The Murphy Builders Site

I just keep drilling holes, deburring holes, dipping rivets and pulling
rivets and wondering why there isn't some super epoxy that can hold at least as
well. I have messed with bisonite, devcon and some other epoxy's that hold very
very well. It just seems that with all the advanced adhesives there should
be something that will work for this. It wouldn't take much of a bond to have
the same shearing strength as a .020 piece of aluminum and instead of all the
stress points we induce with holes and rivets the load would be very even
and more aero efficient, and oh yeah no more deburring.... please god. The
worst part is I am just starting.

Brad
SR222




-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Brad,
There is, Loctite Multi-Bond Two Part Adhesive, Part No 33064. It is used by both Boeing & NASA. Tensile shear strength on oily steel of 11,700kpa(1700psi) or cleaned steel of 18,600 kpa(2700psi). I am using it in critical areas as well as riveting.


Regards,
Greg. Elite 724(still building).



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Good info, Greg.

What critical areas are you refering to? How does it interact with the
anti-corrosion material you use? Does it go on over or under or in
place of the anti-corrosion?

Thanks,
Fred

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
cosmedi@bigpond.net.au
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:19 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: epoxy/adhesive vs rivets

Hello Brad,
There is, Loctite Multi-Bond Two Part Adhesive, Part No 33064. It is
used by both Boeing & NASA. Tensile shear strength on oily steel of
11,700kpa(1700psi) or cleaned steel of 18,600 kpa(2700psi). I am using
it in critical areas as well as riveting.


Regards,
Greg. Elite 724(still building).



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login username "rebel"
password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Greg, Hi Brad,

Just picked up on your discussion below which really interests me.

I am just starting to build my Rebel and because of the health hazards
associated with
the Zinc Chromate--in the two part "Endura" product I bought-- I'm a bit
gun-shy about using the stuff--it stinks too!

Loctite Multi Bond Two Part Adhesive is a new product to me and I would
appreciate any feed back on the product that you care to offer.
How hazardous to ones health is it? Better or worse than Zinc Chromate?
Does it require a fresh air mask to apply it?
Would you know if it is as good a product as one containing ZC in the
"Endura" ?? although if Boeing/Nasa use it, it obviously must have something
going for it

My thanx in advance for any feedback you care to offer.

Cheers
Brian Breathnach
779R





----- Original Message -----
From: <cosmedi@bigpond.net.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: epoxy/adhesive vs rivets

Hello Brad,
There is, Loctite Multi-Bond Two Part Adhesive, Part No 33064. It is used
by both Boeing & NASA. Tensile shear strength on oily steel of
11,700kpa(1700psi) or cleaned steel of 18,600 kpa(2700psi). I am using it
in critical areas as well as riveting.


Regards,
Greg. Elite 724(still building).



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Fred,
I am using the adhesive in all major mating surfaces as well as riveting(or bolting); such as ribs to spars, doublers. spar attachments etc. I am also dipping all the rivets in proseal before pulling.
Where I use the adhesive, I am not using any anti-corrosion preparation. I am cleaning all bonding surfaces before using the adhesive with my own "home brew" of equal parts of acetone, MEK & toluene. A very good cleaning agent. I normally have a few tonnes of each solvent in my factory, but you should be able to easily source each of the solvents from a local hardware store or paint supplier. I am using proseal in all other mating surfaces as an adhesive, no other anti-corrosion agent. The anti corrosion agent that I use on all bolt/nuts is "Dualac" a compound of white spirits & barium chromate. Maybe overkill, but it is my aircraft and I will be flying it with my wife.
Kind regards,
Greg.





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I really wish I was brave enough to try and use less rivets and more
adhesive. If you used the rivets as permanent cleco's to hold the work while the
adhesive set and actually was the working bond this thing would fly together. I
just can't think of a good experimental part that wouldn't have catastrophic
side effects if it came apart in flight. Back to rivets I guess unless
someone has actual experience with using less mechanical bond and more chemical
bond.

Brad




-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I recently learned that some models of Wipeline floats epoxy bond the skins
and other parts. Just slamming down my first cup of coffee, and can't
remember what they use. A call to the St. Paul might produce the product
name.

Bob 612e

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 11:56 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: epoxy/adhesive vs rivets


I really wish I was brave enough to try and use less rivets and more
adhesive. If you used the rivets as permanent cleco's to hold the work while
the
adhesive set and actually was the working bond this thing would fly
together. I
just can't think of a good experimental part that wouldn't have
catastrophic
side effects if it came apart in flight. Back to rivets I guess unless
someone has actual experience with using less mechanical bond and more
chemical
bond.

Brad




-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------










-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Return Receipt

Your Re: epoxy/adhesive vs rivets
document:

was Bruce Uvanni/Burlington/IBM
received
by:

at: 08/19/2005 08:35:38








-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi all:
I have used some 3M epoxy adhesives on a few parts of my SR/Moose. One word
of caution for those considering adhesives for bonding surfaces - if you
ever need to repair/replace something, you probably will have to destroy it
to fix it. I may be wrong, but I understand Piper used to bond leading edge
ribs to wing skins until the repair issue surfaced.
Just a thought,
Tom Packard
SR 043



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---




-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Right on, Tom !

This has been my big concern with those using ProSeal to join sheets.
While the <recommended> PolyFiber Epoxy Primer DOES provide a substantial
strengthening of the joint, when assembled WET, it CAN be peeled apart in
most cases, if you work carefully. Someday, at some time in your aircraft's
life, it WILL need service/repair work ! If the fuse is ProSealed together,
you might have to build a whole new fuse, as each part gets destroyed trying
to separate it !!

I believe the American Aviation aircraft, like the Yankee, had the
wing skins attached to the ribs by epoxy alone - no rivets. Richard Schreder's
later glider designs all used structural foam ribs and had the skins bonded
to the ribs by epoxy only - again, no rivets. These aircraft were DESIGNED
for this construction method - the Murphy kits WERE NOT !

Thanks for the reminder to use caution, Tom !

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 19 August 2005 09:07 am, jtpackard@usfamily.net wrote:

Hi all:
I have used some 3M epoxy adhesives on a few parts of my SR/Moose. One word
of caution for those considering adhesives for bonding surfaces - if you
ever need to repair/replace something, you probably will have to destroy it
to fix it. I may be wrong, but I understand Piper used to bond leading edge
ribs to wing skins until the repair issue surfaced.
Just a thought,
Tom Packard
SR 043



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --

http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

How will you ever sell the airplane if it is "bonded" together instead of riveted??? And don't say you don't plan on selling, things always change.....






Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca> wrote:

Right on, Tom !

This has been my big concern with those using ProSeal to join sheets.
While the PolyFiber Epoxy Primer DOES provide a substantial
strengthening of the joint, when assembled WET, it CAN be peeled apart in
most cases, if you work carefully. Someday, at some time in your aircraft's
life, it WILL need service/repair work ! If the fuse is ProSealed together,
you might have to build a whole new fuse, as each part gets destroyed trying
to separate it !!

I believe the American Aviation aircraft, like the Yankee, had the
wing skins attached to the ribs by epoxy alone - no rivets. Richard Schreder's
later glider designs all used structural foam ribs and had the skins bonded
to the ribs by epoxy only - again, no rivets. These aircraft were DESIGNED
for this construction method - the Murphy kits WERE NOT !

Thanks for the reminder to use caution, Tom !

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 19 August 2005 09:07 am, jtpackard@usfamily.net wrote:

Hi all:
I have used some 3M epoxy adhesives on a few parts of my SR/Moose. One word
of caution for those considering adhesives for bonding surfaces - if you
ever need to repair/replace something, you probably will have to destroy it
to fix it. I may be wrong, but I understand Piper used to bond leading edge
ribs to wing skins until the repair issue surfaced.
Just a thought,
Tom Packard
SR 043



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --

http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------





---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Greg ... it's called " duRalac " .... you left out the "R"

Biggus
(Rick)
----- Original Message -----
From: cosmedi@bigpond.net.au
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 8:42 AM
Subject: RE: epoxy/adhesive vs rivets


Hello Fred,
I am using the adhesive in all major mating surfaces as well as
riveting(or bolting); such as ribs to spars, doublers. spar attachments
etc. I am also dipping all the rivets in proseal before pulling.
Where I use the adhesive, I am not using any anti-corrosion
preparation. I am cleaning all bonding surfaces before using the
adhesive with my own "home brew" of equal parts of acetone, MEK &
toluene. A very good cleaning agent. I normally have a few tonnes of
each solvent in my factory, but you should be able to easily source each
of the solvents from a local hardware store or paint supplier. I am
using proseal in all other mating surfaces as an adhesive, no other
anti-corrosion agent. The anti corrosion agent that I use on all
bolt/nuts is "Dualac" a compound of white spirits & barium chromate.
Maybe overkill, but it is my aircraft and I will be flying it with my
wife.
Kind regards,
Greg.





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------







-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Rick. You have confirmed what my wife has been saying recently.... I do need to get a pair of glasses. Now Sue will give you a big hug & kiss!!!!

Kind regards,
Greg.



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Brian,
Just saw your email amongst the clutter of other emails. Multi Bond contains methacrylic acid as well as methacrylate esters so it is potentially dangerous like a lot of other chemicals. Best used in a well ventilated area and wear protective gloves and eye wear.

Kind regards,
Greg Elite 724



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Greg,
Thanks for the heads up and feed-back. All the info I can get on the subject
is very welcome.Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I was out of
town for a few weeks.
Cheers
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: <cosmedi@bigpond.net.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: epoxy/adhesive vs rivets

Hello Brian,
Just saw your email amongst the clutter of other emails. Multi Bond
contains methacrylic acid as well as methacrylate esters so it is
potentially dangerous like a lot of other chemicals. Best used in a well
ventilated area and wear protective gloves and eye wear.

Kind regards,
Greg Elite 724



-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------