The Murphy Builders Site

Where bolts are a permanent part of the airframe and will never (never say
never right?) be removed, would it be Ok to install with wet primer like a
rivet? It seems strange to dip every rivet which is the same material as the
structure, and less likely to corrode, and not do anything for a steel bolt
which is theoretically in a more critical area to boot.
And what to do for bolts that will be removed? Is LPS-3 or some other waxy
type product a good answer? What about torque values with greasy threads?
I wouldn't worry about it so much if I wasn't going to be in salt, but I
know I won't be able to resist.
Thanks in advance.
Jesse





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Hi Jesse

I think you are getting into this ;)
It is not difficult to remove those "permanent" bolts if you put them in
wet with primer. That's what I do.
I don't really know what is recommended for "removeable" bolts but I try
to use "anti-seize" paste on them which is a bit messy but probably
better than just oil. I've never seen a source for the chromate paste of
years gone by. The problem is that I'm never sure when to use the stuff
as things seem to get taken apart much more than I expect. I'm sure my
"bungee" landing gear has been off 5 or 6 times for upgrades and
bulletins ;( I wouldn't hesitate to use the LPS product or a drop of
oil or grease. Especially firewall forward I had to start using dabs of
"torque seal" paint on the bolts to mark ones that had been fully
tightened. That should simplify maintanance inspections as well.

I see you've noticed that the specified torque is for dry threads. In
theory then the low end of the spec'd range might be good choice for wet
threads. In practice it never seems enough to me and I torque them same
as I would a dry thread. There is a good factor of safety available but
I've also read that most homebuilders tighten bolts too much... I use a
1/4" drive torque wrench but it is not an expensive unit held to a
certified standard. I believe the spec'd torque is torque in addition
to the torque that is required to turn the nut on before it gets tight,
which can be several lb.-in. on stop nuts.

Ken
119R

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Where bolts are a permanent part of the airframe and will never (never say
never right?) be removed, would it be Ok to install with wet primer like a
rivet? It seems strange to dip every rivet which is the same material as the
structure, and less likely to corrode, and not do anything for a steel bolt
which is theoretically in a more critical area to boot.
And what to do for bolts that will be removed? Is LPS-3 or some other waxy
type product a good answer? What about torque values with greasy threads?
I wouldn't worry about it so much if I wasn't going to be in salt, but I
know I won't be able to resist.
Thanks in advance.
Jesse

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Thanks Ken,
I have heard of chromate paste also, but not seen it. I did hear helicopter
mechs use it, maybe a lead.
I don't even have a torque wrench yet, but was thinking about getting one on
ebay because they are so expensive new. Would you suggest the automatic or
spring bar type?
Jesse

From: Ken <klehman@albedo.net>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Corrosion proofing on bolts
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:11:12 -0500

Hi Jesse

I think you are getting into this ;)
It is not difficult to remove those "permanent" bolts if you put them in
wet with primer. That's what I do.
I don't really know what is recommended for "removeable" bolts but I try
to use "anti-seize" paste on them which is a bit messy but probably
better than just oil. I've never seen a source for the chromate paste of
years gone by. The problem is that I'm never sure when to use the stuff
as things seem to get taken apart much more than I expect. I'm sure my
"bungee" landing gear has been off 5 or 6 times for upgrades and
bulletins ;( I wouldn't hesitate to use the LPS product or a drop of
oil or grease. Especially firewall forward I had to start using dabs of
"torque seal" paint on the bolts to mark ones that had been fully
tightened. That should simplify maintanance inspections as well.

I see you've noticed that the specified torque is for dry threads. In
theory then the low end of the spec'd range might be good choice for wet
threads. In practice it never seems enough to me and I torque them same
as I would a dry thread. There is a good factor of safety available but
I've also read that most homebuilders tighten bolts too much... I use a
1/4" drive torque wrench but it is not an expensive unit held to a
certified standard. I believe the spec'd torque is torque in addition
to the torque that is required to turn the nut on before it gets tight,
which can be several lb.-in. on stop nuts.

Ken
119R

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Where bolts are a permanent part of the airframe and will never (never

say

never right?) be removed, would it be Ok to install with wet primer like

a

rivet? It seems strange to dip every rivet which is the same material as

the

structure, and less likely to corrode, and not do anything for a steel

bolt

which is theoretically in a more critical area to boot.
And what to do for bolts that will be removed? Is LPS-3 or some other

waxy

type product a good answer? What about torque values with greasy threads?
I wouldn't worry about it so much if I wasn't going to be in salt, but I
know I won't be able to resist.
Thanks in advance.
Jesse

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I use a cheap 1/4" drive imported automatic one at about $15. on sale. I
did check it for accuracy when new and it was in the ballpark. I always
back off the spring tension when not in use and make sure it snaps
before dialing up the desired torque. We are dealing in lb.-INCHES not
lb.-feet like most automotive work

I've never seen a spring one (except fairly expensive aircraft ones) in
1/4" drive but I do prefer the spring ones for heavy duty engine work in
1/2" drive or even 3/8. The automatic ones are nice for going down a row
of bolts like on the wing spar but how often do we do anything like that...

Ken

Jesse Jenks wrote:

Thanks Ken,
I have heard of chromate paste also, but not seen it. I did hear helicopter
mechs use it, maybe a lead.
I don't even have a torque wrench yet, but was thinking about getting one on
ebay because they are so expensive new. Would you suggest the automatic or
spring bar type?
Jesse

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Hi Jesse

I use Mastinox or JC5 which is a yellow paste in a tube on all my joints and
bolts. It will not harden over time (I'm told:-)

You need to wear gloves though as it is poisonous and don't use it in a non
ventilated area.

Nigel
745E




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Thanks Nigel,
I talked to a mechanic at my airline today, and she said they use Mastinox
on landing gear, and flap bolts. She was going to give me a whole box of
expired tubes, but she couldn't find it. Oh well. She said it's nasty stuff
as well. I wonder if there's something more user friendly. I like to try to
minimize the amount of toxic stuff I work with. What about JC5? Is that the
same stuff?
Jesse

From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: Corrosion proofing on bolts
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:59:20 -0000

Hi Jesse

I use Mastinox or JC5 which is a yellow paste in a tube on all my joints
and
bolts. It will not harden over time (I'm told:-)

You need to wear gloves though as it is poisonous and don't use it in a non
ventilated area.

Nigel
745E




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Thought I'd pass on the following I received from Brent at MAM...

Mike, In the certified world we used to use a product called Mastinox, It is
put out by PPG aerospace. In this end of the industry I wouldn't touch it
with a ten foot pole. We used to call it Nastynox because it is so toxic.
Most people would be better off using a good automotive anti seize compound
from their local speed shop.

Brent


----- Original Message -----

Thanks Nigel,
I talked to a mechanic at my airline today, and she said they use Mastinox
on landing gear, and flap bolts. She was going to give me a whole box of
expired tubes, but she couldn't find it. Oh well. She said it's nasty
stuff
as well. I wonder if there's something more user friendly. I like to try
to
minimize the amount of toxic stuff I work with. What about JC5? Is that
the
same stuff?
Jesse

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Hi Jesse

I think they are similar, but different manufacturers. I prefer JC5 as it
seems a thicker paste and easier to control.

I get mine as time ex from the airline I work for (bmi) so although they
cannot be used anymore on the airbus/737 we have, they are still fine for
me.

I also get metaflex FCR to use on all parts, and dinatrol AV8 for a final
coat inside floor and awkward to dry out bits where moisture may accumulate.
Your friend will probably have heard of these as well.

I've just started the control cables, and Boeing use swaged threaded stub
ends on their control cables, and these fit nicely into the barrels of the
turnbuckles supplied to make a neater solution than the nicopress eyes
supplied. Each must be duplicate inspected during manufacture and proof
loaded afterwards (I took each of mine to 1200 lbs - should be enough :-).

I'm hopeful I can find a swaged eye end with a 1/4 eye hole to fit the 1/8
cable for the ends that attach to the rudder and elevator.

Good luck

Nigel

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Jesse Jenks
Sent: 06 February 2005 03:01
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Corrosion proofing on bolts


Thanks Nigel,
I talked to a mechanic at my airline today, and she said they use Mastinox
on landing gear, and flap bolts. She was going to give me a whole box of
expired tubes, but she couldn't find it. Oh well. She said it's nasty stuff
as well. I wonder if there's something more user friendly. I like to try to
minimize the amount of toxic stuff I work with. What about JC5? Is that the
same stuff?
Jesse

From: "N.Smith" <admin@airnig.co.uk>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: Corrosion proofing on bolts
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 10:59:20 -0000

Hi Jesse

I use Mastinox or JC5 which is a yellow paste in a tube on all my joints
and
bolts. It will not harden over time (I'm told:-)

You need to wear gloves though as it is poisonous and don't use it in a non
ventilated area.

Nigel
745E




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