The Murphy Builders Site

The Avex rivet strength is usually found in kN. The standard aluminum 1/8
Avex has a shear of .7kN which converts to 157 pounds force and a tensile of
1.0 kN = 224 pounds force. The cherry Q is nearly double in shear and 50%
more in tensile. The stainless Q is roughly triple.

Pounds force is the mass of one pound multiplied by acceleration due to
gravity.

My questions:
How does pounds force relate to PSI? Of course I know that PSI is pounds
force per square inch but how do you relate an avex of 157 pounds force to
an AD rivet given in PSI? Do you divide the 157 by the square bearing area
in inches of the rivet? Or is it apples and oranges? Force and Pressure?

The standard solid AD rivet has a published shear of 26,000 "PSI" and
tensile of 38,000 PSI.

There is always a lot of talk about MAM aircraft being designed for Avex and
if you use stronger you could cause problems, however MAM makes no changes
in rivet spacing and installs solid in all the same places as avex on fast
builds.

Ted you will notice in the sample pictures MAM has all solid on the parts
you are now installing so I doubt you could put "too strong" of a rivet in
there.

Scott

The Avex rivet strength is usually found in kN. The standard aluminum 1/8
Avex has a shear of .7kN which converts to 157 pounds force and a tensile

1.0 kN = 224 pounds force. The cherry Q is nearly double in shear and 50%
more in tensile. The stainless Q is roughly triple.

Pounds force is the mass of one pound multiplied by acceleration due to
gravity.

My questions:
How does pounds force relate to PSI? Of course I know that PSI is pounds
force per square inch but how do you relate an avex of 157 pounds force to
an AD rivet given in PSI? Do you divide the 157 by the square bearing area
in inches of the rivet? Or is it apples and oranges? Force and Pressure?

The standard solid AD rivet has a published shear of 26,000 "PSI" and
tensile of 38,000 PSI.

There is always a lot of talk about MAM aircraft being designed for Avex

if you use stronger you could cause problems, however MAM makes no changes
in rivet spacing and installs solid in all the same places as avex on fast
builds.

Ted you will notice in the sample pictures MAM has all solid on the parts
you are now installing so I doubt you could put "too strong" of a rivet in
there.

Scott

The Avex rivet strength is usually found in kN. The standard aluminum
1/8 Avex has a shear of .7kN which converts to 157 pounds force and a
tensile

1.0 kN = 224 pounds force. The cherry Q is nearly double in shear and
50% more in tensile. The stainless Q is roughly triple.

Pounds force is the mass of one pound multiplied by acceleration due to

gravity.

My questions:
How does pounds force relate to PSI? Of course I know that PSI is
pounds force per square inch but how do you relate an avex of 157
pounds force to an AD rivet given in PSI? Do you divide the 157 by the

square bearing area in inches of the rivet? Or is it apples and
oranges? Force and Pressure?

The standard solid AD rivet has a published shear of 26,000 "PSI" and
tensile of 38,000 PSI.

There is always a lot of talk about MAM aircraft being designed for
Avex

if you use stronger you could cause problems, however MAM makes no
changes in rivet spacing and installs solid in all the same places as
avex on fast builds.

Ted you will notice in the sample pictures MAM has all solid on the
parts you are now installing so I doubt you could put "too strong" of a

rivet in there.

Scott

Ted you will notice in the sample pictures MAM has all solid on the parts
you are now installing so I doubt you could put "too strong" of a rivet in
there.

Scott

The Avex rivet strength is usually found in kN. The standard aluminum
1/8 Avex has a shear of .7kN which converts to 157 pounds force and a
tensile

1.0 kN = 224 pounds force. The cherry Q is nearly double in shear and
50% more in tensile. The stainless Q is roughly triple.

Pounds force is the mass of one pound multiplied by acceleration due to

gravity.

My questions:
How does pounds force relate to PSI? Of course I know that PSI is
pounds force per square inch but how do you relate an avex of 157
pounds force to an AD rivet given in PSI? Do you divide the 157 by the

square bearing area in inches of the rivet? Or is it apples and
oranges? Force and Pressure?

The standard solid AD rivet has a published shear of 26,000 "PSI" and
tensile of 38,000 PSI.

There is always a lot of talk about MAM aircraft being designed for
Avex

if you use stronger you could cause problems, however MAM makes no
changes in rivet spacing and installs solid in all the same places as
avex on fast builds.

Ted you will notice in the sample pictures MAM has all solid on the
parts you are now installing so I doubt you could put "too strong" of a

rivet in there.

Scott

Thanks Ken,
That makes sense. So the standard 1410 Avex is about 12,800 PSI (157 lbs). I
guess it surprises me that the Cherry BSPQ (359 pounds shear) is stronger
than an AD Solid. I guess the variable of not getting the stem length right
is the drawback with the Cherry Q.

Someone who knows should answer, but isn't the Q the "poor man's" Cherrymax
because the puller for Cherrymax is expensive, as are the rivets??

Then like you mentioned easier to drill out a Q than a Max??

Yes AFAIK that is it exactly ;)
Ken

Scott Aldrich wrote:

Someone who knows should answer, but isn't the Q the "poor man's"

because the puller for Cherrymax is expensive, as are the rivets??

Then like you mentioned easier to drill out a Q than a Max??

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I had an AME that kept putting Cherrymax's in the firewall to fus junction
in my '58 C182 and the heads sheared off them pretty quickly.

To the original question for attaching the Moose stinger bulkhead...I
wouldn't be mounting with anything stronger than you had there. If they
didn't "pant" or shear...why upgrade to something that will be a nightmare
to remove if your new design does a "MAM" as well.

You need ear muffs around those A&P/AME rivet "purists"!! What would you
prefer...sheared avex and no skin damage or everything F'd???? I've had many
a damaged airplane that sheared rivets with no skin damage.... requiring
nothing but replacement of rivets in particular spots. Solids would have
caused major skin/bulkhead damage to boot, just to add to the misery and
customers bill.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken"
To:
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Avex strength vs. solid rivet was RE: Rivet types

Yes AFAIK that is it exactly ;)
Ken

Scott Aldrich wrote:

Someone who knows should answer, but isn't the Q the "poor man's"

Cherrymax

because the puller for Cherrymax is expensive, as are the rivets??

Then like you mentioned easier to drill out a Q than a Max??

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I had an AME that kept putting Cherrymax's in the firewall to fus junction
in my '58 C182 and the heads sheared off them pretty quickly.

To the original question for attaching the Moose stinger bulkhead...I
wouldn't be mounting with anything stronger than you had there. If they
didn't "pant" or shear...why upgrade to something that will be a nightmare
to remove if your new design does a "MAM" as well.

You need ear muffs around those A&P/AME rivet "purists"!! What would you
prefer...sheared avex and no skin damage or everything F'd???? I've had
many
a damaged airplane that sheared rivets with no skin damage.... requiring
nothing but replacement of rivets in particular spots. Solids would have
caused major skin/bulkhead damage to boot, just to add to the misery and
customers bill.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Avex strength vs. solid rivet was RE: Rivet types

Yes AFAIK that is it exactly ;)
Ken

Scott Aldrich wrote:

Someone who knows should answer, but isn't the Q the "poor man's"

Cherrymax

because the puller for Cherrymax is expensive, as are the rivets??

Then like you mentioned easier to drill out a Q than a Max??

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As a newcomer to the site a glossary to explain the more obscure terms

IMHO, AFAIK etc. would be very much appreciated.
Great discussion guys.
Thanx
Brian
779R
PS Apologies to all for the earlier accidental "Request Read Receipts" I'm

computer klutz and still finding my way around this here keyboard




----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: Avex strength vs. solid rivet was RE: Rivet types

I had an AME that kept putting Cherrymax's in the firewall to fus

in my '58 C182 and the heads sheared off them pretty quickly.

To the original question for attaching the Moose stinger bulkhead...I
wouldn't be mounting with anything stronger than you had there. If they
didn't "pant" or shear...why upgrade to something that will be a

to remove if your new design does a "MAM" as well.

You need ear muffs around those A&P/AME rivet "purists"!! What would you
prefer...sheared avex and no skin damage or everything F'd???? I've had
many
a damaged airplane that sheared rivets with no skin damage.... requiring
nothing but replacement of rivets in particular spots. Solids would have
caused major skin/bulkhead damage to boot, just to add to the misery and
customers bill.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Avex strength vs. solid rivet was RE: Rivet types

Yes AFAIK that is it exactly ;)
Ken

Scott Aldrich wrote:

Cherrymax

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I had an AME that kept putting Cherrymax's in the firewall to fus

in my '58 C182 and the heads sheared off them pretty quickly.

To the original question for attaching the Moose stinger bulkhead...I
wouldn't be mounting with anything stronger than you had there. If

didn't "pant" or shear...why upgrade to something that will be a

to remove if your new design does a "MAM" as well.

You need ear muffs around those A&P/AME rivet "purists"!! What would

prefer...sheared avex and no skin damage or everything F'd???? I've

many
a damaged airplane that sheared rivets with no skin damage....

nothing but replacement of rivets in particular spots. Solids would

caused major skin/bulkhead damage to boot, just to add to the misery

customers bill.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Avex strength vs. solid rivet was RE: Rivet types

Yes AFAIK that is it exactly ;)
Ken

Scott Aldrich wrote:

Someone who knows should answer, but isn't the Q the "poor man's"

Cherrymax

because the puller for Cherrymax is expensive, as are the rivets??

Then like you mentioned easier to drill out a Q than a Max??

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No problem (NP) Brian! Befor I googled (searched the internet) I had
no idea just how many acronbymns there were!

Fred

From :
http://netforbeginners.about.com/cs/net ... ations.htm
Internet Abbreviations & Acronyms: Email and Chat Shorthand!

BRB - be right back
BTW - by the way
TTYL - talk to you later
BFN - bye for now
TTFN - ta-ta for now
CYA - see ya (or it could also be: cover your a*s)
CUL8R - see you later
IMHO - in my humble opinion
IMNSHO - in my not so humble opinion
LOL - laughing out loud
ROTFL - rolling on the floor laughing
ROTFLMAO - rolling on the floor laughing my a*s off
RTM - read the manual
GG - good game
THX - thanks
TX - thanks
PLZ - please
ASL - age / sex / location?
IRL - in real life
the message is winking
JK Just Kidding
? I have a question
! I have a comment
A-OLs Administrators On-Line
AAMOF As A Matter Of Fact
AFAIK As Far As I Know
AFK Away From the Keyboard
AISI As I See It
ASAP As Soon As Possible ASL Age, sex, location
ATSL Along The Same Line
AWTTW Are We Having Fun Yet?
AYOR At Your Own Risk
B4N Bye For Now
BAK Back At Keyboard
BBFN Bye Bye For Now
BBL Be Back Later
BF Boy Friend
BFN Bye For Now
BIF Before I Forget
BION Believe it or not
BOT Back On Topic
BRB Be Right Back
BTAIM Be That As It May
BTHOM Beats The Hell Outta Me
BTOBD Be There Or Be Dead
BTW By The Way
BWL Bursting With Laughter
BYKT But You Knew That
BYOB Bring Your Own Bottle
CMIIW Correct Me If I'm Wrong
CU See You
CU2 See You, Too
CUL See you later
CUL8R See You Later
CWYL Chat With You Later
DIIK Damned If I Know.
DIKU? Do I Know You?
DILLIGAD Do I Look Like I Give A Darnn?.
DIY Do It Yourself
DK Don't Know
F2F Face To Face
FCFS First Come, First Served
FISH First In, Still Here
FITB Fill In The Blank
FOAD F*** off and die
FOAF Friend Of A Friend
FS For Sale
FTASB Faster Than A Speeding Bullet
F2F Face to Face
FTF Face To Face
FTL Faster Than Light
FUBAR Fouled Up Beyond All Repair
FUBB Fouled Up Beyond Belief.
FUD Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt
FURTB Full Up Ready To Burst
FWIW For What It's Worth
FYA For Your Amusement
FYI For Your Information
G Grin, or Giggle
G2G Got to Go
GA Go Ahead
GAL Get A Life
GD&R Grinning, Ducking and Running
GF Girl Friend.
GFN Gone For Now.
GIWIST Gee, I Wish I'd Said That
GLGH Good Luck and Good Hunting
GMTA Great Minds Think Alike
GOWI Get On With It
GTG Got To Go
GTSY Great To See You
H&K Hugs and Kisses
HAK Hugs And Kisses
IAC In Any Case
IAE In Any Event
IANAL I Am Not A Lawyer (but) A disclaimer which is usually followed by
a legal opinion
IAW In Accordance With
IBTD I Beg To Differ
IC I See
IDK I Don't Know
IIWM If It Were Me
IJWTK I Just Want To Know
IJWTS I Just Want To Say
IKWUM I Know What You Mean
IMA I Might Add
IME In My Experience
IMHO In My Humble Opinion
IMNSHO In My Not So Humble Opinion
IMO In My Opinion
IMPOV In My Point Of View
INPO In No Particular Order
IOW In Other Words
IRL In Real Life
ISS I'm So Sure
ISSYGTI I'm So Sure You Get The Idea!
ISWYM I See What You Mean
ITFA In The Final Analysis
ITSFWI If The Shoe Fits Wear It.
IYSWIM If You See What I Mean
JAM Just A Minute
JAS Just A Second
JFI Just For Information
JIC Just In Case
JMO Just My Opinion
JTLYK Just To Let You Know
k Okay
KISS Keep It Simple, Stupid
KIT Keep In Touch
KMA Kiss My A**
KWIM Know What I Mean?
KYFC Keep Your Fingers Crossed
L Laugh
L8R Later
LABATYD or LAB&TYD Life's A B**ch And Then You Die
LJBF Let's Just Be Friends
LLTA Lots and Lots of Thunderous Applause
LMAO Laughing My A** Off
LMHO Laughing My Head Off
LOL Laughing Out Loud
LSHMBH Laughing So Hard My Belly Hurts.
LTHTT Laughing Too Hard To Type
LTNS Long Time No See
LTNT Long Time, No Type
LTS Laughing to Self
LY Love You
MEGO My Eyes Glaze Over
MLA Multiple Letter Acronym
MOF Matter Of Fact
MOSS Member Of Same Sex
MOTAS Member Of The Appropriate Sex
MOTD Message of the day
MOTOS Member Of The Opposite Sex
MOTSS Member Of The Same Sex
MTFBWY May The Force Be With You
MYOB Mind Your Own Business
NAVY Never Again Voluneer Yourself.
OAUS On An Unrelated Subject
OB Obligatory
OBO Or Best Offer
OBTW Oh, By The Way
OIC Oh, I See
OMG Oh My God
ONNA Oh No, Not Again
ONNTA Oh No, Not This Again
OO Over and Out (end of communication)
OOTC Obligatory On-Topic Comment
OTF On the Floor (laughing)
OTFL On the Floor Laughing
OTL Out To Lunch
OTOH On The Other Hand
OTOOH On The Other Other Hand
OTT Over The Top
OTTH On The Third Hand
OTTOMH Off The Top Of My Head
PABG Packing a Big Gun
PCMCIA People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms
PD Public Domain
PDS Please Don't Shout.
PITA Pain In The A**
PMBI Pardon My Butting In
PMF Pardon My French or Pure Freaking Magic.
PMFBI Pardon Me For Butting In
PMFJI Pardon Me For Jumping In
PMIGBOM Put Mind In Gear, Before Opening Mouth
PMJI Pardon My Jumping In
PNCAH Please, No Cursing Allowed Here
POSSLQ Person Of Opposite Sex Sharing Living Quarters
PPL People
PTMM Please Tell Me More
R U THERE? Are you there?
RAEBNC Read And Enjoyed, But No Comment
re Hello again or In Regard To
RHIP Rank Has Its Privileges
RL Real Life
RLCO Real Life Conference
ROFL Rolling On Floor Laughing
ROFLAS Rolling On Floor Laughing And Screaming
ROFLMAO Roll On Floor Laughing My A** Off
ROTF Rolling On The Floor
ROTFL Rolling On The Floor Laughing
ROTFLMAOTID Rolling On The Floor Laughing My A** Off Till I Die
ROTFLOL Rolling On The Floor Laughing Out Loud
ROTFLOLAPMP Rolling On The Floor Laughing Out Loud And Peeing My Pants
ROTFLTIC Rolling On The Floor Laughing Till I Cry
RRQ Return Receipt Request
RSN Real Soon Now
RSVP Respondez S'il Vous Plait - please reply
RTBM Read The Bloody Manual
RTFAQ Read The Frequently Asked Questions
RTFF Read The Freaking FAQ
RTFM Read The F------ Manual
RTM Read The Manual
RTWFQ Read The Whole Friggin' Question
RYFM Read Your Friendly Manual
RYS Read Your Screen
S Smile
SAPFU Surpassing All Previous Foul Ups
SCNR Sorry, Could Not Resist
SEC Wait a second
SFLA Stupid Four Letter Acronym
SICS Sitting In Chair Snickering
SLM See Last Mail
SMOP Small Matter of Programming
SNAFU Situation Normal: All Fouled Up
SO Significant Other
SOL SH** Out Of Luck
SOS Same Old Stuff or Help!
SOW Speaking Of Which
SWIM See What I Mean?
TAFN That's All For Now
TANJ There Ain't No Justice
TANSTAAFL There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
TARFU Things Are Really Fouled Up
TBYB Try Before You Buy
TDM Too Darn Many
TFS Three Finger Salute (Ctl-Alt-Del).
TFTHAOT Thanks For The Help Ahead Of Time
THX Thanks
TIA Thanks In Advance
TIC Tongue In Cheek
TINWIS That Is Not What I Said
TNSTAAFL There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
TNTL Trying Not To Laugh
TNX Thanks
TNXE6 Thanks A Million
TOBAL There Oughta Be A Law.
TOBG This Oughta Be Good.
TOY Thinking Of You.
TPTB The Powers That Be
TRDMC Tears Running Down My Cheeks.
TSR Totally Stupid Rules.
TTBOMK To The Best Of My Knowledge
TTFN Ta Ta For Now
TTYL Talk To You Later
TTYT Talk To You Tomorrow.
TYCLO Turn Your CAPS LOCK Off
TYVM Thank You Very Much
UOK Are You OK?
WAEF When All Else Fails
WB Welcome Back
WDYMBT What Do You Mean By That?.
WDYT What Do You Think?
WE Whatever
WIBAMU Well, I'll Be A Monkey's Uncle
WIBNI Wouldn't It Be Nice If
WMMOWS Wash My Mouth Out With Soap
WNOHGB Where No One Has Gone Before
WOA Work Of Art
WOTAM Waste Of Time And Money
WRT With Regard To, or With Respect To
WT Without Thinking
WTB Want To Buy
WTF What The F***?
WTG Way To Go!
WTGP Want To Go Private?
WTH What the hell?
WTTM Without Thinking Too Much.
WYGISWYPF What You Get Is What You Pay For
XOXOXO Kisses and hugs
YABA Yet Another Bloody Acronym
YAOTM Yet Another Off-Topic Message
YAUN Yet Another Unix Nerd
YGLT You're Gonna Love This
YGTI You Get The Idea?
YGWYPF You Get What You Pay For
YIU Yes, I Understand
YIWGP Yes, I Will Go Private
YKYARW You Know You're A Redneck When
YMMV Your Mileage May Vary (or your experience could be different)






-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Brian Breathnach
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 7:44 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Avex strength vs. solid rivet was RE: Rivet types

As a newcomer to the site a glossary to explain the more obscure terms
like IMHO, AFAIK etc. would be very much appreciated.
Great discussion guys.
Thanx
Brian
779R
PS Apologies to all for the earlier accidental "Request Read Receipts"
I'm a computer klutz and still finding my way around this here keyboard




----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: Avex strength vs. solid rivet was RE: Rivet types

I had an AME that kept putting Cherrymax's in the firewall to fus

junction

in my '58 C182 and the heads sheared off them pretty quickly.

To the original question for attaching the Moose stinger bulkhead...I
wouldn't be mounting with anything stronger than you had there. If

they

didn't "pant" or shear...why upgrade to something that will be a

nightmare

to remove if your new design does a "MAM" as well.

You need ear muffs around those A&P/AME rivet "purists"!! What would

you

prefer...sheared avex and no skin damage or everything F'd???? I've

had

many
a damaged airplane that sheared rivets with no skin damage....

requiring

nothing but replacement of rivets in particular spots. Solids would

have

caused major skin/bulkhead damage to boot, just to add to the misery

and

customers bill.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Avex strength vs. solid rivet was RE: Rivet types

Yes AFAIK that is it exactly ;)
Ken

Scott Aldrich wrote:

Cherrymax

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