Wing Tank Issues

[Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/M]

I have been screwing up the gas tanks for weeks now. Read everything in the
archives and settled on the manometer with 54" of water column = 2 psi - You
cant see it move but it is at equilibrium in 3 hrs - It is to a point where
I cant find the leak so I figure it must be in the main spar hidden by the
leading edge - To get to this point I have had to replace a couple of the
5/32" rivets probably 10 times - I had called MAM and asked about the "non
tank rivets" i.e. non 1/8" and they said not to worry. I have 5 bays and 3
inspection ports - my plan now is to add two more inspection bays, open it
up and goop the $^&% out of the front end - meanwhile it is taking longer
than I wanted -

Britt SR194



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[Ken]

That is a fairly high test pressure.
Are you absolutely positive that it isn't leaking through the fuel
filler opening?
Several of us found that opening tricky to perfectly seal. And tricky to
test. I must have put about 20 or 30 turns of an elastic band on the
rubber glove that I used to get a seal ;)

If you already have 3 inspection ports, could you spread brushable
proseal with the existing openings?

Ken

Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/MXRIE wrote:

I have been screwing up the gas tanks for weeks now. Read everything in the
archives and settled on the manometer with 54" of water column = 2 psi - You
cant see it move but it is at equilibrium in 3 hrs - It is to a point where
I cant find the leak so I figure it must be in the main spar hidden by the
leading edge - To get to this point I have had to replace a couple of the
5/32" rivets probably 10 times - I had called MAM and asked about the "non
tank rivets" i.e. non 1/8" and they said not to worry. I have 5 bays and 3
inspection ports - my plan now is to add two more inspection bays, open it
up and goop the $^&% out of the front end - meanwhile it is taking longer
than I wanted -

Britt SR194

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[Jones, Michael]

hi ken

any chance you can get me the bolt size for the bell crank with the rod ends
with the little bushings you installed

mike

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 9:30 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Wing Tank Issues


That is a fairly high test pressure.
Are you absolutely positive that it isn't leaking through the fuel
filler opening?
Several of us found that opening tricky to perfectly seal. And tricky to
test. I must have put about 20 or 30 turns of an elastic band on the
rubber glove that I used to get a seal ;)

If you already have 3 inspection ports, could you spread brushable
proseal with the existing openings?

Ken

Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/MXRIE wrote:

I have been screwing up the gas tanks for weeks now. Read everything in

the

archives and settled on the manometer with 54" of water column = 2 psi -

You

cant see it move but it is at equilibrium in 3 hrs - It is to a point

where

I cant find the leak so I figure it must be in the main spar hidden by the
leading edge - To get to this point I have had to replace a couple of the
5/32" rivets probably 10 times - I had called MAM and asked about the "non
tank rivets" i.e. non 1/8" and they said not to worry. I have 5 bays and 3
inspection ports - my plan now is to add two more inspection bays, open it
up and goop the $^&% out of the front end - meanwhile it is taking longer
than I wanted -

Britt SR194

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[Ralph Baker]

Britt,
We had a hard to find leak at the front spar and found by replacing the
standard "chest end" of an old stethoscope with a long piece of tubing.
The tank was pressurized to about 3 pounds (don't over do this!) and it
was easy to hear the leak get louder as the tube end approached the
leak. It does take access holes but allows the leak to be pinpointed.
Mechanics stethoscopes can be gotten at any auto tool supply house.
Ralph Baker
Elite 611E



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[Joel Jacobs]

I had problems sealing the filler neck too. I ended up covering the opening
with rubber sheet ( piece of inner tube) and wrapping tightly around the
neck with several turns of waxed tiewrap cord. After that my tanks didn't
leak any more!
Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Wing Tank Issues

That is a fairly high test pressure.
Are you absolutely positive that it isn't leaking through the fuel
filler opening?
Several of us found that opening tricky to perfectly seal. And tricky to
test. I must have put about 20 or 30 turns of an elastic band on the
rubber glove that I used to get a seal ;)

If you already have 3 inspection ports, could you spread brushable
proseal with the existing openings?

Ken

Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/MXRIE wrote:

I have been screwing up the gas tanks for weeks now. Read everything in

the

archives and settled on the manometer with 54" of water column = 2 psi -

You

cant see it move but it is at equilibrium in 3 hrs - It is to a point

where

I cant find the leak so I figure it must be in the main spar hidden by

the

leading edge - To get to this point I have had to replace a couple of the
5/32" rivets probably 10 times - I had called MAM and asked about the

"non

tank rivets" i.e. non 1/8" and they said not to worry. I have 5 bays and

3

inspection ports - my plan now is to add two more inspection bays, open

it

up and goop the $^&% out of the front end - meanwhile it is taking longer
than I wanted -

Britt SR194

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[WALTER KLATT]

When you guys are looking for really small leaks, don't rule out the top cover rivet mandrels if you are not using tank rivets. I had a few that leaked on me that I ended up fixing with Seal-All from the outside, and they've been good ever since.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Baker <rebaker@sc.rr.com>
Date: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:07 am
Subject: wing tank issues

Britt,
We had a hard to find leak at the front spar and found by
replacing the
standard "chest end" of an old stethoscope with a long piece of
tubing.
The tank was pressurized to about 3 pounds (don't over do this!)
and it
was easy to hear the leak get louder as the tube end approached
the
leak. It does take access holes but allows the leak to be
pinpointed.
Mechanics stethoscopes can be gotten at any auto tool supply house.
Ralph Baker
Elite 611E



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[Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/M]

Hey - Thanks for the Tips! -

Walter - I found a picture of Seal-All on a google search and I think I will
try to goop it in all mandrel holes before I fill with gas or paint.

On the "Stethoscope" thing - The long pipe on the Stethascope is a good idea
- I guess you stick it in from the front attach point - I "borrowed" a cool
ultrasonic tester from work that was supposed to find holes down to 4x10^-6
- Used both the contract probe and the "Focused" probe and it didn't help -
The soap worked the best.

On the Gas Cap idea - I have the "Flush" gas caps and am pretty sure that
there are no leaks there - the Ultrasonic and soap are not showing anything


In the Ultrasonic's defense - it can not get a good shot at the main spar
and the contact probe on the bays showed nothing.

Meanwhile I am ordering another Qt of Flamemaster

Thanks Again -- Britt - SR194





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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Brett !

I would keep the Seal-All as an emergency "field repair" -- you're much
better to put a bit of Pro-Seal (Flame-Master) on those rivets. You can order
the "brushable" version to make this easier - it's like honey for viscosity,
and ideal for pinholes.

Often, builders will reduce the pressure in the tank by putting a
Shop Vac hose inside (be careful not to close the inlet too tightly !!)
then brush the ProSeal onto the rivet heads, and let the vacuum
suck the PS into the rivets. Then turn off the vac & let the PS
set up - perfect cure for leaking rivets later.

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 May 2005 12:52 pm, Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/MXRIE wrote:

Hey - Thanks for the Tips! -

Walter - I found a picture of Seal-All on a google search and I think I will
try to goop it in all mandrel holes before I fill with gas or paint.

On the "Stethoscope" thing - The long pipe on the Stethascope is a good idea
- I guess you stick it in from the front attach point - I "borrowed" a cool
ultrasonic tester from work that was supposed to find holes down to 4x10^-6
- Used both the contract probe and the "Focused" probe and it didn't help -
The soap worked the best.

On the Gas Cap idea - I have the "Flush" gas caps and am pretty sure that
there are no leaks there - the Ultrasonic and soap are not showing anything


In the Ultrasonic's defense - it can not get a good shot at the main spar
and the contact probe on the bays showed nothing.

Meanwhile I am ordering another Qt of Flamemaster

Thanks Again -- Britt - SR194





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[Jean Poirier]

You can also add toluene thinner to standard pro-seal. that products is the
only thinner compatible.

Jean
Rebel 747R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <beep@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: wing tank issues

Hi Brett !

I would keep the Seal-All as an emergency "field repair" -- you're much
better to put a bit of Pro-Seal (Flame-Master) on those rivets. You can
order
the "brushable" version to make this easier - it's like honey for
viscosity,
and ideal for pinholes.

Often, builders will reduce the pressure in the tank by putting a
Shop Vac hose inside (be careful not to close the inlet too tightly !!)
then brush the ProSeal onto the rivet heads, and let the vacuum
suck the PS into the rivets. Then turn off the vac & let the PS
set up - perfect cure for leaking rivets later.

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 May 2005 12:52 pm, Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/MXRIE wrote:

Hey - Thanks for the Tips! -

Walter - I found a picture of Seal-All on a google search and I think I
will
try to goop it in all mandrel holes before I fill with gas or paint.

On the "Stethoscope" thing - The long pipe on the Stethascope is a good
idea
- I guess you stick it in from the front attach point - I "borrowed" a
cool
ultrasonic tester from work that was supposed to find holes down to
4x10^-6
- Used both the contract probe and the "Focused" probe and it didn't
help -
The soap worked the best.

On the Gas Cap idea - I have the "Flush" gas caps and am pretty sure that
there are no leaks there - the Ultrasonic and soap are not showing
anything


In the Ultrasonic's defense - it can not get a good shot at the main spar
and the contact probe on the bays showed nothing.

Meanwhile I am ordering another Qt of Flamemaster

Thanks Again -- Britt - SR194





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[WALTER KLATT]

As Bob says Seal-All is best as a field repair, and I keep a little tube in my toolbox. In my case I didn't discover these small leaks until after I was flying. And it is only the top rivets that have this problem, as all the rest you seal from the inside before closing up the tank. And just a small drop in the mandrel hole does it.

This Seal-All is definitely good stuff for sealing live gasoline leaks, though. It was a very important item where I grew up on a farm in Manitoba, where it was common to get gas tank leaks in your car with all the gravel roads we had. I still remember dabbing some of this stuff on some real gushers and you just held it there a bit with your finger on the hole so it wouldn't wash out, and it would seal it immediately. And the repairs always lasted longer than the car.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:44 am
Subject: Re: wing tank issues

Hi Brett !

I would keep the Seal-All as an emergency "field repair" --
you're much
better to put a bit of Pro-Seal (Flame-Master) on those rivets.
You can order
the "brushable" version to make this easier - it's like honey for
viscosity,and ideal for pinholes.

Often, builders will reduce the pressure in the tank by putting a
Shop Vac hose inside (be careful not to close the inlet too
tightly !!)
then brush the ProSeal onto the rivet heads, and let the vacuum
suck the PS into the rivets. Then turn off the vac & let the PS
set up - perfect cure for leaking rivets later.

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 May 2005 12:52 pm, Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/MXRIE
wrote:> Hey - Thanks for the Tips! -

Walter - I found a picture of Seal-All on a google search and I

think I will

try to goop it in all mandrel holes before I fill with gas or paint.

On the "Stethoscope" thing - The long pipe on the Stethascope is

a good idea

- I guess you stick it in from the front attach point - I

"borrowed" a cool

ultrasonic tester from work that was supposed to find holes down

to 4x10^-6

- Used both the contract probe and the "Focused" probe and it

didn't help -

The soap worked the best.

On the Gas Cap idea - I have the "Flush" gas caps and am pretty

sure that

there are no leaks there - the Ultrasonic and soap are not

showing anything

In the Ultrasonic's defense - it can not get a good shot at the

main spar

and the contact probe on the bays showed nothing.

Meanwhile I am ordering another Qt of Flamemaster

Thanks Again -- Britt - SR194





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[mbetti]

I was wondering, all these leaky mandrels?? Are these tank rivets that leak or do some of you use standard rivets on their tanks?
Mike Betti
771E

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:45:01 -0700, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:

As Bob says Seal-All is best as a field repair, and I keep a little tube in my toolbox. In my case I didn't discover these small leaks until after I was flying. And it is only the top rivets that have this problem, as all the rest you seal from the inside before closing up the tank. And just a small drop in the mandrel hole does it.

This Seal-All is definitely good stuff for sealing live gasoline leaks, though. It was a very important item where I grew up on a farm in Manitoba, where it was common to get gas tank leaks in your car with all the gravel roads we had. I still remember dabbing some of this stuff on some real gushers and you just held it there a bit with your finger on the hole so it wouldn't wash out, and it would seal it immediately. And the repairs always lasted longer than the car.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:44 am
Subject: Re: wing tank issues

Hi Brett !

I would keep the Seal-All as an emergency "field repair" --
you're much
better to put a bit of Pro-Seal (Flame-Master) on those rivets.
You can order
the "brushable" version to make this easier - it's like honey for
viscosity,and ideal for pinholes.

Often, builders will reduce the pressure in the tank by putting a
Shop Vac hose inside (be careful not to close the inlet too
tightly !!)
then brush the ProSeal onto the rivet heads, and let the vacuum
suck the PS into the rivets. Then turn off the vac & let the PS
set up - perfect cure for leaking rivets later.

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 May 2005 12:52 pm, Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/MXRIE
wrote:> Hey - Thanks for the Tips! -

Walter - I found a picture of Seal-All on a google search and I

think I will

try to goop it in all mandrel holes before I fill with gas or paint.

On the "Stethoscope" thing - The long pipe on the Stethascope is

a good idea

- I guess you stick it in from the front attach point - I

"borrowed" a cool

ultrasonic tester from work that was supposed to find holes down

to 4x10^-6

- Used both the contract probe and the "Focused" probe and it

didn't help -

The soap worked the best.

On the Gas Cap idea - I have the "Flush" gas caps and am pretty

sure that

there are no leaks there - the Ultrasonic and soap are not

showing anything

In the Ultrasonic's defense - it can not get a good shot at the

main spar

and the contact probe on the bays showed nothing.

Meanwhile I am ordering another Qt of Flamemaster

Thanks Again -- Britt - SR194





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[WALTER KLATT]

No, these were the standard rivets which were used before the tank rivets were supplied.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: mbetti@up.net
Date: Thursday, May 19, 2005 1:12 pm
Subject: Re: wing tank issues

I was wondering, all these leaky mandrels?? Are these tank rivets
that leak or do some of you use standard rivets on their tanks?
Mike Betti
771E

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:45:01 -0700, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:

As Bob says Seal-All is best as a field repair, and I keep a

little tube in my toolbox. In my case I didn't discover these
small leaks until after I was flying. And it is only the top
rivets that have this problem, as all the rest you seal from the
inside before closing up the tank. And just a small drop in the
mandrel hole does it.

This Seal-All is definitely good stuff for sealing live gasoline

leaks, though. It was a very important item where I grew up on a
farm in Manitoba, where it was common to get gas tank leaks in
your car with all the gravel roads we had. I still remember
dabbing some of this stuff on some real gushers and you just held
it there a bit with your finger on the hole so it wouldn't wash
out, and it would seal it immediately. And the repairs always
lasted longer than the car.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:44 am
Subject: Re: wing tank issues

Hi Brett !

I would keep the Seal-All as an emergency "field repair" --
you're much
better to put a bit of Pro-Seal (Flame-Master) on those rivets.

You can order
the "brushable" version to make this easier - it's like honey

for

viscosity,and ideal for pinholes.

Often, builders will reduce the pressure in the tank by putting a
Shop Vac hose inside (be careful not to close the inlet too
tightly !!)
then brush the ProSeal onto the rivet heads, and let the vacuum
suck the PS into the rivets. Then turn off the vac & let the PS
set up - perfect cure for leaking rivets later.

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 May 2005 12:52 pm, Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/MXRIE
wrote:> Hey - Thanks for the Tips! -

I

think I will

paint.>> >

is

a good idea "borrowed" a cool

down

to 4x10^-6 didn't help -

pretty

sure that showing anything

the

main spar

---

---

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[Bob Patterson]

Don't worry Mike - you won't likely have any leaky rivets ! One or
2 sometimes appear if the tank rivets split, but you'll see those right
away.

In the old days, all kits came with just the regular rivets - but the
tank rivets have been standard for years now.

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 May 2005 04:12 pm, mbetti@up.net wrote:

I was wondering, all these leaky mandrels?? Are these tank rivets that leak

or do some of you use standard rivets on their tanks?

Mike Betti
771E

On Thu, 19 May 2005 12:45:01 -0700, rebel-builders@dcsol.com said:

As Bob says Seal-All is best as a field repair, and I keep a little tube in

my toolbox. In my case I didn't discover these small leaks until after I was
flying. And it is only the top rivets that have this problem, as all the rest
you seal from the inside before closing up the tank. And just a small drop in
the mandrel hole does it.

This Seal-All is definitely good stuff for sealing live gasoline leaks,

though. It was a very important item where I grew up on a farm in Manitoba,
where it was common to get gas tank leaks in your car with all the gravel
roads we had. I still remember dabbing some of this stuff on some real
gushers and you just held it there a bit with your finger on the hole so it
wouldn't wash out, and it would seal it immediately. And the repairs always
lasted longer than the car.

Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, May 19, 2005 11:44 am
Subject: Re: wing tank issues

Hi Brett !

I would keep the Seal-All as an emergency "field repair" --
you're much
better to put a bit of Pro-Seal (Flame-Master) on those rivets.
You can order
the "brushable" version to make this easier - it's like honey for
viscosity,and ideal for pinholes.

Often, builders will reduce the pressure in the tank by putting a
Shop Vac hose inside (be careful not to close the inlet too
tightly !!)
then brush the ProSeal onto the rivet heads, and let the vacuum
suck the PS into the rivets. Then turn off the vac & let the PS
set up - perfect cure for leaking rivets later.

.......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 19 May 2005 12:52 pm, Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/MXRIE
wrote:> Hey - Thanks for the Tips! - think I will a good idea "borrowed" a cool to 4x10^-6 didn't help - sure that showing anything main spar
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[Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/M]

Mike - I think that the SR3500 has a little extra pain in the #%% factor -
The gusset plate that strengthens the top skin goes back over the tank and
picks up a stringer - there are a bunch of 3/8" and 5/32" rivets involved -
Hence the problem -

As far as the vacuum for the leaky rivets - so far if I find a leaky one I
change it even if it takes a couple of tries - If there are no apparent
leaks then I don't know what the vacuum get you and I can't get at the front
of the main spar.

Thanks again

Britt SR194



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[Reed Britt Civ 309 MXSG/M]

Perfection is the enemy of completion - Where do you draw the line???




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