA?
-Ben

On 12/23/2005 8:09 AM, beep@sympatico.ca wrote to rebel-builders:

Hi Ben !

Well, sadly, it's not "mid to high" empty weight - this is flat out
THE heaviest Rebel I've ever flown ! Lot of reasons - custom glass panel,
(fiberglass - and electronic !), lots of steel tubing behind the panel,
heavy hydraulic pump for amphibs & wheel-skis, huge battery, heavy
upholstery, a plywood 'curtain', ...and all the STOL goodies, plus
a beautiful paint job ! Fortunately, those extra ponies under the
hood more than compensate, and it is an amazing ride !! :-)

The empty C of G is actually further aft than most Rebels - mine is
at 8.1", which is about as far forward as you'd ever want ! Most Rebels
are in the 10 - 12.5" range, especially with the standard firewall
position, like mine. Having the C of G further back makes it easier
to fly slowly, AND gives a faster cruise - BUT you have to stay within
the range limits ! If it's too far back, when loaded, you might not
be able to carry the full load of baggage (not a problem for mine ! ;-) )
AND an aft C of G can cause poor, or NO, spin recovery ! :-(

With my forward C of G, flying lightly loaded, the extra weight
on the nose forces the nose to drop as the speed falls off - at
a higher speed than it would fully loaded. This is a safety feature
of any good design - it prevents unrecoverable deep stalls !

There's no doubt that the aerodynamic extras really "gild the
lilly", but the basic Rebel's big, fat wing is still one of the
nicest airfoils out there at low speeds - it is really forgiving !
This is the only Rebel I've flown with VGs where the VGs actually
improved performance and handling - guess these guys have the
placement right. (Although the VGs on the stab should be on the
bottom !)

You are going to LOVE your Rebel - GET IT FLYING !! :-)

......bobp

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:36 pm**

Hey Bob ..... HOW do we all find out "guess these guys have the
placement right." ..... WHERE the right placement IS ?!?!?!?

Rick "down under"
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 4:09 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel SPIN tests with leading edge cuffs on

Hi Ben !

Well, sadly, it's not "mid to high" empty weight - this is flat out
THE heaviest Rebel I've ever flown ! Lot of reasons - custom glass panel,
(fiberglass - and electronic !), lots of steel tubing behind the panel,
heavy hydraulic pump for amphibs & wheel-skis, huge battery, heavy
upholstery, a plywood 'curtain', ...and all the STOL goodies, plus
a beautiful paint job ! Fortunately, those extra ponies under the
hood more than compensate, and it is an amazing ride !! :-)

The empty C of G is actually further aft than most Rebels - mine is
at 8.1", which is about as far forward as you'd ever want ! Most Rebels
are in the 10 - 12.5" range, especially with the standard firewall
position, like mine. Having the C of G further back makes it easier
to fly slowly, AND gives a faster cruise - BUT you have to stay within
the range limits ! If it's too far back, when loaded, you might not
be able to carry the full load of baggage (not a problem for mine ! ;-) )
AND an aft C of G can cause poor, or NO, spin recovery ! :-(

With my forward C of G, flying lightly loaded, the extra weight
on the nose forces the nose to drop as the speed falls off - at
a higher speed than it would fully loaded. This is a safety feature
of any good design - it prevents unrecoverable deep stalls !

There's no doubt that the aerodynamic extras really "gild the
lilly", but the basic Rebel's big, fat wing is still one of the
nicest airfoils out there at low speeds - it is really forgiving !
This is the only Rebel I've flown with VGs where the VGs actually
improved performance and handling - guess these guys have the
placement right. (Although the VGs on the stab should be on the
bottom !)

You are going to LOVE your Rebel - GET IT FLYING !! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 23 December 2005 01:12 am, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Bob,
It is impressive to hear about this plane again (spare the 13+ gph). It
strikes me this time that in spite of it being mid to high in empty

weight,

that it still can get so slow and be so polite about it. (It's more than

I

had come to hope for.) IIRC from your previous posts, this plane's CG is
about 13" and empty wt in the 1060lbs neighborhood. So, it ain't light,

and

I believe that CG is slightly forward. I guess this speaks well for the
aerodynamic tricks, a la McKenzie, Fife, and VGs.
-Ben/ R496

Pierre's Ultimate Rebel, with the Fife Hoerner tips,
McKenzie STOL cuffs & fences, and NWA VGs, .... plus the
polished, ported, balanced XP-360 (195 hp !!) is THE nicest
Rebel I've flown. I saw 2,100 fpm climb in the August heat,
and it would climb almost as steep as you wanted to pull !!
At 46 mph, it was still going up over 1500 fpm, and if you pulled
harder, it just nodded & kept going. The angle is so
extreme, you really want to hang onto something ! :-)
(See pics & video in the archives ...)
His empty C of G is somewhere around the 13" mark.
The landings are so slow & gentle that you almost need
the old Ace McCool "Have landed" sign ! :-)

In several spin tests, it would only stay in about
1 turn or less, then it turned into a gentle, nodding
turn at 40 - 42 mph, with the stick all the way back,
full rudder, and full opposite aileron, - same reaction
both left and right ! Such a pussycat !
Just relax on the stick, and you're flying again.
Of course, it flies hands off in level flight.

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:36 pm**

Hi Rick !

Wellllllll, that's the problem with VGs - some folks think they're
like magic pixie dust - just sprinkle them on, and presto ! Instant
performance improvement !!! :-)

Unfortunately, positioning is VERY important - that's one reason
these little bits of plastic or metal are so expensive - it takes
lots of testing to get it right !

I've flown Rebels with VGs that were horrible for handling,
and then there's Pierre's, which is great ! He used NWA VGs,
which, I assume, come with a kit including a template that fits on
the wing, that puts the VGs in exactly the right spot before
you stick them with glue. Or maybe they just guessed correctly,
or the wing with the McKenzie cuffs made them work better, or ....

In any case, so far, VGs will be the LAST thing I add to MY
Rebel - ('way AFTER even a transponder ! ;-) ) - they make it very
difficult to remove snow, or just wash the wings, and they
can do a lot of harm if they are in the wrong position !
... And I already have the Hoerner tips and McKenzie STOL kit -
'way more performance than a stock Rebel, and even stock,
it was GREAT !! :-)

Before I get buried by the Moose guys - RELAX ! This is just
MHO, and ONLY relative to the REBEL !!!! I've never tried a
Moose with VGs, but apparently the suppliers have templates that
DO work for the Moose.

I .......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 23 December 2005 04:50 pm, Rick Harper wrote:

Hey Bob ..... HOW do we all find out "guess these guys have the
placement right." ..... WHERE the right placement IS ?!?!?!?

Rick "down under"
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 4:09 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel SPIN tests with leading edge cuffs on

Hi Ben !

Well, sadly, it's not "mid to high" empty weight - this is flat out
THE heaviest Rebel I've ever flown ! Lot of reasons - custom glass

panel,

(fiberglass - and electronic !), lots of steel tubing behind the panel,
heavy hydraulic pump for amphibs & wheel-skis, huge battery, heavy
upholstery, a plywood 'curtain', ...and all the STOL goodies, plus
a beautiful paint job ! Fortunately, those extra ponies under the
hood more than compensate, and it is an amazing ride !! :-)

The empty C of G is actually further aft than most Rebels - mine is
at 8.1", which is about as far forward as you'd ever want ! Most Rebels
are in the 10 - 12.5" range, especially with the standard firewall
position, like mine. Having the C of G further back makes it easier
to fly slowly, AND gives a faster cruise - BUT you have to stay within
the range limits ! If it's too far back, when loaded, you might not
be able to carry the full load of baggage (not a problem for

mine ! ;-) )

AND an aft C of G can cause poor, or NO, spin recovery ! :-(

With my forward C of G, flying lightly loaded, the extra weight
on the nose forces the nose to drop as the speed falls off - at
a higher speed than it would fully loaded. This is a safety feature
of any good design - it prevents unrecoverable deep stalls !

There's no doubt that the aerodynamic extras really "gild the
lilly", but the basic Rebel's big, fat wing is still one of the
nicest airfoils out there at low speeds - it is really forgiving !
This is the only Rebel I've flown with VGs where the VGs actually
improved performance and handling - guess these guys have the
placement right. (Although the VGs on the stab should be on the
bottom !)

You are going to LOVE your Rebel - GET IT FLYING !! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 23 December 2005 01:12 am, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:
Bob,
It is impressive to hear about this plane again (spare the 13+ gph).

It

strikes me this time that in spite of it being mid to high in empty
weight,
that it still can get so slow and be so polite about it. (It's more

than

I
had come to hope for.) IIRC from your previous posts, this plane's CG

is

about 13" and empty wt in the 1060lbs neighborhood. So, it ain't

light,

and
I believe that CG is slightly forward. I guess this speaks well for

the

aerodynamic tricks, a la McKenzie, Fife, and VGs.
-Ben/ R496

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