The Murphy Builders Site

That is a very good question about the Rebel float spin test. I was taking a bi-annual flight review last week,
in my Rebel Amphib, when the instructor ask me to do some slow flight and a stall.
I was doing some slow flight turns while keeping the Rebel right on the edge. When
it broke and the wing dropped it required a lot more rudder and a longer time to
arrest the spin entry than I ever experience on wheels. It did get my attention,
for a moment, until the spin began to reverse.

I do remember, when testing the amphib configuration, a tendency for wing to drop
in a stall but I had never stalled it in a slow flight turn which puts the plane
in a rather uncoordinated flight configuration and a good scenerio for spin entry.

Funny, the instructor never said a thing. I'm not sure if he thought that was normal
for a float plane or I was just a bad pilot.? He did not have a lot of experience
with float planes but he did ask me if he could take it off and land it on water,
so we spent most of the review just having fun. I didn't complain. :)

I'm particularly interested in what Bobp might have to say about the amphib spin
qualities.

Bruce
t get it to down load. Any help would be appreciated.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------





________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Bruce !

Meant to answer the original query, but got busy ....

What you experienced is exactly what one would expect - with
all the drag & weight of the floats, rudder response is considerably
reduced. I believe most certified aircraft are placarded against spins
when on floats .... It's pretty risky business ! Once you get all
that mass twirling around, it takes a LOT to stop it, so longer
recovery times and much greater loss of altitude will result.

Never had quite enough nerve, desire, or altitude to do a full
spin on floats - but stalls are no big problem, as you now know...

The original Rebel had extensive spin testing, with a moveable
weight in the aft fuselage, moved progressively to the aft C of G
limit, and beyond ! Do not try this at home !! :-) It was all
carefully prepared, with dual parachutes - one on the tail, to stop
the spin if nothing else worked, and one for the rest, in case everything
went wrong !! You can see videos of the Rebel spinning on the early
promo tapes. AFAIK, no spin testing was done on floats, as that
certainly is not a common practice - and something to avoid.

The Rebel is exciting if you leave it in more than
1 turn ! The first turn is slow & gentle - if you hold it in
longer, it really goes around !! It's VERY easy to recover,
though - just relaxing on the controls will snap it out immediately.
Full opposite rudder, and gently easing the stick forward works
instantly ! Be careful not to push the stick very far forward -
- just relaxing an inch or 2 is lots ... or you might end up
inverted ! :-) All of that is on wheels - add floats,
and everything changes ! Probably NOT a good thing to try ...

When flying slowly, it is probably best to do slipping turns
- I've been told often that it is impossible to spin out of a
sideslip. I've certainly tried many times in many aircraft -
never succeeded ! The danger can come in the recovery from
the slip, though, if you don't get the nose down early !!

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 19 November 2005 02:41 pm, Bruce Georgen wrote:

That is a very good question about the Rebel float spin test. I was taking

a bi-annual flight review last week,

in my Rebel Amphib, when the instructor ask me to do some slow flight and

a stall.

I was doing some slow flight turns while keeping the Rebel right on the

edge. When

it broke and the wing dropped it required a lot more rudder and a longer

time to

arrest the spin entry than I ever experience on wheels. It did get my

attention,

for a moment, until the spin began to reverse.

I do remember, when testing the amphib configuration, a tendency for wing

to drop

in a stall but I had never stalled it in a slow flight turn which puts the

plane

in a rather uncoordinated flight configuration and a good scenerio for

spin entry.

Funny, the instructor never said a thing. I'm not sure if he thought that

was normal

for a float plane or I was just a bad pilot.? He did not have a lot of

experience

with float planes but he did ask me if he could take it off and land it on

water,

so we spent most of the review just having fun. I didn't complain. :)

I'm particularly interested in what Bobp might have to say about the

amphib spin

qualities.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Bobp, I knew you would add some clarification to the Rebel spin characteristics on floats. You and Wayne have lots of experience in general, and particularly with MAM products. I tend to think of you, Bobp, as "the test pilot" and Wayne as "the tech advisory". Thank you both for all your contributors and assistance to us builder/pilots. I'm sure you guys realize how valuable your knowledge and experience has been, saving builders/pilots hours of time and money. Maybe even a life or two.

And thanks to everyone (to numerous to mention) who share their experiences and knowledge with this list. This is what the list should be about, and I think it does a nice job. :)

Bruce



---Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Sent: Nov 19, 2005 5:22 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?


Hi Bruce !

Meant to answer the original query, but got busy ....

What you experienced is exactly what one would expect - with
all the drag & weight of the floats, rudder response is considerably
reduced. I believe most certified aircraft are placarded against spins
when on floats .... It's pretty risky business ! Once you get all
that mass twirling around, it takes a LOT to stop it, so longer
recovery times and much greater loss of altitude will result.

Never had quite enough nerve, desire, or altitude to do a full
spin on floats - but stalls are no big problem, as you now know...

The original Rebel had extensive spin testing, with a moveable
weight in the aft fuselage, moved progressively to the aft C of G
limit, and beyond ! Do not try this at home !! :-) It was all
carefully prepared, with dual parachutes - one on the tail, to stop
the spin if nothing else worked, and one for the rest, in case everything
went wrong !! You can see videos of the Rebel spinning on the early
promo tapes. AFAIK, no spin testing was done on floats, as that
certainly is not a common practice - and something to avoid.

The Rebel is exciting if you leave it in more than
1 turn ! The first turn is slow & gentle - if you hold it in
longer, it really goes around !! It's VERY easy to recover,
though - just relaxing on the controls will snap it out immediately.
Full opposite rudder, and gently easing the stick forward works
instantly ! Be careful not to push the stick very far forward -
- just relaxing an inch or 2 is lots ... or you might end up
inverted ! :-) All of that is on wheels - add floats,
and everything changes ! Probably NOT a good thing to try ...

When flying slowly, it is probably best to do slipping turns
- I've been told often that it is impossible to spin out of a
sideslip. I've certainly tried many times in many aircraft -
never succeeded ! The danger can come in the recovery from
the slip, though, if you don't get the nose down early !!

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 19 November 2005 02:41 pm, Bruce Georgen wrote:

That is a very good question about the Rebel float spin test. I was taking

a bi-annual flight review last week,

in my Rebel Amphib, when the instructor ask me to do some slow flight and

a stall.

I was doing some slow flight turns while keeping the Rebel right on the

edge. When

it broke and the wing dropped it required a lot more rudder and a longer

time to

arrest the spin entry than I ever experience on wheels. It did get my

attention,

for a moment, until the spin began to reverse.

I do remember, when testing the amphib configuration, a tendency for wing

to drop

in a stall but I had never stalled it in a slow flight turn which puts the

plane

in a rather uncoordinated flight configuration and a good scenerio for

spin entry.

Funny, the instructor never said a thing. I'm not sure if he thought that

was normal

for a float plane or I was just a bad pilot.? He did not have a lot of

experience

with float planes but he did ask me if he could take it off and land it on

water,

so we spent most of the review just having fun. I didn't complain. :)

I'm particularly interested in what Bobp might have to say about the

amphib spin

qualities.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------





________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Well said Bruce--you got my vote on that!
Brian Breathnach

Bruce Georgen wrote:

Thanks Bobp, I knew you would add some clarification to the Rebel spin characteristics on floats. You and Wayne have lots of experience in general, and particularly with MAM products. I tend to think of you, Bobp, as "the test pilot" and Wayne as "the tech advisory". Thank you both for all your contributors and assistance to us builder/pilots. I'm sure you guys realize how valuable your knowledge and experience has been, saving builders/pilots hours of time and money. Maybe even a life or two.

And thanks to everyone (to numerous to mention) who share their experiences and knowledge with this list. This is what the list should be about, and I think it does a nice job. :)

Bruce



---Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Sent: Nov 19, 2005 5:22 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?


Hi Bruce !

Meant to answer the original query, but got busy ....

What you experienced is exactly what one would expect - with
all the drag & weight of the floats, rudder response is considerably
reduced. I believe most certified aircraft are placarded against spins
when on floats .... It's pretty risky business ! Once you get all
that mass twirling around, it takes a LOT to stop it, so longer
recovery times and much greater loss of altitude will result.

Never had quite enough nerve, desire, or altitude to do a full
spin on floats - but stalls are no big problem, as you now know...

The original Rebel had extensive spin testing, with a moveable
weight in the aft fuselage, moved progressively to the aft C of G
limit, and beyond ! Do not try this at home !! :-) It was all
carefully prepared, with dual parachutes - one on the tail, to stop
the spin if nothing else worked, and one for the rest, in case everything
went wrong !! You can see videos of the Rebel spinning on the early
promo tapes. AFAIK, no spin testing was done on floats, as that
certainly is not a common practice - and something to avoid.

The Rebel is exciting if you leave it in more than
1 turn ! The first turn is slow & gentle - if you hold it in
longer, it really goes around !! It's VERY easy to recover,
though - just relaxing on the controls will snap it out immediately.
Full opposite rudder, and gently easing the stick forward works
instantly ! Be careful not to push the stick very far forward -
- just relaxing an inch or 2 is lots ... or you might end up
inverted ! :-) All of that is on wheels - add floats,
and everything changes ! Probably NOT a good thing to try ...

When flying slowly, it is probably best to do slipping turns
- I've been told often that it is impossible to spin out of a
sideslip. I've certainly tried many times in many aircraft -
never succeeded ! The danger can come in the recovery from
the slip, though, if you don't get the nose down early !!

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Saturday 19 November 2005 02:41 pm, Bruce Georgen wrote:

That is a very good question about the Rebel float spin test. I was taking

a bi-annual flight review last week,

in my Rebel Amphib, when the instructor ask me to do some slow flight and

a stall.

I was doing some slow flight turns while keeping the Rebel right on the

edge. When

it broke and the wing dropped it required a lot more rudder and a longer

time to

arrest the spin entry than I ever experience on wheels. It did get my

attention,

for a moment, until the spin began to reverse.

I do remember, when testing the amphib configuration, a tendency for wing

to drop

in a stall but I had never stalled it in a slow flight turn which puts the

plane

in a rather uncoordinated flight configuration and a good scenerio for

spin entry.

Funny, the instructor never said a thing. I'm not sure if he thought that

was normal

for a float plane or I was just a bad pilot.? He did not have a lot of

experience

with float planes but he did ask me if he could take it off and land it on

water,

so we spent most of the review just having fun. I didn't complain. :)

I'm particularly interested in what Bobp might have to say about the

amphib spin

qualities.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------





________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
http://www.peoplepc.com



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I wondered how it would spin with floats, but so far have no had the
fortitude to try it on my Elite. There appears to be no tendency to drop a
wing in the stall, which surprises me in view of the lack of wasjout. Now,
if you want to be a real test pilot, let it wind up for six turns before
attempting recovery!

Al





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Bob and everyone,
Please don't take this as a Murphy bash. I just want to know how much of the
flight envelope has been explored before I end up a test pilot some day.
I suspected no spin test had been done by Murphy on foats. I don't know if
certified airplanes are required to be spin tested again when certified for
floats, but it seems like a logical thing to do if a spin test is required
for certification on wheels (I don't know that it is required, but I believe
it is). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if Murphy went to all
the trouble to do thorough spin testing for the Rebel on wheels, then why
not do it again on floats, knowing that the spin characteristics for
floatplanes are not good? The whole point of a spin test is to make sure the
average pilot will be able to recover from a spin, so it doesn't make sense
that just because you bolted floats to your airplane you will NEVER get into
a spin. I'm sure not many people go out and do spins on floats just for fun,
but the point is that accidental spins have caused many airplanes to crash,
so it would be nice to know that if you ever found yourself in an accidental
spin you would know that you could actually recover using normal techniques.
Jesse

From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:33:14 -0500

I wondered how it would spin with floats, but so far have no had the
fortitude to try it on my Elite. There appears to be no tendency to drop a
wing in the stall, which surprises me in view of the lack of wasjout. Now,
if you want to be a real test pilot, let it wind up for six turns before
attempting recovery!

Al





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Jesse !

As I said, I don't know of ANY aircraft that is certified as
approved for spins on floats. It is a known, risky situation,
and I doubt any manufacturer is going to encourage folks to venture
there. Maybe you could ask Cessna ... ;-)

Many aircraft specifically say "Intentional spins prohibited",
and one licencing condition for homebuilts is "Aerobatics Prohibited".
There is some debate as to spins being legal at all ... I understand
that spins have not been taught in US flight schools for many years,
and now only a 'demonstration' incipient recovery is required in Canada !
It's pretty silly to say that spins won't happen if we don't teach
people how to start them - but that's what governments have done !

I totally agree that it is good to know how to recover properly,
and would encourage anyone to get the needed instruction, in case they
ever get into one. Training will make it easier to avoid the problem
at the start ! Certainly, it would be nice to know that someone
has tested all possible flight situations you might encounter, and
documented how to survive them - but I've never seen spin recovery
on floats, or skis, in any Pilot Operating Handbook ! ;-)
For that matter, "how to recover from an inverted flat spin" is
not well documented either .... ;-^) (tongue firmly in cheek !) :-)

That said, I also don't know of ANY OTHER kit manufacturer who
have done as much structural and flight testing on their kits as
Murphy have done. I've certainly never heard of ANY other manufacturer
bringing in independent engineers to verify their calculations,
and certainly not to build test stands and actually load samples
of structure to design limits - and beyond. I've personally
witnessed that at Murphy's plant ! Dick Hiscock was a brilliant
engineer, with impressive credentials, and he was impressed with
Darryl's knack for making things "Simple, Light, and Strong".
Of course, nobody's perfect - but Murphy have certainly done
as much as they reasonably could to ensure customer safety.

One key point is that, AFAIK, there's NEVER been an in-flight
structural failure of any Murphy kitplane - and I know some folks have
really put them to the test !

Sorry - I'll get off the soap box now ! :-) Just wanted to
say that, while one <would expect> reasonable care in kit design,
there's many a kit out there that has never even had a stress limit
calculation done on it, never mind a spin test !!

It's still "Experimental Aviation" ! :-)

Be careful out there !

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 20 November 2005 12:26 pm, Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Bob and everyone,
Please don't take this as a Murphy bash. I just want to know how much of

the

flight envelope has been explored before I end up a test pilot some day.
I suspected no spin test had been done by Murphy on foats. I don't know if
certified airplanes are required to be spin tested again when certified

for

floats, but it seems like a logical thing to do if a spin test is required
for certification on wheels (I don't know that it is required, but I

believe

it is). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if Murphy went to all
the trouble to do thorough spin testing for the Rebel on wheels, then why
not do it again on floats, knowing that the spin characteristics for
floatplanes are not good? The whole point of a spin test is to make sure

the

average pilot will be able to recover from a spin, so it doesn't make

sense

that just because you bolted floats to your airplane you will NEVER get

into

a spin. I'm sure not many people go out and do spins on floats just for

fun,

but the point is that accidental spins have caused many airplanes to

crash,

so it would be nice to know that if you ever found yourself in an

accidental

spin you would know that you could actually recover using normal

techniques.

Jesse

From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:33:14 -0500

I wondered how it would spin with floats, but so far have no had the
fortitude to try it on my Elite. There appears to be no tendency to drop

a

wing in the stall, which surprises me in view of the lack of wasjout.

Now,

if you want to be a real test pilot, let it wind up for six turns before
attempting recovery!

Al





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I can not let this question go unanswered. I may be a little harsh,
but lets not forget that Murphy nor is anyone else required to do spin
testing in an EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. You are flying an EXPERIMENTAL
aircraft! If you want to know the spin characteristics with wheels, floats,
skis, doors removed canoes tied to the floats, etc. then it is up to you.
YOU are the MANUFACTURER of the aircraft. No two people are even going to
build the aircraft exactly alike. No two flights are going to be exactly
alight. The center of gravity location is crucial to spin recovery no matter
the technique.
YOU ARE the test pilot!
The very fact that you are asking these questions may indicate that an
experimental aircraft may not be the right fit for your flying.
That said, if you are afraid of stalls or spins, then get lots of
instruction in them so you feel comfortable. Do it in an aircraft that is
certified for aerobatics. Get comfortable with the feel of the aircraft as
it enters a spin. Learn what a spin is and how to avoid them. Learn
different techniques for spin recovery. (all aircraft do NOT recover with
the same techniques).
The FAA today concentrates on spin avoidance rather than spin recovery.
They have even removed the spin recovery requirement from the Flight
Instructors test!

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 12:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?


Thanks Bob and everyone,
Please don't take this as a Murphy bash. I just want to know how much of the
flight envelope has been explored before I end up a test pilot some day.
I suspected no spin test had been done by Murphy on foats. I don't know if
certified airplanes are required to be spin tested again when certified for
floats, but it seems like a logical thing to do if a spin test is required
for certification on wheels (I don't know that it is required, but I believe
it is). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if Murphy went to all
the trouble to do thorough spin testing for the Rebel on wheels, then why
not do it again on floats, knowing that the spin characteristics for
floatplanes are not good? The whole point of a spin test is to make sure the
average pilot will be able to recover from a spin, so it doesn't make sense
that just because you bolted floats to your airplane you will NEVER get into
a spin. I'm sure not many people go out and do spins on floats just for fun,
but the point is that accidental spins have caused many airplanes to crash,
so it would be nice to know that if you ever found yourself in an accidental
spin you would know that you could actually recover using normal techniques.
Jesse

From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:33:14 -0500

I wondered how it would spin with floats, but so far have no had the
fortitude to try it on my Elite. There appears to be no tendency to drop a
wing in the stall, which surprises me in view of the lack of wasjout. Now,
if you want to be a real test pilot, let it wind up for six turns before
attempting recovery!

Al





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------








-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Bob, Thanks for the reminder... ;-)

Dave

At 10:48 20-11-05, you wrote:

It's still "Experimental Aviation" ! :-)

Be careful out there !

......bobp

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like to echo Bob's "be careful out there". My concern over this topic
is that it might tempt one of you to start testing the spin characteristics
of your float equipped plane without proper precautions. As a bare minimum
I would recommend spin training, a parachute for the pilot, and lot's of
altitude. A properly designed tail chute would be nice. As a younger pilot
I decided to teach myself aerobatics in a Murphy Renegade Spirit and scared
myself pretty good. No parachute, but at least plenty of altitude. (No the
FEDs can't get me now for something I did years ago.) I decided to try an
immelman turn (I think that's what it's called). Dove for speed, pulled
into the first half of a loop, then, intending to do a half roll at the top,
did a full roll and ended up inverted, fully stalled, and entered an
inverted spin. Luckily, spins were still part of the training when I got my
Flight Instructor Certificate. I knew I needed to find opposite rudder and
lower the nose to get the wings flying again. Finding opposite rudder and
which way to move the stick to lower the nose when unexpectedly inverted is
tricky. I guessed right and the spin stopped, then I basically completed
the loop I originally started. Do you think maybe I should have had some
aerobatic training and a chute on?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 9:48 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?


Hi Jesse !

As I said, I don't know of ANY aircraft that is certified as
approved for spins on floats. It is a known, risky situation,
and I doubt any manufacturer is going to encourage folks to venture
there. Maybe you could ask Cessna ... ;-)

Many aircraft specifically say "Intentional spins prohibited",
and one licencing condition for homebuilts is "Aerobatics Prohibited".
There is some debate as to spins being legal at all ... I understand
that spins have not been taught in US flight schools for many years,
and now only a 'demonstration' incipient recovery is required in Canada !
It's pretty silly to say that spins won't happen if we don't teach
people how to start them - but that's what governments have done !

I totally agree that it is good to know how to recover properly,
and would encourage anyone to get the needed instruction, in case they
ever get into one. Training will make it easier to avoid the problem
at the start ! Certainly, it would be nice to know that someone
has tested all possible flight situations you might encounter, and
documented how to survive them - but I've never seen spin recovery
on floats, or skis, in any Pilot Operating Handbook ! ;-)
For that matter, "how to recover from an inverted flat spin" is
not well documented either .... ;-^) (tongue firmly in cheek !) :-)

That said, I also don't know of ANY OTHER kit manufacturer who
have done as much structural and flight testing on their kits as
Murphy have done. I've certainly never heard of ANY other manufacturer
bringing in independent engineers to verify their calculations,
and certainly not to build test stands and actually load samples
of structure to design limits - and beyond. I've personally
witnessed that at Murphy's plant ! Dick Hiscock was a brilliant
engineer, with impressive credentials, and he was impressed with
Darryl's knack for making things "Simple, Light, and Strong".
Of course, nobody's perfect - but Murphy have certainly done
as much as they reasonably could to ensure customer safety.

One key point is that, AFAIK, there's NEVER been an in-flight
structural failure of any Murphy kitplane - and I know some folks have
really put them to the test !

Sorry - I'll get off the soap box now ! :-) Just wanted to
say that, while one <would expect> reasonable care in kit design,
there's many a kit out there that has never even had a stress limit
calculation done on it, never mind a spin test !!

It's still "Experimental Aviation" ! :-)

Be careful out there !

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Sunday 20 November 2005 12:26 pm, Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Bob and everyone,
Please don't take this as a Murphy bash. I just want to know how much of

the

flight envelope has been explored before I end up a test pilot some day.
I suspected no spin test had been done by Murphy on foats. I don't know if

certified airplanes are required to be spin tested again when certified

for

floats, but it seems like a logical thing to do if a spin test is required

for certification on wheels (I don't know that it is required, but I

believe

it is). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if Murphy went to all

the trouble to do thorough spin testing for the Rebel on wheels, then why
not do it again on floats, knowing that the spin characteristics for
floatplanes are not good? The whole point of a spin test is to make sure

the

average pilot will be able to recover from a spin, so it doesn't make

sense

that just because you bolted floats to your airplane you will NEVER get

into

a spin. I'm sure not many people go out and do spins on floats just for

fun,

but the point is that accidental spins have caused many airplanes to

crash,

so it would be nice to know that if you ever found yourself in an

accidental

spin you would know that you could actually recover using normal

techniques.

Jesse

From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:33:14 -0500

I wondered how it would spin with floats, but so far have no had the
fortitude to try it on my Elite. There appears to be no tendency to drop

a

wing in the stall, which surprises me in view of the lack of wasjout.

Now,

if you want to be a real test pilot, let it wind up for six turns before
attempting recovery!

Al





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------






-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't think most floatplanes were even guaranteed to stay
structurally intact during a spin, let alone being guaranteed to
recover. I've always suspected that anyone who gets into an
"accidental" spin is not likely to be sharp enough to recover and also
have the altitude to do it.

Certification doesn't guarantee much anyway. Airframes get bent and
twisted a bit over the years. Instructors always said to pull the power
off in a spin. Guess what - should you manage to get into a flat spin in
a C150 (quite difficult actually) there is at least one that many years
ago would not recover unless you added power... Much fun watching the
world go around with a level flight attitude and no airspeed - until 3
or 4 turns go by with the rudder having no effect on recovery whatsoever.

Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Bob and everyone,
Please don't take this as a Murphy bash. I just want to know how much of the
flight envelope has been explored before I end up a test pilot some day.
I suspected no spin test had been done by Murphy on foats. I don't know if
certified airplanes are required to be spin tested again when certified for
floats, but it seems like a logical thing to do if a spin test is required
for certification on wheels (I don't know that it is required, but I believe
it is). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if Murphy went to all
the trouble to do thorough spin testing for the Rebel on wheels, then why
not do it again on floats, knowing that the spin characteristics for
floatplanes are not good? The whole point of a spin test is to make sure the
average pilot will be able to recover from a spin, so it doesn't make sense
that just because you bolted floats to your airplane you will NEVER get into
a spin. I'm sure not many people go out and do spins on floats just for fun,
but the point is that accidental spins have caused many airplanes to crash,
so it would be nice to know that if you ever found yourself in an accidental
spin you would know that you could actually recover using normal techniques.
Jesse

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Wow,
I seem to have annoyed some people. Sorry.
I obviously don't know much about the certification of airplanes, I just
wonder why Murphy did such a great job of spin testing on wheels but not
floats, if floats make spins worse. They do sell floats for their airplanes
after all. It sure won't stop me from putting floats on mine, I just wonder
about it.
Just so you don't think I'm a total neophyte, I have 7,000 hours in my
logbook. I am currently an airline captain, and I have taught aerobatics in
sailplanes and powered airplanes including many many spins, and Bob, I have
actually done lots of inverted spins in the Grob 103A. Lots of fun, but only
because you know it will recover.
Again, sorry to ruffle any feathers. It can't be wrong to want to know as
much as possible about this whole flying thing. That's why this list is
great.
Jesse

From: "George Coy" <george@gesoco.com>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: Rebel Float spin test?
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 14:06:13 -0500

I guess I can not let this question go unanswered. I may be a little
harsh,
but lets not forget that Murphy nor is anyone else required to do spin
testing in an EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. You are flying an EXPERIMENTAL
aircraft! If you want to know the spin characteristics with wheels, floats,
skis, doors removed canoes tied to the floats, etc. then it is up to you.
YOU are the MANUFACTURER of the aircraft. No two people are even going to
build the aircraft exactly alike. No two flights are going to be exactly
alight. The center of gravity location is crucial to spin recovery no
matter
the technique.
YOU ARE the test pilot!
The very fact that you are asking these questions may indicate that an
experimental aircraft may not be the right fit for your flying.
That said, if you are afraid of stalls or spins, then get lots of
instruction in them so you feel comfortable. Do it in an aircraft that is
certified for aerobatics. Get comfortable with the feel of the aircraft as
it enters a spin. Learn what a spin is and how to avoid them. Learn
different techniques for spin recovery. (all aircraft do NOT recover with
the same techniques).
The FAA today concentrates on spin avoidance rather than spin recovery.
They have even removed the spin recovery requirement from the Flight
Instructors test!

George Coy
President
Gesoco Industries Inc.
629 Airport Rd.
Swanton, VT 05488
TEL 802-868-5633
FAX 802-868-4465
Web Site www.gesoco.com
e-mail George@gesoco.com
Franklin County Airport (KFSO)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 12:26 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?


Thanks Bob and everyone,
Please don't take this as a Murphy bash. I just want to know how much of
the
flight envelope has been explored before I end up a test pilot some day.
I suspected no spin test had been done by Murphy on foats. I don't know if
certified airplanes are required to be spin tested again when certified for
floats, but it seems like a logical thing to do if a spin test is required
for certification on wheels (I don't know that it is required, but I
believe
it is). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that if Murphy went to all
the trouble to do thorough spin testing for the Rebel on wheels, then why
not do it again on floats, knowing that the spin characteristics for
floatplanes are not good? The whole point of a spin test is to make sure
the
average pilot will be able to recover from a spin, so it doesn't make sense
that just because you bolted floats to your airplane you will NEVER get
into
a spin. I'm sure not many people go out and do spins on floats just for
fun,
but the point is that accidental spins have caused many airplanes to crash,
so it would be nice to know that if you ever found yourself in an
accidental
spin you would know that you could actually recover using normal
techniques.
Jesse

From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:33:14 -0500

I wondered how it would spin with floats, but so far have no had the
fortitude to try it on my Elite. There appears to be no tendency to drop

a

wing in the stall, which surprises me in view of the lack of wasjout.

Now,

if you want to be a real test pilot, let it wind up for six turns before
attempting recovery!

Al





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------








-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

After I first installed my floats, I did a lot of stalls and some
turning stall tests. Not sure if they could be classified as true
insipient spins, but I didn't have any wing dropping or problems
getting out of the insipient spin. Of course, I didn't dare (and
never would either) put it into a full spin on floats. I do have
the dorsal fin on mine, so maybe that helps with recovery.

I can get a wing drop on mine, with power on stalls if I don't
have the rudder exactly in the right position (centered will give
a wing drop), but I think that is pretty normal in any airplane.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2005 2:42 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Float spin test?


I didn't think most floatplanes were even guaranteed to stay
structurally intact during a spin, let alone being
guaranteed to
recover. I've always suspected that anyone who gets into an
"accidental" spin is not likely to be sharp enough to
recover and also
have the altitude to do it.

Certification doesn't guarantee much anyway. Airframes
get bent and
twisted a bit over the years. Instructors always said
to pull the power
off in a spin. Guess what - should you manage to get
into a flat spin in
a C150 (quite difficult actually) there is at least
one that many years
ago would not recover unless you added power... Much
fun watching the
world go around with a level flight attitude and no
airspeed - until 3
or 4 turns go by with the rudder having no effect on
recovery whatsoever.

Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Bob and everyone,
Please don't take this as a Murphy bash. I just want

to know how much of the

flight envelope has been explored before I end up a

test pilot some day.

I suspected no spin test had been done by Murphy on

foats. I don't know if

certified airplanes are required to be spin tested

again when certified for

floats, but it seems like a logical thing to do if a

spin test is required

for certification on wheels (I don't know that it is

required, but I believe

it is). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that

if Murphy went to all

the trouble to do thorough spin testing for the Rebel

on wheels, then why

not do it again on floats, knowing that the spin

characteristics for

floatplanes are not good? The whole point of a spin

test is to make sure the

average pilot will be able to recover from a spin, so

it doesn't make sense

that just because you bolted floats to your airplane

you will NEVER get into

a spin. I'm sure not many people go out and do spins

on floats just for fun,

but the point is that accidental spins have caused

many airplanes to crash,

so it would be nice to know that if you ever found

yourself in an accidental

spin you would know that you could actually recover

using normal techniques.

Jesse

-------------------------------------------------------
----------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-------------------------------------------------------
----------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------