The Murphy Builders Site

Wayne and Ken,

The CNC rolls in the Kelowna area that do the Barron Cuff is the

that I sent the cross section drawing of the Moose wing to for

Basically the design that needs to be done to optimize the cuff

with the plane can be done on computer Finite Element Analysis (FEA)

than wind tunnel experimental work. However, final aircraft flight

should also be done to verify FEA results. I understand that the

was a good educated guess and that it works really very well - it may

close enough and further FEA beyond the first guess for the shape may

necessary. The MOOSE application is different. The so called Dave

cuff for the Moose has never been engineered - just a guess was done -

my belief is that this guess of the shape for the moose is not optimal

further engineering could be done on its shape and extent of droop.

beauty of experimental airplanes is that you can spin a cuff off and

if you like, but my approach would be to have proper FEA done before I

the the trouble of flight testing. The basic concept is sound and I

the fellows in Kelowna have the expertise to do it correctly if

willing to offer a moose for a test bed.

I was told by MAM that the airfoil on the Moose is a modified Beaver
airfoil - I have not verified this myself, but I understand a slightly
different airfoil was choose to increase cruise speeds - maybe someone

MAM could provide specific details unless they consider it a technical
secret. I have made my own Cross Section CAD drawing of my wing and

would not be hard to compare it to other airfoils if someone was

I have spoken to both pilots of the Cuff installed MOOSE aircraft and

conclusion based on their test flight descriptions was that the cuffs

they have installed are not optimized to the extent that I would put

my MOOSE. There are other factors to consider when looking at the

installation - i.e. wing attachment angle and engine thrust angle,

also contribute to the performance of the cuff.

I have offered my Moose to the guys in Kelowna but have never followed

with them because it flys so nice now.

Ryan Mowat.

Ken,

Just for fun I pulled up the MAM web page spec for rebel and moose. The
MAM site does say the Rebel is a 4415, and the moose is a modified 4415
but makes no claim about the actual MOOSE airfoil.

I then pulled into CAD a standard 4415 airfoil and compared it to the
cross section from my own plane (real life - did it my self). Very
interesting - the cross-section from the MOOSE is very different then
the 4415 - it is deeper and a slightly different shape.

Based on this airfoil sketch comparison I would suggest that a cuff that
works on the Rebel or Beaver will not necessarily work on the Moose.

Ryan Mowat, P.Eng.
30528 1A Greatnorthern Ave
Abbotsford, BC V2T 6H4
(604) 556-7222 (ext 307), (604) 556-7215 (Fax)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ken
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:22 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel

The Rebel is certainly enjoying the spin off from the Beaver. Add much
refinement and flight testing and the price triples and the market dries
up though. I've heard the Rebel wing referred to as "modified" too but I
believe that mostly means a different flaperon arrangement. I think your
chances of optimising the aerofoil for a particular characteristic such
as lower stall speed are pretty good, but the challenge is achieving it
without compromising cruise speed or stability or something else.
Improving the stall, the cruise, and the stability on a Rebel with wing
cuffs is pretty impressive to me. It will be interesting to see some
flight reports from the guys with the cuffs on a Moose. Since it is
apparently the same wing, I'd certainly expect similar results although
perhaps not a higher cruise. Harry Riblett's aerofoil booklet has some
interesting info.
Ken

Ryan Mowat wrote:

Wayne and Ken,

The CNC rolls in the Kelowna area that do the Barron Cuff is the

company

that I sent the cross section drawing of the Moose wing to for

analysis.

Basically the design that needs to be done to optimize the cuff

performance

with the plane can be done on computer Finite Element Analysis (FEA)

rather

than wind tunnel experimental work. However, final aircraft flight

testing

should also be done to verify FEA results. I understand that the

Rebel cuff

was a good educated guess and that it works really very well - it may

be

close enough and further FEA beyond the first guess for the shape may

not be

necessary. The MOOSE application is different. The so called Dave

Barron

cuff for the Moose has never been engineered - just a guess was done -

and

my belief is that this guess of the shape for the moose is not optimal

-

further engineering could be done on its shape and extent of droop.

The

beauty of experimental airplanes is that you can spin a cuff off and

try it

if you like, but my approach would be to have proper FEA done before I

go

the the trouble of flight testing. The basic concept is sound and I

believe

the fellows in Kelowna have the expertise to do it correctly if

someone was

willing to offer a moose for a test bed.

I was told by MAM that the airfoil on the Moose is a modified Beaver
airfoil - I have not verified this myself, but I understand a slightly
different airfoil was choose to increase cruise speeds - maybe someone

at

MAM could provide specific details unless they consider it a technical
secret. I have made my own Cross Section CAD drawing of my wing and

it

would not be hard to compare it to other airfoils if someone was

interested.

I have spoken to both pilots of the Cuff installed MOOSE aircraft and

my

conclusion based on their test flight descriptions was that the cuffs

that

they have installed are not optimized to the extent that I would put

them on

my MOOSE. There are other factors to consider when looking at the

cuff

installation - i.e. wing attachment angle and engine thrust angle,

these

also contribute to the performance of the cuff.

I have offered my Moose to the guys in Kelowna but have never followed

up

with them because it flys so nice now.

Ryan Mowat.

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Like I said Ryan the Rebel wing is the exact same profile as the Moose....
Inch for inch....just 3 feet per side more of it on the SR/Moose.
Ribs TTBOMK come off the same die. They are just heavier material,
or are missing the lightening holes compared to the Rebel..but other
than that are exactly the same size and profile.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mowat" <RMowat@forge-industrial.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: VG's - Rebel - airfoil and the Moose 4415 and Cuff's

Ken,

Just for fun I pulled up the MAM web page spec for rebel and moose. The
MAM site does say the Rebel is a 4415, and the moose is a modified 4415
but makes no claim about the actual MOOSE airfoil.

I then pulled into CAD a standard 4415 airfoil and compared it to the
cross section from my own plane (real life - did it my self). Very
interesting - the cross-section from the MOOSE is very different then
the 4415 - it is deeper and a slightly different shape.

Based on this airfoil sketch comparison I would suggest that a cuff that
works on the Rebel or Beaver will not necessarily work on the Moose.

Ryan Mowat, P.Eng.
30528 1A Greatnorthern Ave
Abbotsford, BC V2T 6H4
(604) 556-7222 (ext 307), (604) 556-7215 (Fax)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ken
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:22 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel

The Rebel is certainly enjoying the spin off from the Beaver. Add much
refinement and flight testing and the price triples and the market dries
up though. I've heard the Rebel wing referred to as "modified" too but I
believe that mostly means a different flaperon arrangement. I think your
chances of optimising the aerofoil for a particular characteristic such
as lower stall speed are pretty good, but the challenge is achieving it
without compromising cruise speed or stability or something else.
Improving the stall, the cruise, and the stability on a Rebel with wing
cuffs is pretty impressive to me. It will be interesting to see some
flight reports from the guys with the cuffs on a Moose. Since it is
apparently the same wing, I'd certainly expect similar results although
perhaps not a higher cruise. Harry Riblett's aerofoil booklet has some
interesting info.
Ken

Ryan Mowat wrote:

Wayne and Ken,

The CNC rolls in the Kelowna area that do the Barron Cuff is the

company

that I sent the cross section drawing of the Moose wing to for

analysis.

Basically the design that needs to be done to optimize the cuff

performance

with the plane can be done on computer Finite Element Analysis (FEA)

rather

than wind tunnel experimental work. However, final aircraft flight

testing

should also be done to verify FEA results. I understand that the

Rebel cuff

was a good educated guess and that it works really very well - it may

be

close enough and further FEA beyond the first guess for the shape may

not be

necessary. The MOOSE application is different. The so called Dave

Barron

cuff for the Moose has never been engineered - just a guess was done -

and

my belief is that this guess of the shape for the moose is not optimal

-

further engineering could be done on its shape and extent of droop.

The

beauty of experimental airplanes is that you can spin a cuff off and

try it

if you like, but my approach would be to have proper FEA done before I

go

the the trouble of flight testing. The basic concept is sound and I

believe

the fellows in Kelowna have the expertise to do it correctly if

someone was

willing to offer a moose for a test bed.

I was told by MAM that the airfoil on the Moose is a modified Beaver
airfoil - I have not verified this myself, but I understand a slightly
different airfoil was choose to increase cruise speeds - maybe someone

at

MAM could provide specific details unless they consider it a technical
secret. I have made my own Cross Section CAD drawing of my wing and

it

would not be hard to compare it to other airfoils if someone was

interested.

I have spoken to both pilots of the Cuff installed MOOSE aircraft and

my

conclusion based on their test flight descriptions was that the cuffs

that

they have installed are not optimized to the extent that I would put

them on

my MOOSE. There are other factors to consider when looking at the

cuff

installation - i.e. wing attachment angle and engine thrust angle,

these

also contribute to the performance of the cuff.

I have offered my Moose to the guys in Kelowna but have never followed

up

with them because it flys so nice now.

Ryan Mowat.

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Iteresting Wayne

Then neither the Rebel nor moose are 4415 airfoils then.

Ryan

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:22:43 -0500, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote

Like I said Ryan the Rebel wing is the exact same profile as the

Inch for inch....just 3 feet per side more of it on the SR/Moose.
Ribs TTBOMK come off the same die. They are just heavier material,
or are missing the lightening holes compared to the Rebel..but other
than that are exactly the same size and profile.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mowat" <RMowat@forge-industrial.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: VG's - Rebel - airfoil and the Moose 4415 and Cuff's

Ken,

Just for fun I pulled up the MAM web page spec for rebel and moose.

MAM site does say the Rebel is a 4415, and the moose is a modified

but makes no claim about the actual MOOSE airfoil.

I then pulled into CAD a standard 4415 airfoil and compared it to the
cross section from my own plane (real life - did it my self). Very
interesting - the cross-section from the MOOSE is very different then
the 4415 - it is deeper and a slightly different shape.

Based on this airfoil sketch comparison I would suggest that a cuff

works on the Rebel or Beaver will not necessarily work on the Moose.

Ryan Mowat, P.Eng.
30528 1A Greatnorthern Ave
Abbotsford, BC V2T 6H4
(604) 556-7222 (ext 307), (604) 556-7215 (Fax)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ken
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 11:22 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel

The Rebel is certainly enjoying the spin off from the Beaver. Add much
refinement and flight testing and the price triples and the market

up though. I've heard the Rebel wing referred to as "modified" too but

believe that mostly means a different flaperon arrangement. I think

chances of optimising the aerofoil for a particular characteristic

as lower stall speed are pretty good, but the challenge is achieving

without compromising cruise speed or stability or something else.
Improving the stall, the cruise, and the stability on a Rebel with

cuffs is pretty impressive to me. It will be interesting to see some
flight reports from the guys with the cuffs on a Moose. Since it is
apparently the same wing, I'd certainly expect similar results

perhaps not a higher cruise. Harry Riblett's aerofoil booklet has

interesting info.
Ken

Ryan Mowat wrote:
company analysis. performance rather testing Rebel cuff

be

not be Barron

and

- The try it

go believe someone was

at

it interested.

my

that them on cuff these

up




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Probably not..but if the cuff works for the Rebel..it should be pretty

good for the Moose. Note that the outer ribs on the moose wings are

identical in thickness and lightening holes as the Rebel.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mowat" <rmowat@forge-industrial.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel - airfoil and the Moose 4415 and Cuff's

Iteresting Wayne

Then neither the Rebel nor moose are 4415 airfoils then.

Ryan

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:22:43 -0500, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote

Like I said Ryan the Rebel wing is the exact same profile as the

Moose....

Inch for inch....just 3 feet per side more of it on the SR/Moose.
Ribs TTBOMK come off the same die. They are just heavier material,
or are missing the lightening holes compared to the Rebel..but other
than that are exactly the same size and profile.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mowat" <RMowat@forge-industrial.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: VG's - Rebel - airfoil and the Moose 4415 and Cuff's

The

4415

that

dries

I

your

such

it

wing

although

some

may

may

done -

optimal

I

slightly

someone

technical

and

cuffs

followed

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Probably not..but if the cuff works for the Rebel..it should be
pretty darn good for the Moose. Note that the outer ribs on the
moose wings are actually identical in thickness and lightening holes
as the Rebel.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mowat" <rmowat@forge-industrial.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel - airfoil and the Moose 4415 and Cuff's

Iteresting Wayne

Then neither the Rebel nor moose are 4415 airfoils then.

Ryan

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:22:43 -0500, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote

Like I said Ryan the Rebel wing is the exact same profile as the

Moose....

Inch for inch....just 3 feet per side more of it on the SR/Moose.
Ribs TTBOMK come off the same die. They are just heavier material,
or are missing the lightening holes compared to the Rebel..but other
than that are exactly the same size and profile.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mowat" <RMowat@forge-industrial.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: VG's - Rebel - airfoil and the Moose 4415 and Cuff's

The

4415

that

dries

I

your

such

it

wing

although

some

may

may

done -

optimal

I

slightly

someone

technical

and

cuffs

followed

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Wayne, the problem with the translation from Rebel to the Moose cuff (or
Beaver to Moose) is the other factors such as CG, wing attachment angle,

engine thrust line - and just how much drop to do etc. The two MOOSE
airplanes that I know of with the cuff were never tested without the cuff

with the cuff alone, so there is not a good clean set of flight data to

the comparison with. A good test aircraft is needed.

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:53:53 -0500, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote

Probably not..but if the cuff works for the Rebel..it should be
pretty darn good for the Moose. Note that the outer ribs on the
moose wings are actually identical in thickness and lightening holes
as the Rebel.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mowat" <rmowat@forge-industrial.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel - airfoil and the Moose 4415 and Cuff's

Iteresting Wayne

Then neither the Rebel nor moose are 4415 airfoils then.

Ryan

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:22:43 -0500, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote

Moose....

The

4415

that

much

dries

but

I

your

such

it

wing

although

some

(FEA)

may

may

done -

optimal

and

before

I

I

Beaver

slightly

someone

technical

and

and

cuffs

put

followed

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From: "Ryan Mowat" <rmowat@forge-industrial.com>
Reply-To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel - airfoil and the Moose 4415 and Cuff's
Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:46:30 -0800

Wayne, the problem with the translation from Rebel to the Moose cuff (or
Beaver to Moose) is the other factors such as CG, wing attachment angle,
and
engine thrust line - and just how much drop to do etc. The two MOOSE
airplanes that I know of with the cuff were never tested without the cuff
or
with the cuff alone, so there is not a good clean set of flight data to
make
the comparison with. A good test aircraft is needed.

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:53:53 -0500, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote

Probably not..but if the cuff works for the Rebel..it should be
pretty darn good for the Moose. Note that the outer ribs on the
moose wings are actually identical in thickness and lightening holes
as the Rebel.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mowat" <rmowat@forge-industrial.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel - airfoil and the Moose 4415 and Cuff's

Iteresting Wayne

Then neither the Rebel nor moose are 4415 airfoils then.

Ryan

On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:22:43 -0500, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote

Moose....

moose.

The

4415

the

Very

then

cuff

that

Moose.

Of

much

dries

but

I

think

your

such

achieving

it

wing

some

is

although

some

(FEA)

flight

the

it

may

shape

may

Dave

done -

optimal

droop.

and

before

I

and
I

Beaver

slightly

someone

technical

and

aircraft

and

cuffs

put

the

angle,

followed

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