The Murphy Builders Site

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: O-200 engine
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:18:11 -0500

You're right Walter ! And weight IS critical !!

There IS a difference in power, though - in standard configuration,
the O-200 was something like 90 hp/100 hp for 5 minutes, whereas
even the old O-235C1 was 100/108 hp for 5 min. (all aircraft engines
of that era showed a permitted higher output fot 5 minutes max.),
and an O-235L2C will give 108/118 hp - a significant improvement.

The O-200 was the old C-85 stretched, with higher compression,
etc. to about it's max. - any extra compression has blown cylinders off.
There are ways to get more power, but reliability really drops.

There seems to be a lot more room to improve on the O-235
without sacrificing so much ....

But all of that means work, time, and money - and a bare 912
still weighs only 128 lb - and a 912-S, installed, with water & oil,
will only be about 158 lb. - still lighter, and a modern engine, with
modern metallury, and modern design .... :-)

Maybe a few dollars more will get you flying a lot sooner,
and a lot easier, given that the design is pretty much off-the-shelf !

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 March 2005 11:02 pm, Walter Klatt wrote:

Not that I am pushing the 0200 over the 0235 lyc, but if weight
is important, the 0200 is listed at 170 lbs dry weight while the
0235-C comes in at 213. That's quite a difference for the same
power.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Patterson
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 9:33 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: O-200 engine



Hi Jean !

If you can find a real L2C (NOT an 'upgraded' one), or an N2C,
they are definitely worth the extra bucks ! Those 10
extra horses are
REAL horses - will give you at least 10 mph more
cruise, and make
floats <just> possible/bearable.

Our 80 hp. 912 Rebel outperformed our O-235 Rebel in
every area,
except - fully loaded on a very hot day, the climb was
better with the O-235.
Otherwise, the 912 took off shorter, climbed faster,
and cruised faster, on
half the fuel !! This is entirely because the O-235
weighs SOOoooo much more
than the 912 - weight is the performance secret ! :-)

Of course, going to an L2C would have changed that
(ours was an old C2C),
but going to a 912-S should swing the balance back to
the 912 in a big way !
I still think that's the best performance for the dollar ....

........bobp


-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 March 2005 11:09 am, Jean Poirier wrote: build, it was for the O-235 much cheaper than C1B for engine find yourself an out there you can pick I paid $6000cdn for mine sold it two years ago for like a top. Couldn't spark hens teeth, thanks to racers blowing them up at and very pricy. is..there is very little O-320 x150/160 HP as the an oil cooler to add to days. They are so close need to be re-adjusted. starter and the battery switched to the O-320 it has left the battery on the but still flew fine. I this fall, after installing forward of the datum .....so going to floats in the next fuel economy and O-200? Performance on fair price than Lycon and will have to choose the because the firewall with a smaller engine and -------------------------------------------------------
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Has anyone flown a Rebel on amphibs with an O-235, or 912?
Bobp, I rebember seeing a picture of you in the old archives with what
looked like a Rebel on Murphy 1500 amphibs. What engine did you have on
that?

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: O-200 engine
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:18:11 -0500

You're right Walter ! And weight IS critical !!

There IS a difference in power, though - in standard configuration,
the O-200 was something like 90 hp/100 hp for 5 minutes, whereas
even the old O-235C1 was 100/108 hp for 5 min. (all aircraft engines
of that era showed a permitted higher output fot 5 minutes max.),
and an O-235L2C will give 108/118 hp - a significant improvement.

The O-200 was the old C-85 stretched, with higher compression,
etc. to about it's max. - any extra compression has blown cylinders off.
There are ways to get more power, but reliability really drops.

There seems to be a lot more room to improve on the O-235
without sacrificing so much ....

But all of that means work, time, and money - and a bare 912
still weighs only 128 lb - and a 912-S, installed, with water & oil,
will only be about 158 lb. - still lighter, and a modern engine, with
modern metallury, and modern design .... :-)

Maybe a few dollars more will get you flying a lot sooner,
and a lot easier, given that the design is pretty much off-the-shelf !

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 March 2005 11:02 pm, Walter Klatt wrote:

Not that I am pushing the 0200 over the 0235 lyc, but if weight
is important, the 0200 is listed at 170 lbs dry weight while the
0235-C comes in at 213. That's quite a difference for the same
power.

Walter
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Hi Jesse !

Yes ! My old Rebel flew across Canada on Murphy 1500 amphibs,
with an old O-235C2C (with, as discovered later, 2 bad cylinders -
only about 52-54 lb. pressure ! ). Many folks said I was crazy
to try
amphibs on the O-235, but I had to try it ..... It was OK as a
singleseater - but I scared myself pretty badly, and wouldn't have
madeit through the Rockies if I weren't a glider pilot !! I
believe that
this setup <would> work with an O-236L2C or -N2C - the 10 + extra
horses would really help.

I know of a couple of Rebels flying on straight floats with O-235's,
and that seems acceptable - there's a challenge with the extra weight
& drag of amphibs, though.

We also flew our old 80 hp. 912 Rebel on 1500 straight floats,
and it was
quite acceptable - certainly outperformed our 85 hp. Aeronca Super
Chief !
Solo, Robin got off the water in about 6-7 seconds ! Dual, it
took us
about 32-34 seconds ---- still not too shabby, for 80 hp. !!

I really believe that a light Rebel with a 912-S should be quite
capable on Murphy 1500 amphibs - after all, I flew all those miles
with the O-235 that was putting out MAYBE 85-90 hp., and the
912-S setup should come in at least 100 lb. lighter. (There's an
old rule-of-thumb that says "100 lb of weight = 10 hp" for
performanceestimates). This should be a great configuration !

The Rebel really seems to be the IDEAL airplane for the
Sport Class !
........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 24 March 2005 12:13 pm, Jesse Jenks wrote:

Has anyone flown a Rebel on amphibs with an O-235, or 912?
Bobp, I rebember seeing a picture of you in the old archives

with what

looked like a Rebel on Murphy 1500 amphibs. What engine did you

have on

that?

From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: O-200 engine
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 23:18:11 -0500

You're right Walter ! And weight IS critical !!

There IS a difference in power, though - in standard

configuration,> >the O-200 was something like 90 hp/100 hp for 5
minutes, whereas

even the old O-235C1 was 100/108 hp for 5 min. (all aircraft

engines> >of that era showed a permitted higher output fot 5
minutes max.),

and an O-235L2C will give 108/118 hp - a significant improvement.

The O-200 was the old C-85 stretched, with higher compression,
etc. to about it's max. - any extra compression has blown

cylinders off.

There are ways to get more power, but reliability really drops.

There seems to be a lot more room to improve on the O-235
without sacrificing so much ....

But all of that means work, time, and money - and a bare 912
still weighs only 128 lb - and a 912-S, installed, with water &

oil,> >will only be about 158 lb. - still lighter, and a modern
engine, with

modern metallury, and modern design .... :-)

Maybe a few dollars more will get you flying a lot sooner,
and a lot easier, given that the design is pretty much off-the-

shelf !

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Wednesday 23 March 2005 11:02 pm, Walter Klatt wrote:

N2C,> > > > they are definitely worth the extra bucks ! Those 10

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Just my opinion, but if one is going through the years of effort to build

And if it's the 1320 Sportplane Rebel, and you want floats, then I think

But with wheels, anything goes. This is where almost any engine over 80 hp

JMHO
Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:39 am
Subject: Re: O-200 engine/fuel economy

Hi Jesse !

Yes ! My old Rebel flew across Canada on Murphy 1500 amphibs,
with an old O-235C2C (with, as discovered later, 2 bad cylinders -
only about 52-54 lb. pressure ! ). Many folks said I was crazy
to try
amphibs on the O-235, but I had to try it ..... It was OK as a
singleseater - but I scared myself pretty badly, and wouldn't have
madeit through the Rockies if I weren't a glider pilot !! I
believe that
this setup <would> work with an O-236L2C or -N2C - the 10 + extra
horses would really help.

I know of a couple of Rebels flying on straight floats with O-235's,
and that seems acceptable - there's a challenge with the extra weight
& drag of amphibs, though.

We also flew our old 80 hp. 912 Rebel on 1500 straight floats,
and it was
quite acceptable - certainly outperformed our 85 hp. Aeronca Super
Chief !
Solo, Robin got off the water in about 6-7 seconds ! Dual, it
took us
about 32-34 seconds ---- still not too shabby, for 80 hp. !!

I really believe that a light Rebel with a 912-S should be quite
capable on Murphy 1500 amphibs - after all, I flew all those miles
with the O-235 that was putting out MAYBE 85-90 hp., and the
912-S setup should come in at least 100 lb. lighter. (There's an
old rule-of-thumb that says "100 lb of weight = 10 hp" for
performanceestimates). This should be a great configuration !

The Rebel really seems to be the IDEAL airplane for the
Sport Class !
........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 24 March 2005 12:13 pm, Jesse Jenks wrote:

Has anyone flown a Rebel on amphibs with an O-235, or 912?
Bobp, I rebember seeing a picture of you in the old archives

with what

looked like a Rebel on Murphy 1500 amphibs. What engine did you

have on

that?

configuration,> >the O-200 was something like 90 hp/100 hp for 5
minutes, whereas

engines> >of that era showed a permitted higher output fot 5
minutes max.),

cylinders off.

oil,> >will only be about 158 lb. - still lighter, and a modern
engine, with

shelf !

N2C,> > > > they are definitely worth the extra bucks ! Those 10

--

----

----

----

----

----

----

----

----

----

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Just my opinion, but if one is going through the years of effort to build a

And if it's the 1320 Sportplane Rebel, and you want floats, then I think

But with wheels, anything goes. This is where almost any engine over 80 hp

JMHO
Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:39 am
Subject: Re: O-200 engine/fuel economy

Hi Jesse !

Yes ! My old Rebel flew across Canada on Murphy 1500 amphibs,
with an old O-235C2C (with, as discovered later, 2 bad cylinders -
only about 52-54 lb. pressure ! ). Many folks said I was crazy
to try
amphibs on the O-235, but I had to try it ..... It was OK as a
singleseater - but I scared myself pretty badly, and wouldn't have
madeit through the Rockies if I weren't a glider pilot !! I
believe that
this setup <would> work with an O-236L2C or -N2C - the 10 + extra
horses would really help.

I know of a couple of Rebels flying on straight floats with O-235's,
and that seems acceptable - there's a challenge with the extra weight
& drag of amphibs, though.

We also flew our old 80 hp. 912 Rebel on 1500 straight floats,
and it was
quite acceptable - certainly outperformed our 85 hp. Aeronca Super
Chief !
Solo, Robin got off the water in about 6-7 seconds ! Dual, it
took us
about 32-34 seconds ---- still not too shabby, for 80 hp. !!

I really believe that a light Rebel with a 912-S should be quite
capable on Murphy 1500 amphibs - after all, I flew all those miles
with the O-235 that was putting out MAYBE 85-90 hp., and the
912-S setup should come in at least 100 lb. lighter. (There's an
old rule-of-thumb that says "100 lb of weight = 10 hp" for
performanceestimates). This should be a great configuration !

The Rebel really seems to be the IDEAL airplane for the
Sport Class !
........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 24 March 2005 12:13 pm, Jesse Jenks wrote:

Has anyone flown a Rebel on amphibs with an O-235, or 912?
Bobp, I rebember seeing a picture of you in the old archives

with what

looked like a Rebel on Murphy 1500 amphibs. What engine did you

have on

that?

configuration,> >the O-200 was something like 90 hp/100 hp for 5
minutes, whereas

engines> >of that era showed a permitted higher output fot 5
minutes max.),

cylinders off.

oil,> >will only be about 158 lb. - still lighter, and a modern
engine, with

shelf !

N2C,> > > > they are definitely worth the extra bucks ! Those 10

--

----

----

----

----

----

----

----

----

----

-

-

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Right on, Walter ! For those who want "The world's greatest
float plane" - just install an O-320 in your Rebel, and enjoy !! :-)

I think this whole thread got started, though, because there are
MANY people in the US who want a great Sport Plane - and I
believe that the Rebel is IT !! The beauty of this approach is that
THEY ARE THE <SAME> AIRPLANE !!! If you build the Rebel
as Experimental, with the 912-S, you can fly it as a Sport Plane -
and sometime later, you could upgrade it to an O-320 and fly it
as a regular experimental. This means you have full resale value,
and a LOT of flexibility ! As a Sport Plane, at 1,320, you'll have
a stronger airplane - over +7 / -4.5 G -- better than anything else
I've seen for this class !! The Rebel - an overall winner !! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 24 March 2005 02:54 pm, WALTER KLATT wrote:

Just my opinion, but if one is going through the years of effort to

build a
full size Rebel and plan to fly amphibs, don't skimp with a smaller engine.
An 0320 would be my minimum size, and if I was doing it over, I would
actually look at installing the 0360. The Rebel is a great floatplane, so why
compromise it with an underpowered engine. A good used or overhauled 0320 is
not that expensive, especially compared to new, or some of the auto
conversions, and you are getting a very proven combination.

And if it's the 1320 Sportplane Rebel, and you want floats, then I think

your only alternative is the 912S, but it will cost you. In fact, I think you
could come out cheaper with a full sized Rebel and an 0320, if you were good
at shopping around.

But with wheels, anything goes. This is where almost any engine over 80 hp

would be very adequate.

JMHO
Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:39 am
Subject: Re: O-200 engine/fuel economy

Hi Jesse !

Yes ! My old Rebel flew across Canada on Murphy 1500 amphibs,
with an old O-235C2C (with, as discovered later, 2 bad cylinders -
only about 52-54 lb. pressure ! ). Many folks said I was crazy
to try
amphibs on the O-235, but I had to try it ..... It was OK as a
singleseater - but I scared myself pretty badly, and wouldn't have
madeit through the Rockies if I weren't a glider pilot !! I
believe that
this setup <would> work with an O-236L2C or -N2C - the 10 + extra
horses would really help.

I know of a couple of Rebels flying on straight floats with O-235's,
and that seems acceptable - there's a challenge with the extra weight
& drag of amphibs, though.

We also flew our old 80 hp. 912 Rebel on 1500 straight floats,
and it was
quite acceptable - certainly outperformed our 85 hp. Aeronca Super
Chief !
Solo, Robin got off the water in about 6-7 seconds ! Dual, it
took us
about 32-34 seconds ---- still not too shabby, for 80 hp. !!

I really believe that a light Rebel with a 912-S should be quite
capable on Murphy 1500 amphibs - after all, I flew all those miles
with the O-235 that was putting out MAYBE 85-90 hp., and the
912-S setup should come in at least 100 lb. lighter. (There's an
old rule-of-thumb that says "100 lb of weight = 10 hp" for
performanceestimates). This should be a great configuration !

The Rebel really seems to be the IDEAL airplane for the
Sport Class !
........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 24 March 2005 12:13 pm, Jesse Jenks wrote: with what have on configuration,> >the O-200 was something like 90 hp/100 hp for 5
minutes, whereas engines> >of that era showed a permitted higher output fot 5
minutes max.), cylinders off. oil,> >will only be about 158 lb. - still lighter, and a modern
engine, with shelf ! N2C,> > > > they are definitely worth the extra bucks ! Those 10 -- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- - -
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First I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread --
it has been most informative and offered lots of grist for the mill in my
mind.

I wholeheartedly agree that the Rebel is ideal as a 1320 Sport Plane. I
spent several hundred hours researching every possible contender on the
market or promised to the market including finished new planes along with
qualifying antique and experimental finished planes.

The Rebel offers more than any other I could find in useful load along
with
cockpit comfort and roominess. Big advantages for me (in addition to
structural integrity) are the flat fuselage floor and the ability to
remove
the passenger seat.

I am adding float hard points despite the extra weight to insure future
versatility; though my current plans only foresee use as a rough land
plane.

I am really looking forward to making Kansas less of an obstacle on my way
to Western Colorado. So I'll get off-line and back to the shop.

Thanks again to all, I've learned a lot. I've got a lot more to go.

John...


At 10:30 PM 03/24/05, you wrote:

Right on, Walter ! For those who want "The world's greatest
float plane" - just install an O-320 in your Rebel, and enjoy !! :-)

I think this whole thread got started, though, because there are
MANY people in the US who want a great Sport Plane - and I
believe that the Rebel is IT !! The beauty of this approach is that
THEY ARE THE <SAME> AIRPLANE !!! If you build the Rebel
as Experimental, with the 912-S, you can fly it as a Sport Plane -
and sometime later, you could upgrade it to an O-320 and fly it
as a regular experimental. This means you have full resale value,
and a LOT of flexibility ! As a Sport Plane, at 1,320, you'll have
a stronger airplane - over +7 / -4.5 G -- better than anything else
I've seen for this class !! The Rebel - an overall winner !! :-)

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 24 March 2005 02:54 pm, WALTER KLATT wrote:

Just my opinion, but if one is going through the years of effort to

build a
full size Rebel and plan to fly amphibs, don't skimp with a smaller
engine.
An 0320 would be my minimum size, and if I was doing it over, I would
actually look at installing the 0360. The Rebel is a great floatplane, so
why
compromise it with an underpowered engine. A good used or overhauled 0320
is
not that expensive, especially compared to new, or some of the auto
conversions, and you are getting a very proven combination.

And if it's the 1320 Sportplane Rebel, and you want floats, then I
think

your only alternative is the 912S, but it will cost you. In fact, I think
you
could come out cheaper with a full sized Rebel and an 0320, if you were
good
at shopping around.

But with wheels, anything goes. This is where almost any engine over 80
hp

would be very adequate.

JMHO
Walter

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Patterson <beep@sympatico.ca>
Date: Thursday, March 24, 2005 9:39 am
Subject: Re: O-200 engine/fuel economy
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