Rebel /Elite landing gear

[Bill Wagner]

I'm the guy in Calgary who was planning to build a Moose. When I met
with Darryl in July, he suggested that, since I haven't any flying
experience, I should either (a) get a smaller certified tailwheel
aircraft to get proficient on, or (b) build something smaller before
tackling something like the Moose. I'm cool with that advice - I don't
want to bite off more than I can chew, and my wife & I don't have kids
yet (though this will happen sooner or later...).

Option (a) costs a lot more than (b), and at age 34, I'm still young
enough that there's time to do both. So I'm weighing the pros & cons of
the Rebel, the Elite, and, to my own surprise, the RV-9 taildragger,
which is supposed to be really easy to fly.

However, I hear the RV just isn't a soft field plane, and frankly,
that's where I want to end up, eventually. There are too many good
fishing holes out in the backcountry, and not all of them have an
airstrip located conveniently nearby.

Plus the stall speed of the Rebel is slightly better. Useful load is
better. You can put the O-360 on the Elite. Floats are an option that
I'd like to hang on to, so Murphy wins that test, too.

On the other hand, the RV seems to be a "one-stop shopping" experience
(the kit is really complete, and by all accounts very easy to put
together), and comes in about, oh, I would guess $10,000 cheaper than
the Elite if one is building a basic day-VFR plane. And it's hard to
argue with a 180mph cruising speed if one is flying in the Rocky
Mountains. I know, I know: apples to oranges.

One thing I can't figure out - why do Rebels seem to outnumber Elites 10
to one? Is it because the Elite is a newer design? Are Rebels easier
to fly? Help me out guys, because on paper, the Elite seems to be the
one to build: it's all metal (no dope on the flaps & ailerons), it
carries 100lbs more useful load, you can put the O-360 into it, et
cetera.

Darryl was also a big fan of the Elite, saying that, by the time you put
all the options people usually choose (e.g. spring gear) into the Rebel,
you might as well have the thicker skins and other plusses of the Elite.

So I have a question about the spring gear, too. It's *aluminum*
spring??? What's better for soft fields - the standard cub-style bungee
gear with tundra tires (and a Scott 3200 tail wheel, of course!), or
spring gear and 8x6.00 tires?

Or spring *and* tundras (can this indeed be done)? I ask because I have
heard that the Cessna 180 is not appropriate for tundra tires due to its
*steel* spring gear, which makes me wonder if one can indeed put big
wheels on the Elite?

Can you guys help me out, Rebel vs. Elite? I don't want to start a war,
but I would appreciate any recent advice on this topic. Also, any
advice you can give about the Rebel vs. RV-9 quandry would be of
assistance, too!


Bill




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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Bill !

There's another option - (C) Buy an already-flying Rebel ! :-)
That will get you immediate flying experience, good resale value,
and might just prove to be the airplane you really want !! ;-)

There's a nice O-320 Rebel nearby, for only $75K CDN ....
check Wayne's site ! (this is a bit under current prices, as it's
for quick sale ...)
......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 24 August 2005 03:54 pm, Bill Wagner wrote:

I'm the guy in Calgary who was planning to build a Moose. When I met
with Darryl in July, he suggested that, since I haven't any flying
experience, I should either (a) get a smaller certified tailwheel
aircraft to get proficient on, or (b) build something smaller before
tackling something like the Moose. I'm cool with that advice - I don't
want to bite off more than I can chew, and my wife & I don't have kids
yet (though this will happen sooner or later...).

Option (a) costs a lot more than (b), and at age 34, I'm still young
enough that there's time to do both. So I'm weighing the pros & cons of
the Rebel, the Elite, and, to my own surprise, the RV-9 taildragger,
which is supposed to be really easy to fly.

However, I hear the RV just isn't a soft field plane, and frankly,
that's where I want to end up, eventually. There are too many good
fishing holes out in the backcountry, and not all of them have an
airstrip located conveniently nearby.

Plus the stall speed of the Rebel is slightly better. Useful load is
better. You can put the O-360 on the Elite. Floats are an option that
I'd like to hang on to, so Murphy wins that test, too.

On the other hand, the RV seems to be a "one-stop shopping" experience
(the kit is really complete, and by all accounts very easy to put
together), and comes in about, oh, I would guess $10,000 cheaper than
the Elite if one is building a basic day-VFR plane. And it's hard to
argue with a 180mph cruising speed if one is flying in the Rocky
Mountains. I know, I know: apples to oranges.

One thing I can't figure out - why do Rebels seem to outnumber Elites 10
to one? Is it because the Elite is a newer design? Are Rebels easier
to fly? Help me out guys, because on paper, the Elite seems to be the
one to build: it's all metal (no dope on the flaps & ailerons), it
carries 100lbs more useful load, you can put the O-360 into it, et
cetera.

Darryl was also a big fan of the Elite, saying that, by the time you put
all the options people usually choose (e.g. spring gear) into the Rebel,
you might as well have the thicker skins and other plusses of the Elite.

So I have a question about the spring gear, too. It's *aluminum*
spring??? What's better for soft fields - the standard cub-style bungee
gear with tundra tires (and a Scott 3200 tail wheel, of course!), or
spring gear and 8x6.00 tires?

Or spring *and* tundras (can this indeed be done)? I ask because I have
heard that the Cessna 180 is not appropriate for tundra tires due to its
*steel* spring gear, which makes me wonder if one can indeed put big
wheels on the Elite?

Can you guys help me out, Rebel vs. Elite? I don't want to start a war,
but I would appreciate any recent advice on this topic. Also, any
advice you can give about the Rebel vs. RV-9 quandry would be of
assistance, too!


Bill




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[Alan Hepburn]

Bill:

I have an Elite, and one of the problems is that both the airplane and the
instructions are an adaptation of the Rebel. Quite a few errors have been
made, particularly in the instructions. So, if you build the Elite, you're
going to have quite a bit more head scratching than with the Rebel. It's
quite obvious that the prototype Elite is not the same as the kit airplane.
Things like a control stick that bumps into the instrument panel make that
clear. The Elite had a pitch sensitivity problem, but the fix that
everybody is now using has been approved by the factory at last, so that
removes a major miuns for the Elite.

If you want a rough field airplane, the old Rebel "Cub" gear is probably
sturdier than the spring gear on either airplane. On the other hand, the
door sills on the Elite are one piece, and I believe the built up sills on
the Rebel have required some re-inforcement. Ideally, you'd want the Rebel
gear and Elite door sills, which I suppose could be worked out. The Vans
kits have detailed instructions for everything. On the Murphy kits, once
you get to the firewall forward, they pretty well leave you to do your own
thing. Here's where having a nearby airplane to look at is a major help.
Perhaps this is one of the big reasons for the Rebel's popularity. It's
been out longer, so there are more of them around for builders to look
at/copy, so more builders pick the Rebel, so there are more of them around,
etc.

Al Hepburn





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[Bruce Georgen]

Hi Bill,

I believe the Rebel has been around for longer than the Elite and that is part of its popularity. The 0320 limitation on the Rebel is for weight and C of G considerations but with the firewall cut back and the lighter weight 0360 clones, If I built the Rebel again I would put an 0360 on it. And when you incorporate all the mods for the Rebel that have been flight proved for 15 years, I think you can have a well designed, proved, easy to fly and great float plane too.

I have no real experience with the Elite but I would not hesitate to but another Rebel. I would not use the spring gear if you intend to use it on unimproved strips. I wouldn't use it anyway.

Bob Paterson and Wayne Oshea are the two guys you should take to dinner and pick their brains about the Rebel and aircraft in general. They have a lot of knowledge to share for those who are willing to listen. And all the contributors to this list where as important as any direct factory support and an invaluable tool during construction. Thanks every one! Especially Bob P and Wayne O.

For you all still building. I went flying with a friend to our new vacation home at Priest Lake Idaho today. It was a perfect day for flying. We bounced around a few smaller lakes not approachable by road. Docked and beached the lane. It was all very spectacular. A dream come true really. It's all worth it so keep building guys.

Bruce
Rebel 0320 amphib

________________________________________
PeoplePC Online
A better way to Internet
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[Bill Wagner]

Thanks a bunch, guys, for your advice about Rebel vs. Elite, spring gear
vs. non-, and Murphy vs. RV. There's lots for me to chew about.

So is it indeed possible to put one of the "lightweight" O-360 clones on
a Rebel, or is that just a bad idea & I should stick to an O-320 if I
want to run amphibs one day?


Bill





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[wrightdg]

Murray Cherkas also has his for sale in Calgary. Give him a call.

On Wed, 2005-24-08 at 16:21 -0400, Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Bill !

There's another option - (C) Buy an already-flying Rebel ! :-)
That will get you immediate flying experience, good resale value,
and might just prove to be the airplane you really want !! ;-)

There's a nice O-320 Rebel nearby, for only $75K CDN ....
check Wayne's site ! (this is a bit under current prices, as it's
for quick sale ...)
......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 24 August 2005 03:54 pm, Bill Wagner wrote:

I'm the guy in Calgary who was planning to build a Moose. When I met
with Darryl in July, he suggested that, since I haven't any flying
experience, I should either (a) get a smaller certified tailwheel
aircraft to get proficient on, or (b) build something smaller before
tackling something like the Moose. I'm cool with that advice - I don't
want to bite off more than I can chew, and my wife & I don't have kids
yet (though this will happen sooner or later...).

Option (a) costs a lot more than (b), and at age 34, I'm still young
enough that there's time to do both. So I'm weighing the pros & cons of
the Rebel, the Elite, and, to my own surprise, the RV-9 taildragger,
which is supposed to be really easy to fly.

However, I hear the RV just isn't a soft field plane, and frankly,
that's where I want to end up, eventually. There are too many good
fishing holes out in the backcountry, and not all of them have an
airstrip located conveniently nearby.

Plus the stall speed of the Rebel is slightly better. Useful load is
better. You can put the O-360 on the Elite. Floats are an option that
I'd like to hang on to, so Murphy wins that test, too.

On the other hand, the RV seems to be a "one-stop shopping" experience
(the kit is really complete, and by all accounts very easy to put
together), and comes in about, oh, I would guess $10,000 cheaper than
the Elite if one is building a basic day-VFR plane. And it's hard to
argue with a 180mph cruising speed if one is flying in the Rocky
Mountains. I know, I know: apples to oranges.

One thing I can't figure out - why do Rebels seem to outnumber Elites 10
to one? Is it because the Elite is a newer design? Are Rebels easier
to fly? Help me out guys, because on paper, the Elite seems to be the
one to build: it's all metal (no dope on the flaps & ailerons), it
carries 100lbs more useful load, you can put the O-360 into it, et
cetera.

Darryl was also a big fan of the Elite, saying that, by the time you put
all the options people usually choose (e.g. spring gear) into the Rebel,
you might as well have the thicker skins and other plusses of the Elite.

So I have a question about the spring gear, too. It's *aluminum*
spring??? What's better for soft fields - the standard cub-style bungee
gear with tundra tires (and a Scott 3200 tail wheel, of course!), or
spring gear and 8x6.00 tires?

Or spring *and* tundras (can this indeed be done)? I ask because I have
heard that the Cessna 180 is not appropriate for tundra tires due to its
*steel* spring gear, which makes me wonder if one can indeed put big
wheels on the Elite?

Can you guys help me out, Rebel vs. Elite? I don't want to start a war,
but I would appreciate any recent advice on this topic. Also, any
advice you can give about the Rebel vs. RV-9 quandry would be of
assistance, too!


Bill




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[Walter Klatt]

I fly a Rebel 150 hp 0320 amphib. Great plane, but could use a
little more power where I live (BC). If I was building now, would
not hesitate to go with one of the 0360 clones. That extra 30 hp
would be just about right. Would also stick with the Murphy
amphib 1800's to keep weight down, and they have worked well for
me too.

While the Elite has more gross weight, it is also at least 100
pounds more than an equivalent Rebel, based on the ones that I
have seen. So for maximum performance, I would still choose the
Rebel today.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bill Wagner
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 5:16 PM
To: rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel /Elite landing gear


Thanks a bunch, guys, for your advice about Rebel vs.
Elite, spring gear
vs. non-, and Murphy vs. RV. There's lots for me to
chew about.

So is it indeed possible to put one of the
"lightweight" O-360 clones on
a Rebel, or is that just a bad idea & I should stick
to an O-320 if I
want to run amphibs one day?


Bill





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