Page 1 of 1

Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:30 pm
by Jesse Jenks
Ken,
I agree that it's better to install nutplates after the holes are drilled
through both parts to be joined, but I have had good luck installing the
nutplates first and then drilling the screw hole in the second part later
on. There are a couple reasons for doing it that way. First, I like to use
3/32" solid rivets with a hand squeezer to secure the nutplates. With those
restrictions there are places where you have to install the nutplates to the
rib flange (or whatever) before the skin is riveted down, because you can't
get the squeezer there with the skin on, for example the left wing's tip rib
and the right wing's root rib. If I borrowed a rivet gun and bucking bar I
could do the tip rib, or use the cherry 3/32 blind rivets, but I don't like
them too much, and they're pricey. The second reason is to be able to
replace existing rivet locations with the nutplates because it can be hard
to fit them between rivets.
The technique I have used to locate the screw holes for pre-installed
nutplates is to position the part, in this case it would be the wing tip,
and mark a line around the perimeter of it on to the wing skin. Next remove
the tip and draw lines perpendicular to one you just made that intersect it
and the center of the nutplate, and extend out onto the skin 6" or so. Then
measure as carefully as possible from the perimeter line to the center of
the nutplate and mark the measurement right on the skin. Now put the tip
back on and align it with the perimeter line on the skin again, then using a
ruler, extend the perpendicular lines back onto the tip. Finally, measure
and mark the distance you marked down earlier and you have the screw
locations. It's not perfect, but If you drill the screw holes a bit oversize
it works well. I did the tail tips this way, and then used countersunk
machine screws and those thin countersunk stainless washers. I think it
makes a good installation in fiberglass because it gives a much bigger
bearing surface and it looks slick too.
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:02:10 -0500

Jesse
Off topic, but if you install those nutplates now, do you have someway
of aligning and drilling the holes in the tips later? Usually you want
the tips on first, then drill, then nutplates.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:
Thanks Jeff,
It looks like quite a bit of work. It looks like you put some inspection
holes out there. Are those just for accessing the flaperon hinge bolts
and
attach bolts? Do you have wing strobes, and if so do you have the power
pack
out there? I was just getting ready to install nutplates for attaching
the
wing tips, whichever ones I use, but I see from your pictures that the
droop
tip becomes a semi-permanent part of the wing, so nutplates along the rib
flange won't do any good. Maybe I'll just go with a single fuselage
mounted
strobe and forget about it.
Jesse




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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:30 pm
by Ken
Jesse
I see where you are coming from now. FWIW the cheap 3/32 commercial
aluminum countersunk rivets seem to also work fine on nutplates that
have dimpled rivet holes. They are a 120 degree cs. but still seem fine.
Rather than those countersunk stainless washers I've just be putting a
nylon washer under a truss head screw but what you are doing probably
does look better.
The aeroflash power supply base is 5.5" x 3.6".
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:
Ken,
I agree that it's better to install nutplates after the holes are drilled
through both parts to be joined, but I have had good luck installing the
nutplates first and then drilling the screw hole in the second part later
on. There are a couple reasons for doing it that way. First, I like to
use
3/32" solid rivets with a hand squeezer to secure the nutplates. With
those
restrictions there are places where you have to install the nutplates
to the
rib flange (or whatever) before the skin is riveted down, because you
can't
get the squeezer there with the skin on, for example the left wing's
tip rib
and the right wing's root rib. If I borrowed a rivet gun and bucking
bar I
could do the tip rib, or use the cherry 3/32 blind rivets, but I don't
like
them too much, and they're pricey. The second reason is to be able to
replace existing rivet locations with the nutplates because it can be
hard
to fit them between rivets.
The technique I have used to locate the screw holes for pre-installed
nutplates is to position the part, in this case it would be the wing tip,
and mark a line around the perimeter of it on to the wing skin. Next
remove
the tip and draw lines perpendicular to one you just made that
intersect it
and the center of the nutplate, and extend out onto the skin 6" or so.
Then
measure as carefully as possible from the perimeter line to the center of
the nutplate and mark the measurement right on the skin. Now put the tip
back on and align it with the perimeter line on the skin again, then
using a
ruler, extend the perpendicular lines back onto the tip. Finally, measure
and mark the distance you marked down earlier and you have the screw
locations. It's not perfect, but If you drill the screw holes a bit
oversize
it works well. I did the tail tips this way, and then used countersunk
machine screws and those thin countersunk stainless washers. I think it
makes a good installation in fiberglass because it gives a much bigger
bearing surface and it looks slick too.
Jesse







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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:30 pm
by Bob Andrews
Think the amount of time and effort to install nut plates is unwarrented on
the wing tips. For inspection purposes, an inspection plate should answer
the mail. On the rare occasion that one might need to take the tip ... get
the punch and #30 drill bit out. Mine are getting riveted on.

Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:29 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates


Jesse
I see where you are coming from now. FWIW the cheap 3/32 commercial
aluminum countersunk rivets seem to also work fine on nutplates that
have dimpled rivet holes. They are a 120 degree cs. but still seem fine.
Rather than those countersunk stainless washers I've just be putting a
nylon washer under a truss head screw but what you are doing probably
does look better.
The aeroflash power supply base is 5.5" x 3.6".
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:
Ken,
I agree that it's better to install nutplates after the holes are drilled
through both parts to be joined, but I have had good luck installing the
nutplates first and then drilling the screw hole in the second part later
on. There are a couple reasons for doing it that way. First, I like to
use
3/32" solid rivets with a hand squeezer to secure the nutplates. With
those
restrictions there are places where you have to install the nutplates
to the
rib flange (or whatever) before the skin is riveted down, because you
can't
get the squeezer there with the skin on, for example the left wing's
tip rib
and the right wing's root rib. If I borrowed a rivet gun and bucking
bar I
could do the tip rib, or use the cherry 3/32 blind rivets, but I don't
like
them too much, and they're pricey. The second reason is to be able to
replace existing rivet locations with the nutplates because it can be
hard
to fit them between rivets.
The technique I have used to locate the screw holes for pre-installed
nutplates is to position the part, in this case it would be the wing tip,
and mark a line around the perimeter of it on to the wing skin. Next
remove
the tip and draw lines perpendicular to one you just made that
intersect it
and the center of the nutplate, and extend out onto the skin 6" or so.
Then
measure as carefully as possible from the perimeter line to the center of
the nutplate and mark the measurement right on the skin. Now put the tip
back on and align it with the perimeter line on the skin again, then
using a
ruler, extend the perpendicular lines back onto the tip. Finally, measure
and mark the distance you marked down earlier and you have the screw
locations. It's not perfect, but If you drill the screw holes a bit
oversize
it works well. I did the tail tips this way, and then used countersunk
machine screws and those thin countersunk stainless washers. I think it
makes a good installation in fiberglass because it gives a much bigger
bearing surface and it looks slick too.
Jesse







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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:30 pm
by Walter Klatt
FWIW, I have my tips riveted, and only had to remove one once
when I damaged a tip. And I would do the same if I was building
again.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Andrews
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 5:06 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates


Think the amount of time and effort to install nut
plates is unwarrented on
the wing tips. For inspection purposes, an inspection
plate should answer
the mail. On the rare occasion that one might need to
take the tip ... get
the punch and #30 drill bit out. Mine are getting riveted on.

Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 7:29 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates


Jesse
I see where you are coming from now. FWIW the cheap
3/32 commercial
aluminum countersunk rivets seem to also work fine on
nutplates that
have dimpled rivet holes. They are a 120 degree cs.
but still seem fine.
Rather than those countersunk stainless washers I've
just be putting a
nylon washer under a truss head screw but what you are
doing probably
does look better.
The aeroflash power supply base is 5.5" x 3.6".
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:
Ken,
I agree that it's better to install nutplates after
the holes are drilled
through both parts to be joined, but I have had good
luck installing the
nutplates first and then drilling the screw hole in
the second part later
on. There are a couple reasons for doing it that
way. First, I like to
use
3/32" solid rivets with a hand squeezer to secure
the nutplates. With
those
restrictions there are places where you have to
install the nutplates
to the
rib flange (or whatever) before the skin is riveted
down, because you
can't
get the squeezer there with the skin on, for example
the left wing's
tip rib
and the right wing's root rib. If I borrowed a rivet
gun and bucking
bar I
could do the tip rib, or use the cherry 3/32 blind
rivets, but I don't
like
them too much, and they're pricey. The second reason
is to be able to
replace existing rivet locations with the nutplates
because it can be
hard
to fit them between rivets.
The technique I have used to locate the screw holes
for pre-installed
nutplates is to position the part, in this case it
would be the wing tip,
and mark a line around the perimeter of it on to the
wing skin. Next
remove
the tip and draw lines perpendicular to one you just
made that
intersect it
and the center of the nutplate, and extend out onto
the skin 6" or so.
Then
measure as carefully as possible from the perimeter
line to the center of
the nutplate and mark the measurement right on the
skin. Now put the tip
back on and align it with the perimeter line on the
skin again, then
using a
ruler, extend the perpendicular lines back onto the
tip. Finally, measure
and mark the distance you marked down earlier and
you have the screw
locations. It's not perfect, but If you drill the
screw holes a bit
oversize
it works well. I did the tail tips this way, and
then used countersunk
machine screws and those thin countersunk stainless
washers. I think it
makes a good installation in fiberglass because it
gives a much bigger
bearing surface and it looks slick too.
Jesse







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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:30 pm
by Ken
The clipnuts were fairly quick to use.
The wings are a bit easier to paint and transport without the tips on.
If they are removed, screws might look better than unpainted rivets. I
suppose with screws the inspector might want the darn tips removed for
the final inspection though ;(
Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:
FWIW, I have my tips riveted, and only had to remove one once
when I damaged a tip. And I would do the same if I was building
again.

Walter


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Andrews
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 5:06 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates


Think the amount of time and effort to install nut
plates is unwarrented on
the wing tips. For inspection purposes, an inspection
plate should answer
the mail. On the rare occasion that one might need to
take the tip ... get
the punch and #30 drill bit out. Mine are getting riveted on.

Bob 612e





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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:32 pm
by Wayne G. O'Shea
He shouldn't want them off Ken. There are no controls or attachment bolts to
view that weren't seen at preclose. If he wants them off hand him the screw
driver and go get yourself a beer! : O )

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

The clipnuts were fairly quick to use.
The wings are a bit easier to paint and transport without the tips on.
If they are removed, screws might look better than unpainted rivets. I
suppose with screws the inspector might want the darn tips removed for
the final inspection though ;(
Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:
FWIW, I have my tips riveted, and only had to remove one once
when I damaged a tip. And I would do the same if I was building
again.

Walter


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Andrews
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 5:06 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates


Think the amount of time and effort to install nut
plates is unwarrented on
the wing tips. For inspection purposes, an inspection
plate should answer
the mail. On the rare occasion that one might need to
take the tip ... get
the punch and #30 drill bit out. Mine are getting riveted on.

Bob 612e





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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:32 pm
by Ken
LOL :)
Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:
He shouldn't want them off Ken. There are no controls or attachment bolts to
view that weren't seen at preclose. If he wants them off hand him the screw
driver and go get yourself a beer! : O )




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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:32 pm
by Walter Klatt
The other consideration is weight. If you apply this thinking
throughout your entire plane, it's going to weigh quite a bit
more, and will not perform as well.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 7:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates


The clipnuts were fairly quick to use.
The wings are a bit easier to paint and transport
without the tips on.
If they are removed, screws might look better than
unpainted rivets. I
suppose with screws the inspector might want the darn
tips removed for
the final inspection though ;(
Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:
FWIW, I have my tips riveted, and only had to remove one once
when I damaged a tip. And I would do the same if I
was building
again.

Walter


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Andrews
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 5:06 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates


Think the amount of time and effort to install nut
plates is unwarrented on
the wing tips. For inspection purposes, an inspection
plate should answer
the mail. On the rare occasion that one might need to
take the tip ... get
the punch and #30 drill bit out. Mine are getting
riveted on.
Bob 612e





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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:32 pm
by Jesse Jenks
I've got something going for me in this area. I way 135 pounds, and thats
soaking wet after falling off the float. I figure I can throw on some
nutplates and not notice it.
Jesse
From: Walter Klatt <Walter.Klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:17:01 -0800

The other consideration is weight. If you apply this thinking
throughout your entire plane, it's going to weigh quite a bit
more, and will not perform as well.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 7:14 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates


The clipnuts were fairly quick to use.
The wings are a bit easier to paint and transport
without the tips on.
If they are removed, screws might look better than
unpainted rivets. I
suppose with screws the inspector might want the darn
tips removed for
the final inspection though ;(
Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:
FWIW, I have my tips riveted, and only had to remove one once
when I damaged a tip. And I would do the same if I
was building
again.

Walter


riveted on.




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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:32 pm
by Dale Fultz
Glad I'm not the only small one on here. Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 9:12 PM
Subject: RE: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

I've got something going for me in this area. I way 135 pounds, and thats
soaking wet after falling off the float. I figure I can throw on some
nutplates and not notice it.
Jesse


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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:32 pm
by Jesse Jenks
Thanks to all who replied, and thanks Ken and Roger for the Aeroflash
dimensions.
I am now satisfied that I can put off the whole wing tip/nutplate/power
supply dilemma and just finish the wings and move on to the fuselage.
Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing...for a while.
Jesse
From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:29:29 -0500

Jesse
I see where you are coming from now. FWIW the cheap 3/32 commercial
aluminum countersunk rivets seem to also work fine on nutplates that
have dimpled rivet holes. They are a 120 degree cs. but still seem fine.
Rather than those countersunk stainless washers I've just be putting a
nylon washer under a truss head screw but what you are doing probably
does look better.
The aeroflash power supply base is 5.5" x 3.6".
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:
Ken,
I agree that it's better to install nutplates after the holes are
drilled
through both parts to be joined, but I have had good luck installing the
nutplates first and then drilling the screw hole in the second part
later
on. There are a couple reasons for doing it that way. First, I like to
use
3/32" solid rivets with a hand squeezer to secure the nutplates. With
those
restrictions there are places where you have to install the nutplates
to the
rib flange (or whatever) before the skin is riveted down, because you
can't
get the squeezer there with the skin on, for example the left wing's
tip rib
and the right wing's root rib. If I borrowed a rivet gun and bucking
bar I
could do the tip rib, or use the cherry 3/32 blind rivets, but I don't
like
them too much, and they're pricey. The second reason is to be able to
replace existing rivet locations with the nutplates because it can be
hard
to fit them between rivets.
The technique I have used to locate the screw holes for pre-installed
nutplates is to position the part, in this case it would be the wing
tip,
and mark a line around the perimeter of it on to the wing skin. Next
remove
the tip and draw lines perpendicular to one you just made that
intersect it
and the center of the nutplate, and extend out onto the skin 6" or so.
Then
measure as carefully as possible from the perimeter line to the center
of
the nutplate and mark the measurement right on the skin. Now put the tip
back on and align it with the perimeter line on the skin again, then
using a
ruler, extend the perpendicular lines back onto the tip. Finally,
measure
and mark the distance you marked down earlier and you have the screw
locations. It's not perfect, but If you drill the screw holes a bit
oversize
it works well. I did the tail tips this way, and then used countersunk
machine screws and those thin countersunk stainless washers. I think it
makes a good installation in fiberglass because it gives a much bigger
bearing surface and it looks slick too.
Jesse







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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:32 pm
by Jesse Jenks
Ken,
I meant to ask where you found aluminum 3/32 CS rivets? I could never find
any and tried some of the Cherry steele ones but was not happy with them.
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:29:29 -0500

Jesse
I see where you are coming from now. FWIW the cheap 3/32 commercial
aluminum countersunk rivets seem to also work fine on nutplates that
have dimpled rivet holes. They are a 120 degree cs. but still seem fine.
Rather than those countersunk stainless washers I've just be putting a
nylon washer under a truss head screw but what you are doing probably
does look better.
The aeroflash power supply base is 5.5" x 3.6".
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:
Ken,
I agree that it's better to install nutplates after the holes are
drilled
through both parts to be joined, but I have had good luck installing the
nutplates first and then drilling the screw hole in the second part
later
on. There are a couple reasons for doing it that way. First, I like to
use
3/32" solid rivets with a hand squeezer to secure the nutplates. With
those
restrictions there are places where you have to install the nutplates
to the
rib flange (or whatever) before the skin is riveted down, because you
can't
get the squeezer there with the skin on, for example the left wing's
tip rib
and the right wing's root rib. If I borrowed a rivet gun and bucking
bar I
could do the tip rib, or use the cherry 3/32 blind rivets, but I don't
like
them too much, and they're pricey. The second reason is to be able to
replace existing rivet locations with the nutplates because it can be
hard
to fit them between rivets.
The technique I have used to locate the screw holes for pre-installed
nutplates is to position the part, in this case it would be the wing
tip,
and mark a line around the perimeter of it on to the wing skin. Next
remove
the tip and draw lines perpendicular to one you just made that
intersect it
and the center of the nutplate, and extend out onto the skin 6" or so.
Then
measure as carefully as possible from the perimeter line to the center
of
the nutplate and mark the measurement right on the skin. Now put the tip
back on and align it with the perimeter line on the skin again, then
using a
ruler, extend the perpendicular lines back onto the tip. Finally,
measure
and mark the distance you marked down earlier and you have the screw
locations. It's not perfect, but If you drill the screw holes a bit
oversize
it works well. I did the tail tips this way, and then used countersunk
machine screws and those thin countersunk stainless washers. I think it
makes a good installation in fiberglass because it gives a much bigger
bearing surface and it looks slick too.
Jesse







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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:32 pm
by Ken
Directly from Textron is the cheapest. Spaenaur also stocks them so I'd
bet MSC would have them as well.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:
Ken,
I meant to ask where you found aluminum 3/32 CS rivets? I could never find
any and tried some of the Cherry steele ones but was not happy with them.
Jesse




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Rebel Wing Tips/nutplates

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:33 pm
by Drew Dalgleish
I bought a big bag of them at the oshkosh flymarket a few years ago. Mostly
though I used solid 3/32 cs rivets in countersunk holes. I know that .020
is to thin to countersink but I'm not worried about the nutplates pulling
out the back of the hole. 3/32 rivets are small enough that you can squeeze
them with a pair of vice grips.

At 06:36 PM 12/10/2005 -0800, you wrote:
Ken,
I meant to ask where you found aluminum 3/32 CS rivets? I could never find
any and tried some of the Cherry steele ones but was not happy with them.
Jesse
Drew





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