The Murphy Builders Site

From: Jeff McMurrer <westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:47:56 -0800

Jesse,

I installed these tips almost a 18 months after building the wings. Tips
were not available when the kit was purchased.

Spar extentions can be done at anytime.

Why would you want to get in a finished wing? (Drill rivets if you want
in, at this time in the build we should all be good at that:)

Yes, the spar ext and stringers are riveted to wing and tip with a stringer
splice/overlap.

Tips are available from MAM, droop tips are an ongoing production.

I'll try to dig up some more pics of tips being installed.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, December 4, 2005 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips

Jeff,
Can the mods to the spar and stringers be done if the wings are
already
finished? Also, how do the tips come off for accessing inside the
wing? Are
the spar and stringer extensions riveted to the wing and the tips?
Does anyone know if these tips are currently available?
I sent a request to MAM shipping as well.
Thanks
Jesse

From: Jeff McMurrer <westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:01:39 -0800

Jesse,

The clecos are holding my stringer splice, for my spar

extensions. Spars

extend into the wingtip aprox 8 to 10 inches.

Jeff


----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, December 4, 2005 9:12 am
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips

---

---

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Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your plane looks great by the
way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers to compare with Rebels
using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the wings with access
through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I might have to rethink that
if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip design, and there are
definitely differing opinions on what works best. Some sources say tip
design makes little difference on low speed aircraft. An example given is
the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient light aircraft (not
including experimentals I'm sure) and they have squared off wing tips. I
know some of you swear by the Fife tips, but I would bet the performance
increases are mainly due to a bit more wing area over the standard MAM tips
so if the MAM droop tips add still more area they could be the best yet.
On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and selling these tips for the
Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your plane looks great by

way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers to compare with

using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the wings with access
through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I might have to rethink

if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip design, and there are
definitely differing opinions on what works best. Some sources say tip
design makes little difference on low speed aircraft. An example given is
the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient light aircraft (not
including experimentals I'm sure) and they have squared off wing tips. I
know some of you swear by the Fife tips, but I would bet the performance
increases are mainly due to a bit more wing area over the standard MAM

so if the MAM droop tips add still more area they could be the best yet.
On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and selling these tips for

Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

From: Jeff McMurrer <westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:47:56 -0800

Jesse,

I installed these tips almost a 18 months after building the wings. Tips
were not available when the kit was purchased.

Spar extentions can be done at anytime.

Why would you want to get in a finished wing? (Drill rivets if you want
in, at this time in the build we should all be good at that:)

Yes, the spar ext and stringers are riveted to wing and tip with a

splice/overlap.

Tips are available from MAM, droop tips are an ongoing production.

I'll try to dig up some more pics of tips being installed.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, December 4, 2005 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips

Jeff,
Can the mods to the spar and stringers be done if the wings are
already
finished? Also, how do the tips come off for accessing inside the
wing? Are
the spar and stringer extensions riveted to the wing and the tips?
Does anyone know if these tips are currently available?
I sent a request to MAM shipping as well.
Thanks
Jesse

extensions. Spars --- --- -- --


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Ahh you noticed why I asked! However the explanation may be that
Hoerner's effectively do add extra effective wingspan beyond their
physical dimensions. The lift on a 14" hoerner tip is probably just as
much as the lift on a 22" droop tip. If that is indeed the reason, it
makes me wonder why the factory didn't go to hoerners.

I believe an additional plus for hoerner's should be greater stability
as any sideslip may tend to lift the low wing more than other types and
probably slightly less profile and induced drag.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Jeff !

Interesting ! I take it that the factory have changed their
position on tip length then ...... They specifically insisted that
Dave Fife make HIS Hoerner tips SHORTER - so they were no longer than
the original Rebel wing tips. This was to "reduce the extra load
on the wing resulting from increased span"..... or do they
recommend shortening the droop tips too ??? ;-^)

........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 04 December 2005 07:57 pm, Jeff McMurrer wrote:

Ken,

Droop tips are aprox 22 inches wide. They do add more to the wing area.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Date: Saturday, December 3, 2005 5:14 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips

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Tip design is probably more important on a 5 foot cord Hershey Bar wing
than on a Mooney tapered wing or even a single engine Cessna wing that
is partially tapered. There is an article on the net somewhere that does
a fairly detailed comparison of aftermarket tips on a single engine
cessna. IIRC the hoerner did significantly better than other designs. By
significant I mean a 2 or 3 knot change in cruise and/or stall speeds.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your plane looks great by
the
way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers to compare with
Rebels
using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the wings with access
through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I might have to rethink
that
if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip design, and there are
definitely differing opinions on what works best. Some sources say tip
design makes little difference on low speed aircraft. An example given is
the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient light aircraft (not
including experimentals I'm sure) and they have squared off wing tips. I
know some of you swear by the Fife tips, but I would bet the performance
increases are mainly due to a bit more wing area over the standard MAM
tips
so if the MAM droop tips add still more area they could be the best yet.
On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and selling these tips for
the
Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

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Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your plane looks great by

way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers to compare with

using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the wings with access
through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I might have to rethink

if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip design, and there are
definitely differing opinions on what works best. Some sources say tip
design makes little difference on low speed aircraft. An example given is
the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient light aircraft (not
including experimentals I'm sure) and they have squared off wing tips. I
know some of you swear by the Fife tips, but I would bet the performance
increases are mainly due to a bit more wing area over the standard MAM

so if the MAM droop tips add still more area they could be the best yet.
On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and selling these tips for

Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

From: Jeff McMurrer <westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:47:56 -0800

Jesse,

I installed these tips almost a 18 months after building the wings. Tips
were not available when the kit was purchased.

Spar extentions can be done at anytime.

Why would you want to get in a finished wing? (Drill rivets if you want
in, at this time in the build we should all be good at that:)

Yes, the spar ext and stringers are riveted to wing and tip with a

splice/overlap.

Tips are available from MAM, droop tips are an ongoing production.

I'll try to dig up some more pics of tips being installed.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, December 4, 2005 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips

Jeff,
Can the mods to the spar and stringers be done if the wings are
already
finished? Also, how do the tips come off for accessing inside the
wing? Are
the spar and stringer extensions riveted to the wing and the tips?
Does anyone know if these tips are currently available?
I sent a request to MAM shipping as well.
Thanks
Jesse

extensions. Spars --- --- -- --


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-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 9:23 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips


Tip design is probably more important on a 5 foot cord
Hershey Bar wing
than on a Mooney tapered wing or even a single engine
Cessna wing that
is partially tapered. There is an article on the net
somewhere that does
a fairly detailed comparison of aftermarket tips on a
single engine
cessna. IIRC the hoerner did significantly better than
other designs. By
significant I mean a 2 or 3 knot change in cruise
and/or stall speeds.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your

plane looks great by the

way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers

to compare with Rebels

using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the

wings with access

through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I

might have to rethink that

if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip

design, and there are

definitely differing opinions on what works best.

Some sources say tip

design makes little difference on low speed aircraft.

An example given is

the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient

light aircraft (not

including experimentals I'm sure) and they have

squared off wing tips. I

know some of you swear by the Fife tips, but I would

bet the performance

increases are mainly due to a bit more wing area over

the standard MAM tips

so if the MAM droop tips add still more area they

could be the best yet.

On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and

selling these tips for the

Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

-------------------------------------------------------
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-------------------------------------------------------
----------

You're right, across the board, Ken ! My experience with the
Fife tips has shown exactly what you describe - improved lateral
stability, better recover from slips, and a tiny bit more speed.
The improved low speed stability was immediately noticeable.

Certainly, the climb performance and handling in turbulence
felt like increased wing span - it was much happier with TWO notches
of negative flapperon for cruise. (Presumable dumping more of the
surplus lift ...) :-)

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 05 December 2005 07:59 am, Ken wrote:

Ahh you noticed why I asked! However the explanation may be that
Hoerner's effectively do add extra effective wingspan beyond their
physical dimensions. The lift on a 14" hoerner tip is probably just as
much as the lift on a 22" droop tip. If that is indeed the reason, it
makes me wonder why the factory didn't go to hoerners.

I believe an additional plus for hoerner's should be greater stability
as any sideslip may tend to lift the low wing more than other types and
probably slightly less profile and induced drag.

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Jeff !

Interesting ! I take it that the factory have changed their
position on tip length then ...... They specifically insisted that
Dave Fife make HIS Hoerner tips SHORTER - so they were no longer than
the original Rebel wing tips. This was to "reduce the extra load
on the wing resulting from increased span"..... or do they
recommend shortening the droop tips too ??? ;-^)

........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 04 December 2005 07:57 pm, Jeff McMurrer wrote:

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Tip design is probably more important on a 5 foot cord Hershey Bar wing
than on a Mooney tapered wing or even a single engine Cessna wing that
is partially tapered. There is an article on the net somewhere that does
a fairly detailed comparison of aftermarket tips on a single engine
cessna. IIRC the hoerner did significantly better than other designs. By
significant I mean a 2 or 3 knot change in cruise and/or stall speeds.
Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your plane looks great by
the
way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers to compare with
Rebels
using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the wings with access
through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I might have to rethink
that
if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip design, and there are
definitely differing opinions on what works best. Some sources say tip
design makes little difference on low speed aircraft. An example given is
the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient light aircraft (not
including experimentals I'm sure) and they have squared off wing tips. I
know some of you swear by the Fife tips, but I would bet the performance
increases are mainly due to a bit more wing area over the standard MAM
tips
so if the MAM droop tips add still more area they could be the best yet.
On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and selling these tips for
the
Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

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Hi Bob

I was sent a mail shot by MAM advertising the new tips when they came out,
and now have a set here for installation in my Elite when finished.

The MAM paperwork definitely quotes their use with Elite's. I'll check
tomorrow if it also says Rebel's.

Nigel
745E

Hi Nigel !

Thanks for the update ! I've heard from 2 people now that Murphy's
installation kit for the droop tips includes information about

on the Elite and Rebel, as well as the Moose.

They are OK for both kits, as long as the spar addition and
stringer extensions are added, so I guess the extra length is no problem.
These tips will be standard on the Yukon. Learning every day !! :-)

Would like to test-fly a set on a Rebel - maybe one day ....
Hope some of you out there beat me to it !!! :-)

Keep rivetting - it's worth it !!! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 05 December 2005 02:23 pm, N.Smith wrote:

Hi Bob

I was sent a mail shot by MAM advertising the new tips when they came

and now have a set here for installation in my Elite when finished.

The MAM paperwork definitely quotes their use with Elite's. I'll check
tomorrow if it also says Rebel's.

Nigel
745E

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Hi Bob

I was sent a mail shot by MAM advertising the new tips when they came out,
and now have a set here for installation in my Elite when finished.

The MAM paperwork definitely quotes their use with Elite's. I'll check
tomorrow if it also says Rebel's.

Nigel
745E

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: 05 December 2005 18:18
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips



Hi Jesse !

There is NO actual physical increase in wing area with the Fife
Hoerner tips - the factory insisted that they must be shortened to
the SAME length as the original factory tips, because of concerns
about increased bending load.

I understand that all later model Mooneys HAVE Hoerner tips,
and they are available as after-market add ons - must be a reason !

On the structural issue - the factory made these tips for
the MOOSE - I haven't seen anything that says they can be used
on a Rebel, cut down or otherwise. Of course, you can do as you
please - it is Experimental .... ;-)

Having flown my Rebel with both the standard tips and the
Fife Hoerner tips, I can say there DEFINITELY IS a performance and
handling improvement. There is better lateral stability, as the
Hoerner tip effectively adds a bit of dihedral. I would suspect
the opposite from the droop tips, as well as a bit less visibility
off the wing tip. There is also a definite reduction in takeoff
distance with the Hoerner tips - Curt has the real-world measurements !
And an improvement in low-speed handling, as well.

As Ken says, the numbers are relatively small - maybe 2-3 mph
reduction in stall speed, and 1-2 mph increase in cruise, but the
performance improvements are measurable and feel-able ! :-)

I would be interested in seeing the numbers for someone doing
the SAME tests Curt did, with droop tips of the SAME span. That
would tell the tale ....

Just my personal opinion - the Fife Hoerner wing & tail tips
are THE best bang-for-the-buck Rebel aftermarket add-on out there !!
Add in the McKenzie STOL kit of cuffs & fences, and you've got
outstanding STOL performance !! (..... and yes, maybe even those
NWA VGs like Pierre's Rebel - they do help....) :-)
(Of course, so does that tuned, balanced 195 HP IO-360 with the
Prince prop ! ;-) ) :-) :-) :-)

Just MHO - YMMD .... ;-)

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 05 December 2005 11:46 am, Jesse Jenks wrote:

Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your plane looks great by

the

way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers to compare with

Rebels

using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the wings with access
through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I might have to rethink

that

if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip design, and there are
definitely differing opinions on what works best. Some sources say tip
design makes little difference on low speed aircraft. An example given is
the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient light aircraft (not
including experimentals I'm sure) and they have squared off wing tips. I
know some of you swear by the Fife tips, but I would bet the performance
increases are mainly due to a bit more wing area over the standard MAM

tips

so if the MAM droop tips add still more area they could be the best yet.
On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and selling these tips for

the

Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

From: Jeff McMurrer <westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:47:56 -0800

Jesse,

I installed these tips almost a 18 months after building the wings.
Tips
were not available when the kit was purchased.

Spar extentions can be done at anytime.

Why would you want to get in a finished wing? (Drill rivets if you want
in, at this time in the build we should all be good at that:)

Yes, the spar ext and stringers are riveted to wing and tip with a

stringer

splice/overlap.

Tips are available from MAM, droop tips are an ongoing production.

I'll try to dig up some more pics of tips being installed.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, December 4, 2005 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips


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From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Wing Tips
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 13:17:40 -0500

Hi Jesse !

There is NO actual physical increase in wing area with the Fife
Hoerner tips - the factory insisted that they must be shortened to
the SAME length as the original factory tips, because of concerns
about increased bending load.

I understand that all later model Mooneys HAVE Hoerner tips,
and they are available as after-market add ons - must be a reason !

On the structural issue - the factory made these tips for
the MOOSE - I haven't seen anything that says they can be used
on a Rebel, cut down or otherwise. Of course, you can do as you
please - it is Experimental .... ;-)

Having flown my Rebel with both the standard tips and the
Fife Hoerner tips, I can say there DEFINITELY IS a performance and
handling improvement. There is better lateral stability, as the
Hoerner tip effectively adds a bit of dihedral. I would suspect
the opposite from the droop tips, as well as a bit less visibility
off the wing tip. There is also a definite reduction in takeoff
distance with the Hoerner tips - Curt has the real-world measurements !
And an improvement in low-speed handling, as well.

As Ken says, the numbers are relatively small - maybe 2-3 mph
reduction in stall speed, and 1-2 mph increase in cruise, but the
performance improvements are measurable and feel-able ! :-)

I would be interested in seeing the numbers for someone doing
the SAME tests Curt did, with droop tips of the SAME span. That
would tell the tale ....

Just my personal opinion - the Fife Hoerner wing & tail tips
are THE best bang-for-the-buck Rebel aftermarket add-on out there !!
Add in the McKenzie STOL kit of cuffs & fences, and you've got
outstanding STOL performance !! (..... and yes, maybe even those
NWA VGs like Pierre's Rebel - they do help....) :-)
(Of course, so does that tuned, balanced 195 HP IO-360 with the
Prince prop ! ;-) ) :-) :-) :-)

Just MHO - YMMD .... ;-)

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Monday 05 December 2005 11:46 am, Jesse Jenks wrote:

Jeff,
I would like to see more pictures. Thank you. Your plane looks great by

the

way. Maybe you could give us some performance numbers to compare with

Rebels

using Fife tips.
I have planned to put the strobe power packs in the wings with access
through the tip for maintenance or replacement. I might have to rethink

that

if I use the droop tips.
I have done a little google searching on wing tip design, and there are
definitely differing opinions on what works best. Some sources say tip
design makes little difference on low speed aircraft. An example given

is

the Mooney. They are supposedly the most efficient light aircraft (not
including experimentals I'm sure) and they have squared off wing tips. I
know some of you swear by the Fife tips, but I would bet the performance
increases are mainly due to a bit more wing area over the standard MAM

tips

so if the MAM droop tips add still more area they could be the best yet.
On the structural issue, if MAM is producing and selling these tips for

the

Rebel then they must approve their use right?
Jesse

From: Jeff McMurrer <westcoastkitplanes@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 19:47:56 -0800

Jesse,

I installed these tips almost a 18 months after building the wings.

Tips

were not available when the kit was purchased.

Spar extentions can be done at anytime.

Why would you want to get in a finished wing? (Drill rivets if you

want

in, at this time in the build we should all be good at that:)

Yes, the spar ext and stringers are riveted to wing and tip with a

stringer

splice/overlap.

Tips are available from MAM, droop tips are an ongoing production.

I'll try to dig up some more pics of tips being installed.

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse Jenks <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
Date: Sunday, December 4, 2005 6:58 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel, Moose & Elite Wing Tips


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OK, I'm going to demonstrate, once again, how much I don't know.

I've been looking at various Chris Heintz designs all of which use a
Hoerner style tip fabricated of aluminum. The Sonex tip also is a
Hoerner style in metal. In looking at them the design doesn't seem
too difficult for hand tools and Zenith and Sonex plans builders
fabricate them from scratch. Why not sneak a look at a Zenith or
Sonex plan and adapt the metal Hoerner tip to the Murphy wing?

John...




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