The Murphy Builders Site

Builder's List Members,

I'm considering the Elite as an initial step prior to the acquisition of a late
model C180 or C185. One of my primary questions in determining how well the
Elite will suit my needs follows.

The combined weight of my wife and I is 280 pounds. Our two dogs represent an
additional 145 pounds (One @ 105, the other @ 40). All four creatures yield:
425 pounds. Our first child will arrive next month. The Elite is described as
a '2+1' aircraft. The Murphy literature states a 'jump seat' can be added for
a third passenger weighing up to 175 pounds.

Typical time frames for an infant to exceed 30 pounds are over a year. In
turn, this is the estimated period our two dogs and the child will take to
achieve the estimated 3rd passenger weight Murphy stipulates. What weight
specification should I allow for pilot and co-pilot?

If the Elite can physically hold 3 adults why not 2 adults, 2 dogs and a child?
It would seem passenger weight and cargo can be balanced as needed while
satisfying the gross weight requirement of any aircraft. However, I think I
also have to consider where the weight is located relative to CG. Clearly,
adults would be seated and dogs might best be secured via a harness while
seated or laying on the floor of the aircraft.

The difficulty with these estimates is knowing how far aft you can position
this type of weight (i.e., mobile weight). The approximate cargo capacity of
800 pounds tells me the Elite should accommodate all my potential 'passengers'
but as I am a novice I should determine this before purchasing the kit and
attempting to fly it in this manner. A bigger project, such as the SR 2500 or
SR 3500 is simply not appropriate for the responsibilites I currently have in
my life. I think I could handle the Elite in this regard.

Headroom should be sufficient as MAM states a 3rd adult and jump seat can be
added (How tall an adult?). In turn, I would think 'roominess' is not an issue
regarding locating the dogs and the newborn/toddler behind the two front seats.

Please advise. Your assistance is appreciated.

Thanks,

Rick





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Rick,

I have a Rebel on floats so will not attempt to address your question
directly. I would however be comfortable with the numbers you quote with
the possible exeption that the elite is usually a bit heavier than you
expect once it is in the air.

Your first sentence indicates a preference for certified aircraft over
experimentals and your motivation to even consider an experimental is
economic. I assume that you would be looking for a used Elite which is
already airborne. The best way to satify yourself on the question is to
look for that used aircraft and request copies of the Wt&Bal from the
seller. Then validate that Wt&Bal with other sellers. Believe it or not,
some of these have actually been wrong for some reason.

In my case I wanted to build, but bought because I'm getting pretty long
in the tooth and want to fly. If the only reason for purchasing an
experimental is financial, then that is insufficient reason IMHO. There
are many reasons for experimentals but without an abiding technical
interest in aircraft and all aspects of design and construction I would
not do it.

I know that this is a particularly frustrating period in trying to suss
out what you really want. Just be patient and know yourself. Good luck.

Garry Wright
C-FOKM R068 Amphib
wrightdg@davincibb.net


On Fri, 2005-08-07 at 03:04 -0800, ravc1@dcsol.com wrote:

Builder's List Members,

I'm considering the Elite as an initial step prior to the acquisition of a late
model C180 or C185. One of my primary questions in determining how well the
Elite will suit my needs follows.

The combined weight of my wife and I is 280 pounds. Our two dogs represent an
additional 145 pounds (One @ 105, the other @ 40). All four creatures yield:
425 pounds. Our first child will arrive next month. The Elite is described as
a '2+1' aircraft. The Murphy literature states a 'jump seat' can be added for
a third passenger weighing up to 175 pounds.

Typical time frames for an infant to exceed 30 pounds are over a year. In
turn, this is the estimated period our two dogs and the child will take to
achieve the estimated 3rd passenger weight Murphy stipulates. What weight
specification should I allow for pilot and co-pilot?

If the Elite can physically hold 3 adults why not 2 adults, 2 dogs and a child?
It would seem passenger weight and cargo can be balanced as needed while
satisfying the gross weight requirement of any aircraft. However, I think I
also have to consider where the weight is located relative to CG. Clearly,
adults would be seated and dogs might best be secured via a harness while
seated or laying on the floor of the aircraft.

The difficulty with these estimates is knowing how far aft you can position
this type of weight (i.e., mobile weight). The approximate cargo capacity of
800 pounds tells me the Elite should accommodate all my potential 'passengers'
but as I am a novice I should determine this before purchasing the kit and
attempting to fly it in this manner. A bigger project, such as the SR 2500 or
SR 3500 is simply not appropriate for the responsibilites I currently have in
my life. I think I could handle the Elite in this regard.

Headroom should be sufficient as MAM states a 3rd adult and jump seat can be
added (How tall an adult?). In turn, I would think 'roominess' is not an issue
regarding locating the dogs and the newborn/toddler behind the two front seats.

Please advise. Your assistance is appreciated.

Thanks,

Rick





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

As already mentioned, I think your usable weight estimate for an Elite is a
little high. Seems like most come in between 1050 and 1100 lbs, so you may
want to work with 700 lbs useful just to see if it will fit your needs...
especially since you're talking about adding a seat in the back. That said,
with full fuel, you should have about 450 lbs for your passengers and
baggage. As for the CG, I believe this should not be a problem, since most
of your weight, fuel and adults, is forward. It seems like most of Murphy's
aircraft like a little weight in the back anyway.

What about you Elite drivers out there? Am I very far from the mark here?

Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: <ravc1@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:04 AM
Subject: Gross Weight, Passenger Capacity & Cargo

Builder's List Members,

I'm considering the Elite as an initial step prior to the acquisition of a
late
model C180 or C185. One of my primary questions in determining how well
the
Elite will suit my needs follows.

The combined weight of my wife and I is 280 pounds. Our two dogs represent
an
additional 145 pounds (One @ 105, the other @ 40). All four creatures
yield:
425 pounds. Our first child will arrive next month. The Elite is
described as
a '2+1' aircraft. The Murphy literature states a 'jump seat' can be added
for
a third passenger weighing up to 175 pounds.

Typical time frames for an infant to exceed 30 pounds are over a year. In
turn, this is the estimated period our two dogs and the child will take to
achieve the estimated 3rd passenger weight Murphy stipulates. What weight
specification should I allow for pilot and co-pilot?

If the Elite can physically hold 3 adults why not 2 adults, 2 dogs and a
child?
It would seem passenger weight and cargo can be balanced as needed while
satisfying the gross weight requirement of any aircraft. However, I think
I
also have to consider where the weight is located relative to CG.
Clearly,
adults would be seated and dogs might best be secured via a harness while
seated or laying on the floor of the aircraft.

The difficulty with these estimates is knowing how far aft you can
position
this type of weight (i.e., mobile weight). The approximate cargo capacity
of
800 pounds tells me the Elite should accommodate all my potential
'passengers'
but as I am a novice I should determine this before purchasing the kit and
attempting to fly it in this manner. A bigger project, such as the SR
2500 or
SR 3500 is simply not appropriate for the responsibilites I currently have
in
my life. I think I could handle the Elite in this regard.

Headroom should be sufficient as MAM states a 3rd adult and jump seat can
be
added (How tall an adult?). In turn, I would think 'roominess' is not an
issue
regarding locating the dogs and the newborn/toddler behind the two front
seats.

Please advise. Your assistance is appreciated.

Thanks,

Rick





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Rick !

Your premise is correct - there's no reason the load can't consist of
2 dogs and a child, weight-wise. I don't know of any Elites with an extra
seat, but there are at least 5 Rebels in Ontario with 4 seats - one was flown
regularly with 4 adults, with only a Lycoming O-235 for power !

I'm a little puzzled by some of your comments, though.... unless you
are planning to buy a flying Elite, you will likely need at least a couple
of years to build one - so the child weight will be higher than you guess.
I know of only 2 people who built Rebels in under a year - and nobody
who has completed an Elite that quickly..... about 3 years is most
typical, as life gets in the way for most folks. ;-)

A big consideration is: Will the dogs, my wife, and child actually
LIKE/WANT to fly with me !! Some dogs suffer greatly from the
engine noise and pressure changes, and you should certainly do
something to protect their ears, as well as your infant's ears !!
I know of some dogs that love to fly - and their owners have
made up oversized padded headsets for them. As for your wife -
if you have one who loves to fly, and will go anywhere, anytime,
with you, you are indeed blessed !! Many will tire quickly of
the novelty - and the enormous aggravations of taking along the
baby seat, bottles, diapers, wipes, etc., etc., that are needed
to travel ....... Oh yes, and don't forget to add space and weight
allowance for that, and some luggage for yourself, too .... ;-)

What I'm trying to say is ..... while the idea of flying together
as a family sounds very romantic, the reality is that probably 90%
of all private aircraft fly with one person aboard, 90 % of the time !
If you are serious about flying together as a family, be sure the
dogs can take it, and keep an eye out for a Super Rebel or Moose -
there are a few for sale at reasonable prices, if you ask here .
If you lean to certified aircraft, maybe a C-170, or C-180 might
be a better bet, although you have to go a loooong way to beat
an old, square-tailed 1958 or 1959 Cessna 172 for an all-around
cheap to fly and buy airplane that will hold resale value !!

If reality sets in, and you want a great flying, fun airplane
that <could> do everything you want, look for a Rebel ! There
are several good ones for sale, and a few partially-completed projects
out there, too .... Again, good performance, delightful to fly,
and they hold resale value !

As always - first decide what type of flying you WILL be doing,
THEN start to select an aircraft type.

Good luck - and HAVE FUN !!! :-)

.......bobp


-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 08 July 2005 07:04 am, ravc1@dcsol.com wrote:

Builder's List Members,

I'm considering the Elite as an initial step prior to the acquisition of a

late

model C180 or C185. One of my primary questions in determining how well the
Elite will suit my needs follows.

The combined weight of my wife and I is 280 pounds. Our two dogs represent

an

additional 145 pounds (One @ 105, the other @ 40). All four creatures

yield:

425 pounds. Our first child will arrive next month. The Elite is described

as

a '2+1' aircraft. The Murphy literature states a 'jump seat' can be added

for

a third passenger weighing up to 175 pounds.

Typical time frames for an infant to exceed 30 pounds are over a year. In
turn, this is the estimated period our two dogs and the child will take to
achieve the estimated 3rd passenger weight Murphy stipulates. What weight
specification should I allow for pilot and co-pilot?

If the Elite can physically hold 3 adults why not 2 adults, 2 dogs and a

child?

It would seem passenger weight and cargo can be balanced as needed while
satisfying the gross weight requirement of any aircraft. However, I think I
also have to consider where the weight is located relative to CG. Clearly,
adults would be seated and dogs might best be secured via a harness while
seated or laying on the floor of the aircraft.

The difficulty with these estimates is knowing how far aft you can position
this type of weight (i.e., mobile weight). The approximate cargo capacity

of

800 pounds tells me the Elite should accommodate all my potential

'passengers'

but as I am a novice I should determine this before purchasing the kit and
attempting to fly it in this manner. A bigger project, such as the SR 2500

or

SR 3500 is simply not appropriate for the responsibilites I currently have

in

my life. I think I could handle the Elite in this regard.

Headroom should be sufficient as MAM states a 3rd adult and jump seat can be
added (How tall an adult?). In turn, I would think 'roominess' is not an

issue

regarding locating the dogs and the newborn/toddler behind the two front

seats.

Please advise. Your assistance is appreciated.

Thanks,

Rick





-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://www.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Subscription services located at:
https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.htm
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------