The Murphy Builders Site

Something weird happened in the shop last night. As part of my one-off cowl
design I have a tubular structure in two pieces that is joined by slipping a
smaller tube inside a bigger one and then riveting like you do in some other
parts of the airplane. I had some 1 X 0.058 tube and some smaller stuff for
the joint but I need more of the 1 X 0.058. Despite the older and newer 1 X
0.058 being labled exactly the same my smaller tube went easily into the
older stuff that I got from MAM about 7 years ago but was really tight in
the new stuff from Aircraft Spruce. So I sanded the smaller stuff on my
belt sander to slide in easier. Then I slipped the sanded tubes into the 1
X 0.058 tubes and started to position them. Well, they became stuck.
REALLY stuck. I cannot budge them and they are not in the right spot. I
even tried heating the assembly and then applied a wet towel I froze in the
freezer to the smaller tube to see if physics would help. No luck. What do
you suppose has happened? Any ideas about how to get those tubes out?
(It's always something!)



Mike

044SR





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You probably won't get them apart they gaulded fast to each other (excuse my
spelling) it happened to me several times before.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kimball" <mkimball@gci.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 3:49 PM
Subject: Chinese finger puzzle?

Something weird happened in the shop last night. As part of my one-off
cowl
design I have a tubular structure in two pieces that is joined by slipping
a
smaller tube inside a bigger one and then riveting like you do in some
other
parts of the airplane. I had some 1 X 0.058 tube and some smaller stuff
for
the joint but I need more of the 1 X 0.058. Despite the older and newer 1
X
0.058 being labled exactly the same my smaller tube went easily into the
older stuff that I got from MAM about 7 years ago but was really tight in
the new stuff from Aircraft Spruce. So I sanded the smaller stuff on my
belt sander to slide in easier. Then I slipped the sanded tubes into the
1
X 0.058 tubes and started to position them. Well, they became stuck.
REALLY stuck. I cannot budge them and they are not in the right spot. I
even tried heating the assembly and then applied a wet towel I froze in
the
freezer to the smaller tube to see if physics would help. No luck. What
do
you suppose has happened? Any ideas about how to get those tubes out?
(It's always something!)



Mike

044SR





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Learn something new every day. I found similar problems on the web with
telescoping antenna masts and stuff like that. Apparently, I increased the
chance of galling by roughing up the surface of the inner tube in my attempt
to decrease the OD. Some people report some luck in getting them apart with
the use of penetrating oil, heat, and a strap wrench. A propane torch is
mentioned for heat. I was only using a heat gun. Maybe I do need more
heat. I spent hours bending the outer tube to the right shape and don't
want to damage it. I'll have to be very careful.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Fultz
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:29 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Chinese finger puzzle?

You probably won't get them apart they gaulded fast to each other (excuse my

spelling) it happened to me several times before.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kimball" <mkimball@gci.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 3:49 PM
Subject: Chinese finger puzzle?

Something weird happened in the shop last night. As part of my one-off
cowl
design I have a tubular structure in two pieces that is joined by slipping

a
smaller tube inside a bigger one and then riveting like you do in some
other
parts of the airplane. I had some 1 X 0.058 tube and some smaller stuff
for
the joint but I need more of the 1 X 0.058. Despite the older and newer 1

X
0.058 being labled exactly the same my smaller tube went easily into the
older stuff that I got from MAM about 7 years ago but was really tight in
the new stuff from Aircraft Spruce. So I sanded the smaller stuff on my
belt sander to slide in easier. Then I slipped the sanded tubes into the
1
X 0.058 tubes and started to position them. Well, they became stuck.
REALLY stuck. I cannot budge them and they are not in the right spot. I
even tried heating the assembly and then applied a wet towel I froze in
the
freezer to the smaller tube to see if physics would help. No luck. What
do
you suppose has happened? Any ideas about how to get those tubes out?
(It's always something!)



Mike

044SR





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If you heat it very much with a torch you may want to assume it is now
soft un-heat treated aluminum ;(
If you really really (you get the idea) want if off you could try
running a little water through the inner tube while heating the outer.
Perhaps fasten a garden hose to it? As you know it's the temperature
differential that you need. I'd guess it is either going to fall off
fairly easilly or get galled on more tightly when it moves.
Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:

Learn something new every day. I found similar problems on the web with
telescoping antenna masts and stuff like that. Apparently, I increased the
chance of galling by roughing up the surface of the inner tube in my attempt
to decrease the OD. Some people report some luck in getting them apart with
the use of penetrating oil, heat, and a strap wrench. A propane torch is
mentioned for heat. I was only using a heat gun. Maybe I do need more
heat. I spent hours bending the outer tube to the right shape and don't
want to damage it. I'll have to be very careful.

Mike

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Yeah, I wondered about changing the properties of the aluminum with too much
heat. What this is is a tube that matches the firewall shape, but a bit
more narrow. I will run four straight structures to the top, bottom, left,
and right sides of this piece from the firewall. This will be the beginning
of my cowl and is based on the four door cowl design. Normally, with the
four door cowl for the Rebel the four structures run from the firewall to
the nose cowl. My nose cowl will have to be custom made from fiberglass and
I thought it would be easier to make it last. The firewall shaped piece is
in two halves, upper and lower. One of the two joining tubes is where it's
supposed to be. Three inches in with three inches sticking out to go in the
other piece. The other tube is only in about an inch with 5 inches sticking
out. Given that the tube will ultimately be attached at numerous points
from the doors and the four structures I think I will just use the joining
tubes as is. It doesn't have to be really strong. It just needs to support
aerodynamic loads and an odd thing here and there like a remote oil filter.
I'm going to sand the remaining joining tubes with fine grit sandpaper so
they're not so rough and then use a lubricant when I push them into the
other half of my firewall shaped tube. I'll probably cut the long bit down
to three inches as originally planned. I'll put two rivets on one side of
the 1-inch bit and another two rivets on the other side. The way it's
galled it probably doesn't even need rivets! :-) As always, thanks to
everyone for your help.

Mike
044SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 1:54 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Chinese finger puzzle?

If you heat it very much with a torch you may want to assume it is now
soft un-heat treated aluminum ;(
If you really really (you get the idea) want if off you could try
running a little water through the inner tube while heating the outer.
Perhaps fasten a garden hose to it? As you know it's the temperature
differential that you need. I'd guess it is either going to fall off
fairly easilly or get galled on more tightly when it moves.
Ken

Mike Kimball wrote:

Learn something new every day. I found similar problems on the web with
telescoping antenna masts and stuff like that. Apparently, I increased the
chance of galling by roughing up the surface of the inner tube in my

attempt

to decrease the OD. Some people report some luck in getting them apart

with

the use of penetrating oil, heat, and a strap wrench. A propane torch is
mentioned for heat. I was only using a heat gun. Maybe I do need more
heat. I spent hours bending the outer tube to the right shape and don't
want to damage it. I'll have to be very careful.

Mike

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Hi Mike,

I used to manufacture spiral stair kits. The treads had a pipe sleeve welded to them that slid down over a center pole. We learned when building aluminum stairs to be veeery careful. I would even take a piece of aliumunim center pole pipe and then go around to different vendors to see if the pipe would fit inside the tubing that we used for sleeves. Even then, during the assembly, everything had to be absolutely clean. The slightest contamination would start to score the aluminum, and increased force only made it worse. There were stairs we never could take apart for shipping.

Since its the outer sleeve you want to save, I suggest you cut off the inner sleeve so it only sticks out about a 1/4" (6mm, for those of you up north). Then take a hacksaw blade and cut a longitudinal slot in the remainder of the inner piece. You should then be able to withdraw that piece.

We were never successful in using heat or any lubricants to separate two seized pieces of aluminum.

Ted Hauri 577E



-------------- Original message from Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>: --------------

Learn something new every day. I found similar problems on the web with
telescoping antenna masts and stuff like that. Apparently, I increased the
chance of galling by roughing up the surface of the inner tube in my attempt
to decrease the OD. Some people report some luck in getting them apart with
the use of penetrating oil, heat, and a strap wrench. A propane torch is
mentioned for heat. I was only using a heat gun. Maybe I do need more
heat. I spent hours bending the outer tube to the right shape and don't
want to damage it. I'll have to be very careful.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dale
Fultz
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:29 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Chinese finger puzzle?

You probably won't get them apart they gaulded fast to each other (excuse my

spelling) it happened to me several times before.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kimball"
To:
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 3:49 PM
Subject: Chinese finger puzzle?

Something weird happened in the shop last night. As part of my one-off
cowl
design I have a tubular structure in two pieces that is joined by slipping

a
smaller tube inside a bigger one and then riveting like you do in some
other
parts of the airplane. I had some 1 X 0.058 tube and some smaller stuff
for
the joint but I need more of the 1 X 0.058. Despite the older and newer 1

X
0.058 being labled exactly the same my smaller tube went easily into the
older stuff that I got from MAM about 7 years ago but was really tight in
the new stuff from Aircraft Spruce. So I sanded the smaller stuff on my
belt sander to slide in easier. Then I slipped the sanded tubes into the
1
X 0.058 tubes and started to position them. Well, they became stuck.
REALLY stuck. I cannot budge them and they are not in the right spot. I
even tried heating the assembly and then applied a wet towel I froze in
the
freezer to the smaller tube to see if physics would help. No luck. What
do
you suppose has happened? Any ideas about how to get those tubes out?
(It's always something!)



Mike

044SR





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Yeah, I thought about cutting the stuck piece out. Maybe I'll give it a
shot. Was lubricant an aid to assembling pieces?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Hauri
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 5:44 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Chinese finger puzzle?

Hi Mike,

I used to manufacture spiral stair kits. The treads had a pipe sleeve welded
to them that slid down over a center pole. We learned when building aluminum
stairs to be veeery careful. I would even take a piece of aliumunim center
pole pipe and then go around to different vendors to see if the pipe would
fit inside the tubing that we used for sleeves. Even then, during the
assembly, everything had to be absolutely clean. The slightest contamination
would start to score the aluminum, and increased force only made it worse.
There were stairs we never could take apart for shipping.

Since its the outer sleeve you want to save, I suggest you cut off the inner
sleeve so it only sticks out about a 1/4" (6mm, for those of you up north).
Then take a hacksaw blade and cut a longitudinal slot in the remainder of
the inner piece. You should then be able to withdraw that piece.

We were never successful in using heat or any lubricants to separate two
seized pieces of aluminum.

Ted Hauri 577E



-------------- Original message from Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>:
--------------

Learn something new every day. I found similar problems on the web with
telescoping antenna masts and stuff like that. Apparently, I increased the

chance of galling by roughing up the surface of the inner tube in my

attempt

to decrease the OD. Some people report some luck in getting them apart

with

the use of penetrating oil, heat, and a strap wrench. A propane torch is
mentioned for heat. I was only using a heat gun. Maybe I do need more
heat. I spent hours bending the outer tube to the right shape and don't
want to damage it. I'll have to be very careful.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dale

Fultz
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:29 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Chinese finger puzzle?

You probably won't get them apart they gaulded fast to each other (excuse

my

spelling) it happened to me several times before.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kimball"
To:
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 3:49 PM
Subject: Chinese finger puzzle?

Something weird happened in the shop last night. As part of my one-off
cowl
design I have a tubular structure in two pieces that is joined by

slipping

a
smaller tube inside a bigger one and then riveting like you do in some
other
parts of the airplane. I had some 1 X 0.058 tube and some smaller stuff
for
the joint but I need more of the 1 X 0.058. Despite the older and newer

1

X
0.058 being labled exactly the same my smaller tube went easily into the

older stuff that I got from MAM about 7 years ago but was really tight

in

the new stuff from Aircraft Spruce. So I sanded the smaller stuff on my
belt sander to slide in easier. Then I slipped the sanded tubes into the

1
X 0.058 tubes and started to position them. Well, they became stuck.
REALLY stuck. I cannot budge them and they are not in the right spot. I
even tried heating the assembly and then applied a wet towel I froze in
the
freezer to the smaller tube to see if physics would help. No luck. What
do
you suppose has happened? Any ideas about how to get those tubes out?
(It's always something!)



Mike

044SR





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I was always loathe to use lubricant, as I feared it would eventually seep out after assembly and look bad, and then the customer would have to wipe it down once a week. When you manufacture kits you try to make something that goes together with a minimum of fuss if you follow the good instructions, right? Besides, lubricant wouldn't have helped. Once you get that burr going between two pieces of aluminum it's all over.
Ted Hauri 577E-------------- Original message from Mike Kimball <mkimball@gci.net>: --------------

Yeah, I thought about cutting the stuck piece out. Maybe I'll give it a
shot. Was lubricant an aid to assembling pieces?

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Hauri
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 5:44 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Chinese finger puzzle?

Hi Mike,

I used to manufacture spiral stair kits. The treads had a pipe sleeve welded
to them that slid down over a center pole. We learned when building aluminum
stairs to be veeery careful. I would even take a piece of aliumunim center
pole pipe and then go around to different vendors to see if the pipe would
fit inside the tubing that we used for sleeves. Even then, during the
assembly, everything had to be absolutely clean. The slightest contamination
would start to score the aluminum, and increased force only made it worse.
There were stairs we never could take apart for shipping.

Since its the outer sleeve you want to save, I suggest you cut off the inner
sleeve so it only sticks out about a 1/4" (6mm, for those of you up north).
Then take a hacksaw blade and cut a longitudinal slot in the remainder of
the inner piece. You should then be able to withdraw that piece.

We were never successful in using heat or any lubricants to separate two
seized pieces of aluminum.

Ted Hauri 577E



-------------- Original message from Mike Kimball :
--------------

Learn something new every day. I found similar problems on the web with
telescoping antenna masts and stuff like that. Apparently, I increased the

chance of galling by roughing up the surface of the inner tube in my

attempt

to decrease the OD. Some people report some luck in getting them apart

with

the use of penetrating oil, heat, and a strap wrench. A propane torch is
mentioned for heat. I was only using a heat gun. Maybe I do need more
heat. I spent hours bending the outer tube to the right shape and don't
want to damage it. I'll have to be very careful.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Dale

Fultz
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 12:29 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Chinese finger puzzle?

You probably won't get them apart they gaulded fast to each other (excuse

my

spelling) it happened to me several times before.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kimball"
To:
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 3:49 PM
Subject: Chinese finger puzzle?

Something weird happened in the shop last night. As part of my one-off
cowl
design I have a tubular structure in two pieces that is joined by

slipping

a
smaller tube inside a bigger one and then riveting like you do in some
other
parts of the airplane. I had some 1 X 0.058 tube and some smaller stuff
for
the joint but I need more of the 1 X 0.058. Despite the older and newer

1

X
0.058 being labled exactly the same my smaller tube went easily into the

older stuff that I got from MAM about 7 years ago but was really tight

in

the new stuff from Aircraft Spruce. So I sanded the smaller stuff on my
belt sander to slide in easier. Then I slipped the sanded tubes into the

1
X 0.058 tubes and started to position them. Well, they became stuck.
REALLY stuck. I cannot budge them and they are not in the right spot. I
even tried heating the assembly and then applied a wet towel I froze in
the
freezer to the smaller tube to see if physics would help. No luck. What
do
you suppose has happened? Any ideas about how to get those tubes out?
(It's always something!)



Mike

044SR





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