The Murphy Builders Site

Have been talking to someone about the virtues of adding VG's to
a wing on a floatplane. As I understand it, VG's work by allowing
a higher angle of attack on the wing before the boundary layer
separates thereby lowering stall speed. But with a float plane,
the angle of attack of your wing on take-off is limited by your
float angle (throat angle) and the sweet spot (on the rear step,
but tails still clear of the water). So if you can't take
advantage of a higher angle of attack on take-off, how would VG's
help with float take-offs?

That made wonder about the Rebel STOL kit. How does it lower
stall speed? Does it also require a higher angle of attack?

Now if VGs or the STOL cuff created more lift (like more wing
area does) at the same angle of attack, then I can see how they
would help with float take-offs, but not sure if they do.

I can see why VG's help with tail dragger land planes, but not
sure about floatplanes.

Walter




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Have been talking to someone about the virtues of adding VG's to
a wing on a floatplane. As I understand it, VG's work by allowing
a higher angle of attack on the wing before the boundary layer
separates thereby lowering stall speed. But with a float plane,
the angle of attack of your wing on take-off is limited by your
float angle (throat angle) and the sweet spot (on the rear step,
but tails still clear of the water). So if you can't take
advantage of a higher angle of attack on take-off, how would VG's
help with float take-offs?

That made wonder about the Rebel STOL kit. How does it lower
stall speed? Does it also require a higher angle of attack?

Now if VGs or the STOL cuff created more lift (like more wing
area does) at the same angle of attack, then I can see how they
would help with float take-offs, but not sure if they do.

I can see why VG's help with tail dragger land planes, but not
sure about floatplanes.

Walter

From: apoulsen <apoulsen@comcast.net>
Sent: Dec 16, 2005 7:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's

Hi Walter,

I used to fly floats commercially, mostly in Washington and B.C. but I spent
one season in Alaska flying a 206 with a Robertson STOL. I'm not sure
Robertson makes them anymore but the kit drooped the ailerons and like you
surmised, you can't take advantage of the increase AOA on floats. The kit
also ended up reducing the range of travel of the ailerons thus reducing
roll control at slow speeeds, right where you need it. The 206 isn't that
responsive to begin with and I hated the mod.

Just one guy's opinion.

Allen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:46 PM
Subject: STOL Cuff or VG's

Have been talking to someone about the virtues of adding VG's to
a wing on a floatplane. As I understand it, VG's work by allowing
a higher angle of attack on the wing before the boundary layer
separates thereby lowering stall speed. But with a float plane,
the angle of attack of your wing on take-off is limited by your
float angle (throat angle) and the sweet spot (on the rear step,
but tails still clear of the water). So if you can't take
advantage of a higher angle of attack on take-off, how would VG's
help with float take-offs?

That made wonder about the Rebel STOL kit. How does it lower
stall speed? Does it also require a higher angle of attack?

Now if VGs or the STOL cuff created more lift (like more wing
area does) at the same angle of attack, then I can see how they
would help with float take-offs, but not sure if they do.

I can see why VG's help with tail dragger land planes, but not
sure about floatplanes.

Walter




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The mods may not help with take off run from water but once you're air

Bruce
-----Original Message-----

From: apoulsen <apoulsen@comcast.net>
Sent: Dec 16, 2005 7:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's

Hi Walter,

I used to fly floats commercially, mostly in Washington and B.C. but I

one season in Alaska flying a 206 with a Robertson STOL. I'm not sure
Robertson makes them anymore but the kit drooped the ailerons and like

surmised, you can't take advantage of the increase AOA on floats. The kit
also ended up reducing the range of travel of the ailerons thus reducing
roll control at slow speeeds, right where you need it. The 206 isn't that
responsive to begin with and I hated the mod.

Just one guy's opinion.

Allen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:46 PM
Subject: STOL Cuff or VG's

Have been talking to someone about the virtues of adding VG's to
a wing on a floatplane. As I understand it, VG's work by allowing
a higher angle of attack on the wing before the boundary layer
separates thereby lowering stall speed. But with a float plane,
the angle of attack of your wing on take-off is limited by your
float angle (throat angle) and the sweet spot (on the rear step,
but tails still clear of the water). So if you can't take
advantage of a higher angle of attack on take-off, how would VG's
help with float take-offs?

That made wonder about the Rebel STOL kit. How does it lower
stall speed? Does it also require a higher angle of attack?

Now if VGs or the STOL cuff created more lift (like more wing
area does) at the same angle of attack, then I can see how they
would help with float take-offs, but not sure if they do.

I can see why VG's help with tail dragger land planes, but not
sure about floatplanes.

Walter




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-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:03 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's


I totally agree with the tree clearing after getting
off the water by
increasing the AOA after you get off the water....but
you can't use it
coming in on floats to get slower..= higher nose... or
you are going to hit
hard on the keels going slow...throw forward on the
bows and possible
dig/ditch. Unless of course you really open up the
throat angle similar to a
CH701 on floats.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's

The mods may not help with take off run from water

but once you're air
born, the increase in AOA may help you clear trees at
the end of the lake.
It must help in landing too, by giving you a slower
approach. This may not
help a whole lot since you can't always get out of the
same lake you got
into. But if the water was rough it would help save
you from beating your
plane up as much.

Bruce
-----Original Message-----

From: apoulsen <apoulsen@comcast.net>
Sent: Dec 16, 2005 7:16 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's

Hi Walter,

I used to fly floats commercially, mostly in

Washington and B.C. but I
spent

one season in Alaska flying a 206 with a Robertson

STOL. I'm not sure

Robertson makes them anymore but the kit drooped

the ailerons and like
you

surmised, you can't take advantage of the increase

AOA on floats. The kit

also ended up reducing the range of travel of the

ailerons thus reducing

roll control at slow speeeds, right where you need

it. The 206 isn't that

responsive to begin with and I hated the mod.

Just one guy's opinion.

Allen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: "Rebel-Builders" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:46 PM
Subject: STOL Cuff or VG's

adding VG's to

work by allowing

boundary layer

a float plane,

limited by your

the rear step,

take-off, how would VG's

does it lower

of attack?

(like more wing

can see how they

planes, but not

-------------------------------------------------------
----------

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----------

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List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com

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PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com

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From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:23:30 -0800

Yes, when landing in rough water, I find it most important to
touch down near parallel to the waves, not nose high. It's coming
down from the step in big waves, where I can't seem to avoid a
beating, and don't think VG's or anything else will help me with
that.

It's just take-off that I care about. As you know, Bruce, in some
of these lakes, no problem landing, but the take-off run can be
much longer than we want, especially with a heavy load.

One of the local Elite builders got some VG's, but he is still a
long ways from flying, so will just have to wait and see how he
does.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:03 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's


I totally agree with the tree clearing after getting
off the water by
increasing the AOA after you get off the water....but
you can't use it
coming in on floats to get slower..= higher nose... or
you are going to hit
hard on the keels going slow...throw forward on the
bows and possible
dig/ditch. Unless of course you really open up the
throat angle similar to a
CH701 on floats.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's

The mods may not help with take off run from water

but once you're air
born, the increase in AOA may help you clear trees at
the end of the lake.
It must help in landing too, by giving you a slower
approach. This may not
help a whole lot since you can't always get out of the
same lake you got
into. But if the water was rough it would help save
you from beating your
plane up as much.

Bruce
-----Original Message-----

Washington and B.C. but I
spent

STOL. I'm not sure

the ailerons and like
you

AOA on floats. The kit

ailerons thus reducing

it. The 206 isn't that

adding VG's to

work by allowing

boundary layer

a float plane,

limited by your

the rear step,

take-off, how would VG's

does it lower

of attack?

(like more wing

can see how they

planes, but not

-------------------------------------------------------
----------

-------------------------------------------------------
----------

------------------------------------------------------

-----------

------------------------------------------------------

-----------

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com

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----------

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List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com

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Yes, when landing in rough water, I find it most important to
touch down near parallel to the waves, not nose high. It's coming
down from the step in big waves, where I can't seem to avoid a
beating, and don't think VG's or anything else will help me with
that.

It's just take-off that I care about. As you know, Bruce, in some
of these lakes, no problem landing, but the take-off run can be
much longer than we want, especially with a heavy load.

One of the local Elite builders got some VG's, but he is still a
long ways from flying, so will just have to wait and see how he
does.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 3:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's


I think MAM has kept the V angle of the float bottoms
fairly shallow for
good takeoff performance whereas floats with a deep
keel tend to ride
rough water and rough landings better.

Any chance the Elite owner will fly it without the
VG's first for
comparison?

Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:

Yes, when landing in rough water, I find it most important to
touch down near parallel to the waves, not nose high.

It's coming

down from the step in big waves, where I can't seem to avoid a
beating, and don't think VG's or anything else will

help me with

that.

It's just take-off that I care about. As you know,

Bruce, in some

of these lakes, no problem landing, but the take-off

run can be

much longer than we want, especially with a heavy load.

One of the local Elite builders got some VG's, but he

is still a

long ways from flying, so will just have to wait and

see how he

does.

Walter

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In theory I don't think VGs are supposed to increase lift for a given AOA,
but I could be wrong. If you are trying to get off the water faster, then a
combination of increasing throat angle and adding VGs or cuffs seems like
the answer. The picture of Jack Weibs rebel riding on the tails looks like

pretty low throat angle to me.
Just the observations of an inexperienced float pilot.
Jesse

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:23:30 -0800

Yes, when landing in rough water, I find it most important to
touch down near parallel to the waves, not nose high. It's coming
down from the step in big waves, where I can't seem to avoid a
beating, and don't think VG's or anything else will help me with
that.

It's just take-off that I care about. As you know, Bruce, in some
of these lakes, no problem landing, but the take-off run can be
much longer than we want, especially with a heavy load.

One of the local Elite builders got some VG's, but he is still a
long ways from flying, so will just have to wait and see how he
does.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:03 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's


I totally agree with the tree clearing after getting
off the water by
increasing the AOA after you get off the water....but
you can't use it
coming in on floats to get slower..= higher nose... or
you are going to hit
hard on the keels going slow...throw forward on the
bows and possible
dig/ditch. Unless of course you really open up the
throat angle similar to a
CH701 on floats.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's

but once you're air
born, the increase in AOA may help you clear trees at
the end of the lake.
It must help in landing too, by giving you a slower
approach. This may not
help a whole lot since you can't always get out of the
same lake you got
into. But if the water was rough it would help save
you from beating your
plane up as much. Washington and B.C. but I
spent STOL. I'm not sure the ailerons and like
you AOA on floats. The kit ailerons thus reducing it. The 206 isn't that adding VG's to work by allowing boundary layer a float plane, limited by your the rear step, take-off, how would VG's does it lower of attack? (like more wing can see how they planes, but not -------------------------------------------------------
---------- -------------------------------------------------------
---------- ----------- ----------- -------------------------------------------------------
---------- -------------------------------------------------------
----------






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From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Sent: Dec 17, 2005 4:05 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's

I'm trying to talk him in to flying without first, but he wants
to put them on right away. Will have to wait and see. Wish he
would move his butt and get it finished, though. He has an 0360
and the 1800 amphibs, so should be interesting to see how it
performs.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 3:35 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's


I think MAM has kept the V angle of the float bottoms
fairly shallow for
good takeoff performance whereas floats with a deep
keel tend to ride
rough water and rough landings better.

Any chance the Elite owner will fly it without the
VG's first for
comparison?

Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:

Yes, when landing in rough water, I find it most important to
touch down near parallel to the waves, not nose high.

It's coming

down from the step in big waves, where I can't seem to avoid a
beating, and don't think VG's or anything else will

help me with

that.

It's just take-off that I care about. As you know,

Bruce, in some

of these lakes, no problem landing, but the take-off

run can be

much longer than we want, especially with a heavy load.

One of the local Elite builders got some VG's, but he

is still a

long ways from flying, so will just have to wait and

see how he

does.

Walter

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From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:23:30 -0800

Yes, when landing in rough water, I find it most important to
touch down near parallel to the waves, not nose high. It's coming
down from the step in big waves, where I can't seem to avoid a
beating, and don't think VG's or anything else will help me with
that.

It's just take-off that I care about. As you know, Bruce, in some
of these lakes, no problem landing, but the take-off run can be
much longer than we want, especially with a heavy load.

One of the local Elite builders got some VG's, but he is still a
long ways from flying, so will just have to wait and see how he
does.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:03 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's


I totally agree with the tree clearing after getting
off the water by
increasing the AOA after you get off the water....but
you can't use it
coming in on floats to get slower..= higher nose... or
you are going to hit
hard on the keels going slow...throw forward on the
bows and possible
dig/ditch. Unless of course you really open up the
throat angle similar to a
CH701 on floats.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's

The mods may not help with take off run from water

but once you're air
born, the increase in AOA may help you clear trees at
the end of the lake.
It must help in landing too, by giving you a slower
approach. This may not
help a whole lot since you can't always get out of the
same lake you got
into. But if the water was rough it would help save
you from beating your
plane up as much.

Bruce
-----Original Message-----

Washington and B.C. but I
spent

STOL. I'm not sure

the ailerons and like
you

AOA on floats. The kit

ailerons thus reducing

it. The 206 isn't that

adding VG's to

work by allowing

boundary layer

a float plane,

limited by your

the rear step,

take-off, how would VG's

does it lower

of attack?

(like more wing

can see how they

planes, but not

-------------------------------------------------------
----------

-------------------------------------------------------
----------

------------------------------------------------------

-----------

------------------------------------------------------

-----------

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com

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Do you guys remember this discussion about a month ago? I am still trying
to
find any experience with VGs on floats, and whether they help on take-off.
I
have been told (not on this list) that VGs help with climb performance
because they create more lift at a given angle of attack as well. So if
that
is true, then they should also help shorten float take-offs.

But I can't find anyone that has used them on a floatplane.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's

In theory I don't think VGs are supposed to increase lift for a given AOA,
but I could be wrong. If you are trying to get off the water faster, then
a
combination of increasing throat angle and adding VGs or cuffs seems like
the answer. The picture of Jack Weibs rebel riding on the tails looks like
a

pretty low throat angle to me.
Just the observations of an inexperienced float pilot.
Jesse

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:23:30 -0800

Yes, when landing in rough water, I find it most important to
touch down near parallel to the waves, not nose high. It's coming
down from the step in big waves, where I can't seem to avoid a
beating, and don't think VG's or anything else will help me with
that.

It's just take-off that I care about. As you know, Bruce, in some
of these lakes, no problem landing, but the take-off run can be
much longer than we want, especially with a heavy load.

One of the local Elite builders got some VG's, but he is still a
long ways from flying, so will just have to wait and see how he
does.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:03 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's


I totally agree with the tree clearing after getting
off the water by
increasing the AOA after you get off the water....but
you can't use it
coming in on floats to get slower..= higher nose... or
you are going to hit
hard on the keels going slow...throw forward on the
bows and possible
dig/ditch. Unless of course you really open up the
throat angle similar to a
CH701 on floats.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's

but once you're air
born, the increase in AOA may help you clear trees at
the end of the lake.
It must help in landing too, by giving you a slower
approach. This may not
help a whole lot since you can't always get out of the
same lake you got
into. But if the water was rough it would help save
you from beating your
plane up as much. Washington and B.C. but I
spent STOL. I'm not sure the ailerons and like
you AOA on floats. The kit ailerons thus reducing it. The 206 isn't that adding VG's to work by allowing boundary layer a float plane, limited by your the rear step, take-off, how would VG's does it lower of attack? (like more wing can see how they planes, but not -------------------------------------------------------
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Do you guys remember this discussion about a month ago? I am still trying
to
find any experience with VGs on floats, and whether they help on take-off.

I
have been told (not on this list) that VGs help with climb performance
because they create more lift at a given angle of attack as well. So if
that
is true, then they should also help shorten float take-offs.

But I can't find anyone that has used them on a floatplane.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's

In theory I don't think VGs are supposed to increase lift for a given AOA,
but I could be wrong. If you are trying to get off the water faster, then
a
combination of increasing throat angle and adding VGs or cuffs seems like
the answer. The picture of Jack Weibs rebel riding on the tails looks like

a

pretty low throat angle to me.
Just the observations of an inexperienced float pilot.
Jesse

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:23:30 -0800

Yes, when landing in rough water, I find it most important to
touch down near parallel to the waves, not nose high. It's coming
down from the step in big waves, where I can't seem to avoid a
beating, and don't think VG's or anything else will help me with
that.

It's just take-off that I care about. As you know, Bruce, in some
of these lakes, no problem landing, but the take-off run can be
much longer than we want, especially with a heavy load.

One of the local Elite builders got some VG's, but he is still a
long ways from flying, so will just have to wait and see how he
does.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 11:03 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's


I totally agree with the tree clearing after getting
off the water by
increasing the AOA after you get off the water....but
you can't use it
coming in on floats to get slower..= higher nose... or
you are going to hit
hard on the keels going slow...throw forward on the
bows and possible
dig/ditch. Unless of course you really open up the
throat angle similar to a
CH701 on floats.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Georgen" <bgeorgen@peoplepc.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's

but once you're air
born, the increase in AOA may help you clear trees at
the end of the lake.
It must help in landing too, by giving you a slower
approach. This may not
help a whole lot since you can't always get out of the
same lake you got
into. But if the water was rough it would help save
you from beating your
plane up as much. Washington and B.C. but I
spent STOL. I'm not sure the ailerons and like
you AOA on floats. The kit ailerons thus reducing it. The 206 isn't that adding VG's to work by allowing boundary layer a float plane, limited by your the rear step, take-off, how would VG's does it lower of attack? (like more wing can see how they planes, but not -------------------------------------------------------
---------- -------------------------------------------------------
---------- ----------- ----------- -------------------------------------------------------
---------- -------------------------------------------------------
----------






-------------------------------------------------------
----------
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Hmmm, thanks Al, didn't realize you had them. What about on the bottom of
the horizontal stab, do you have them there?

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Al
Paxhia
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:07 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: STOL Cuff or VG's

Walter,
I have VG's on the Moose and they help most on landing but on water
takeoff
it's still AOA issue. I can't get enough AOA until the airplane is off the
water. Taking off on land as soon as there is enough elevator authority to
pitch the nose up the airplane will climb straight up (seems that way but
not quite). We have a bump in the grass about 500 feet from the threshold,
this bump will also pitch the airplane up. The pitch up is severe enough
that the indicated airspeed is still zero. As soon as the nose is lowered
the airspeed goes to 50mph and she will climb out.
Where the VG's shine is aileron control and slow speed control. The
airplane

will fly very slow at a high AOA and the aileron authority is there with
full flaps and full aileron droop. Also stalls are a non event on floats
with VG's without the VG's just prior to the stall my airplane would start
a

roll oscillation that I didn't like.
Bottom line, until the floats are out of the water they don't help me. I
also believe they are a must have for the Moose.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:23 PM
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's

Do you guys remember this discussion about a month ago? I am still trying
to
find any experience with VGs on floats, and whether they help on
take-off.

I
have been told (not on this list) that VGs help with climb performance
because they create more lift at a given angle of attack as well. So if
that
is true, then they should also help shorten float take-offs.

But I can't find anyone that has used them on a floatplane.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Jesse
Jenks
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2005 2:28 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's

In theory I don't think VGs are supposed to increase lift for a given
AOA,
but I could be wrong. If you are trying to get off the water faster, then
a
combination of increasing throat angle and adding VGs or cuffs seems like
the answer. The picture of Jack Weibs rebel riding on the tails looks
like

a

pretty low throat angle to me.
Just the observations of an inexperienced float pilot.
Jesse

From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: STOL Cuff or VG's
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 11:23:30 -0800

Yes, when landing in rough water, I find it most important to
touch down near parallel to the waves, not nose high. It's coming
down from the step in big waves, where I can't seem to avoid a
beating, and don't think VG's or anything else will help me with
that.

It's just take-off that I care about. As you know, Bruce, in some
of these lakes, no problem landing, but the take-off run can be
much longer than we want, especially with a heavy load.

One of the local Elite builders got some VG's, but he is still a
long ways from flying, so will just have to wait and see how he
does.

Walter


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