The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on the Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as per the manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and fitting right.

So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder horn was neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would make the workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the Titanic look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know where this is going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the rudder spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the the cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the cap and about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent as a tomb on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate any fix that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's into the hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap to redo the whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to the undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

brian

can you remove the rivets that are in the way and put back after the others
are installed, or

sometimes if you pull the rivet slowly with low air pressure and push really
hard on the rivet gun you can get the offending rivet in place the give it
one last hard pull with more air pressure to finish it off

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brian Breathnach
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 2:09 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Rebel Rudder

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on the
Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as per the
manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and fitting right.

So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder horn was
neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would make the
workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the Titanic
look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know where this is
going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the rudder
spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the the
cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of
interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the cap and
about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent as a tomb
on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate any fix
that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's into the
hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap to redo the
whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to the
undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

What I have done when absolutely backed into a corner on this issue is to carefully knock out the mandrel in a new rivet, shorten the rivet slightly, reinsert the mandrel and pul the shortened rivet. The caution of course, is that there must be adequate rivet barrel to head up properly and only minimal shortening is possible.

Another help would be to knock out the offending (set) rivet mandrel and gain a small amount of reach for the new rivet. If you were concerned about shear a section of mandrel could be reinserted with epoxy to fix it. I believe Darryl does not count on the mandrel when designing.

I don't really like to do either of the above but this does occur ocassionally and my sense is that disassembly creates more risk of strength compromise than the above. I would however consider carefully in high stress locations. As always, the risk of the decision is yours.
Ralph Baker

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

Brian,
I ran into the same problem, and was equally as pi$$ed off about the manual.
It is the first bit of education you receive that the manual is a piece of
junk. You will learn that pretty quick.
I hadn't pulled any rivets before I realized the interference problem. What
I did was to counter bore slightly the inside of the holes for the 2
offending rivets that go through horn and end plug, and used the shorter SS
rivets in those 2 locations. When pulled, the shop head is almost flush to
the inner surface of the plug and the opposing rivets from the side will
clear them. As I remember, this problem is caused by the the hole location
of the two side rivets that are located by the rudder (or elevator) skin.
With the remaining radialy spaced rivets you can locate them far enough away
from the end of the plug that there is no clearance problem. On the rest of
the control surfaces I changed those hole locations slightly. If you counter
bore the inside of those 2 holes, use a drill press and secure the end plug
well. The drill bit will grab and want to go all the way through. If you
have an actual counter bore bit, even better.
Jesse

From: Brian Breathnach <breathnach@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Rebel Rudder
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:08:55 -0800

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on the
Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as per
the manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and fitting
right.

So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder horn
was neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would make
the workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the
Titanic look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know
where this is going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the rudder
spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the the
cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of
interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the cap and
about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent as a
tomb on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate any fix
that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's into the
hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap to redo the
whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to the
undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

I was told by MAM that the airplane is designed with 10% extra rivets. So I would think it's alright to rig one once in the while like Ralph mentions.
Mike Betti
771E

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:27:39 -0500, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:

What I have done when absolutely backed into a corner on this issue is to carefully knock out the mandrel in a new rivet, shorten the rivet slightly, reinsert the mandrel and pul the shortened rivet. The caution of course, is that there must be adequate rivet barrel to head up properly and only minimal shortening is possible.

Another help would be to knock out the offending (set) rivet mandrel and gain a small amount of reach for the new rivet. If you were concerned about shear a section of mandrel could be reinserted with epoxy to fix it. I believe Darryl does not count on the mandrel when designing.

I don't really like to do either of the above but this does occur ocassionally and my sense is that disassembly creates more risk of strength compromise than the above. I would however consider carefully in high stress locations. As always, the risk of the decision is yours.
Ralph Baker

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

I know it's not exactly pretty, but it's not that visible on the bottom of
the rudder... drill out the offending rivets and install them backwards,
from the inside out.

Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Breathnach" <breathnach@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 10:08 PM
Subject: Rebel Rudder

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on the
Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as per
the manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and fitting
right.

So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder horn was
neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would make the
workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the
Titanic look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know
where this is going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the rudder
spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the the
cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of
interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the cap
and about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent as
a tomb on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate any
fix that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's
into the hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap to
redo the whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to the
undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

Not an option Mike. Needs to be smooth as it rotates above the hinge
bracket. In backwards would leave the "shop" heads working like a baseball
card in your spokes!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

I know it's not exactly pretty, but it's not that visible on the bottom of
the rudder... drill out the offending rivets and install them backwards,
from the inside out.

Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Breathnach" <breathnach@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 10:08 PM
Subject: Rebel Rudder

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on the
Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as per
the manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and fitting
right.

So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder horn

was

neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would make the
workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the
Titanic look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know
where this is going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the

rudder

spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the

the

cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of
interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the cap
and about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent

as

a tomb on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate any
fix that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's
into the hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap to
redo the whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to the
undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

OK, I was picturing it like the Moose rudder horn... wouldn't interfere with
the hinging on a Moose.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Not an option Mike. Needs to be smooth as it rotates above the hinge
bracket. In backwards would leave the "shop" heads working like a baseball
card in your spokes!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

I know it's not exactly pretty, but it's not that visible on the bottom
of
the rudder... drill out the offending rivets and install them backwards,
from the inside out.

Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Breathnach" <breathnach@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 10:08 PM
Subject: Rebel Rudder

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on the
Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as
per
the manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and
fitting
right.

So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder horn
was
neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would make
the
workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the
Titanic look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know
where this is going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the
rudder
spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the
the
cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of
interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the cap
and about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent
as
a tomb on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate any
fix that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's
into the hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap
to
redo the whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to the
undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

Rebel rudder horn goes right on the bottom similar to the Moose tailwheel
steering arm. This sits right on top of the rudder pivot. Only clearance
available is for one of my nylon pog to keep even the smooth rivet heads
from wearing into the pivot bracket.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

OK, I was picturing it like the Moose rudder horn... wouldn't interfere

with

the hinging on a Moose.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Not an option Mike. Needs to be smooth as it rotates above the hinge
bracket. In backwards would leave the "shop" heads working like a

baseball

card in your spokes!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

I know it's not exactly pretty, but it's not that visible on the bottom
of
the rudder... drill out the offending rivets and install them

backwards,

from the inside out.

Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Breathnach" <breathnach@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 10:08 PM
Subject: Rebel Rudder

the

horn

was

know

rudder

the

the

of

cap

silent

as

any

it's

the

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

Hi Mike,
Thank you for the prompt response.
Have established that the absence of a mandril in a rivet does not affect
the safety of the kit so the intent is to remove the mandril and that will
allow me to insert and pull the appropriate rivets. Being new to the build
experience I was/am intrigued by the low air pressure and hard push
technique you describe below. Will keep that in mind for sure.
thanx again Mike
Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <Michael.Jones@snclavalin.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:31 AM
Subject: RE: Rebel Rudder

brian

can you remove the rivets that are in the way and put back after the

others

are installed, or

sometimes if you pull the rivet slowly with low air pressure and push

really

hard on the rivet gun you can get the offending rivet in place the give it
one last hard pull with more air pressure to finish it off

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brian Breathnach
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 2:09 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Rebel Rudder

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on the
Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as per

the

manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and fitting

right.

So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder horn

was

neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would make the
workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the

Titanic

look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know where this

is

going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the rudder
spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the the
cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of
interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the cap

and

about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent as a

tomb

on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate any

fix

that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's into

the

hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap to redo the
whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to the
undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

Most of the mandrels "ping" right out of the stainless rivets when the
mandrel breaks anyhow.

Another trick is the old plastic mallet on the air riveter head as you
slowly pull the rivet...to drive the rivet into place as the shop head
forms.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Breathnach" <breathnach@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Hi Mike,
Thank you for the prompt response.
Have established that the absence of a mandril in a rivet does not affect
the safety of the kit so the intent is to remove the mandril and that will
allow me to insert and pull the appropriate rivets. Being new to the build
experience I was/am intrigued by the low air pressure and hard push
technique you describe below. Will keep that in mind for sure.
thanx again Mike
Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <Michael.Jones@snclavalin.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:31 AM
Subject: RE: Rebel Rudder

brian

can you remove the rivets that are in the way and put back after the
others
are installed, or

sometimes if you pull the rivet slowly with low air pressure and push
really
hard on the rivet gun you can get the offending rivet in place the give

it

one last hard pull with more air pressure to finish it off

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brian Breathnach
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 2:09 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Rebel Rudder

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on the
Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as per
the
manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and fitting
right.
So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder horn
was
neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would make the
workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the
Titanic
look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know where

this

is
going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the

rudder

spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the

the

cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of
interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the cap
and
about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent as a
tomb
on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate any
fix
that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's into
the
hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap to redo

the

whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to the
undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

Hi Ralph,

Your prompt response is much appreciated.

Have confirmed your thought on the absence of a rivet mandrel (para two
below) and I will likely go that way.

Thank you for the feedback

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:27 AM
Subject: rebel rudder

What I have done when absolutely backed into a corner on this issue is to

carefully knock out the mandrel in a new rivet, shorten the rivet slightly,
reinsert the mandrel and pul the shortened rivet. The caution of course, is
that there must be adequate rivet barrel to head up properly and only
minimal shortening is possible.

Another help would be to knock out the offending (set) rivet mandrel and

gain a small amount of reach for the new rivet. If you were concerned about
shear a section of mandrel could be reinserted with epoxy to fix it. I
believe Darryl does not count on the mandrel when designing.

I don't really like to do either of the above but this does occur

ocassionally and my sense is that disassembly creates more risk of strength
compromise than the above. I would however consider carefully in high
stress locations. As always, the risk of the decision is yours.

Ralph Baker

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

Hi Jesse,

Thanks for the feedback.

Im new to this building game so that will explain my curiosity about a
"counter bore." If you wouldnt mind Jesse could you provide a little more
explanation on the concept as a means of keeping me out of trouble when
building the elevators/fin.

Many thanks

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Jenks" <jessejenks@hotmail.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:33 AM
Subject: RE: Rebel Rudder

Brian,
I ran into the same problem, and was equally as pi$$ed off about the

manual.

It is the first bit of education you receive that the manual is a piece of
junk. You will learn that pretty quick.
I hadn't pulled any rivets before I realized the interference problem.

What

I did was to counter bore slightly the inside of the holes for the 2
offending rivets that go through horn and end plug, and used the shorter

SS

rivets in those 2 locations. When pulled, the shop head is almost flush to
the inner surface of the plug and the opposing rivets from the side will
clear them. As I remember, this problem is caused by the the hole location
of the two side rivets that are located by the rudder (or elevator) skin.
With the remaining radialy spaced rivets you can locate them far enough

away

from the end of the plug that there is no clearance problem. On the rest

of

the control surfaces I changed those hole locations slightly. If you

counter

bore the inside of those 2 holes, use a drill press and secure the end

plug

well. The drill bit will grab and want to go all the way through. If you
have an actual counter bore bit, even better.
Jesse

From: Brian Breathnach <breathnach@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Rebel Rudder
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:08:55 -0800

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on the
Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as per
the manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and fitting
right.

So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder horn
was neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would make
the workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the
Titanic look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know
where this is going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the

rudder

spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the

the

cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of
interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the cap

and

about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent as a
tomb on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate any

fix

that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's into

the

hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap to redo the
whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to the
undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:06 pm**

Thanks Mike--looks like that will be the route I will go
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: <mbetti@up.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: rebel rudder

I was told by MAM that the airplane is designed with 10% extra rivets. So

I would think it's alright to rig one once in the while like Ralph mentions.

Mike Betti
771E

On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 08:27:39 -0500, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:
What I have done when absolutely backed into a corner on this issue is to

carefully knock out the mandrel in a new rivet, shorten the rivet slightly,
reinsert the mandrel and pul the shortened rivet. The caution of course, is
that there must be adequate rivet barrel to head up properly and only
minimal shortening is possible.

Another help would be to knock out the offending (set) rivet mandrel and

gain a small amount of reach for the new rivet. If you were concerned about
shear a section of mandrel could be reinserted with epoxy to fix it. I
believe Darryl does not count on the mandrel when designing.

I don't really like to do either of the above but this does occur

ocassionally and my sense is that disassembly creates more risk of strength
compromise than the above. I would however consider carefully in high
stress locations. As always, the risk of the decision is yours.

Ralph Baker

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 2:07 pm**

Hi Wayne,

Thanx for the info.

Im new to building so that explains this question. Does "ping" mean that the
mandrel removes itself from the rivet leaving a hole right tru the body of
the rivet? Also if you could elaborate on the use of the "plastic mallet on
the air riveter head..." that would be great. Is the idea to actually whack
the riveter head during the process of pulling the rivet?

Thank you

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Most of the mandrels "ping" right out of the stainless rivets when the
mandrel breaks anyhow.

Another trick is the old plastic mallet on the air riveter head as you
slowly pull the rivet...to drive the rivet into place as the shop head
forms.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Breathnach" <breathnach@shaw.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Rudder

Hi Mike,
Thank you for the prompt response.
Have established that the absence of a mandril in a rivet does not

affect

the safety of the kit so the intent is to remove the mandril and that

will

allow me to insert and pull the appropriate rivets. Being new to the

build

experience I was/am intrigued by the low air pressure and hard push
technique you describe below. Will keep that in mind for sure.
thanx again Mike
Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Michael" <Michael.Jones@snclavalin.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:31 AM
Subject: RE: Rebel Rudder

brian

can you remove the rivets that are in the way and put back after the
others
are installed, or

sometimes if you pull the rivet slowly with low air pressure and push
really
hard on the rivet gun you can get the offending rivet in place the

give

it
one last hard pull with more air pressure to finish it off

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brian Breathnach
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 2:09 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Rebel Rudder

So, I very very carefully read through the section of the manual on

the

Rebel tail feathers as that is where the build was to start.

Then, I very very carefully measured and drilled the rudder parts as

per

the
manual and took great care to get the parts all lined up and fitting
right.
So far so good

Next came the rudder assembly as per the manual. Thus, the rudder

horn

was
neatly and properly riveted to the spar cap in a way that would make

the

workmanship of those who built the steel riveted side plates of the
Titanic
look like the work of infants building a Meccano set--you know where
this
is
going right?

Again all went well.

Next came my attempt to rivet the horn and spar cap assembly to the
rudder
spar.

Thats when I discovered that a couple of the rivets used to attach the
the
cap to the spar could not be inserted in place, and pulled, because of
interference from a couple of rivets used to attach the horn to the

cap

and
about which the manual offered no caution; indeed it was as silent as

a

tomb
on the subject.

Thats when I nearly had a ##!!0&%##@/!!!!!! bird

Has this happened to anyone else? if it has I would sure appreciate

any

fix
that was dreamed up. But somehow I just know in my bones that it's

into

the
hip pocket and out with the wallet to buy a new spar and cap to redo
the
whole 30 hour effort.

Right?

I thought so!

Sympathy, and expressions of shock grief and horror, may be sent to

the

undersigned.

Brian Breathnach
779R

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