The Murphy Builders Site

Hi Allen !

I've flown a Rebel with VG's - my advice is don't do it ! The
McKenzie STOL kit (cuff & fences) DOES work - my impression -
<on the Rebel> is the VG's DO NOT !! Just MHO .....
(and YMMD !) :-)

I think VG's can help IF they are placed properly, based on real wind-tunnel
studies - just slapping them on willy-nilly is a recipe for disaster !
On the Rebel I flew, they destroyed the lateral stability - you couldn't let
go of the stick ! I can fly my Rebel with Fife tips & McKenzie STOL kit
for hours (!) without touching the stick !! The Vg's made for a sloppy
stall, falling off into a spiral dive every time - not possible to get a nice,
stable, safe spin out of it ! They also make washing, covering, and
snow removal really difficult !!! I didn't notice any reduction in stall
speed, either....

.........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 06 January 2005 06:38 pm, allen.hewko@dcsol.com wrote:

Has anyone had any experience with vortex gnerators on a Rebel ? Do
they work with Dave fife's wing tips?
I use the digest mode, so thanks in advance.
Allen H.



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I do find it curious that VGs helped so much on the Moose and are such a
nothing, or degradation to the Rebel. So, I just emailed PNWAero and asked
what they thought. Jerry (@ PNWAero) said they have done the placement
design work for the Rebel but not tested, and would expect improvements
similar to that of the Moose. If anyone wanted to try it, PNWAero does say
guaranteed, and their kit uses adhesive stick ons until best placement is
determined. I wonder if the past trials of VGs reported here were from
PNWAero VGs, or perhaps limited testing and non-ideal placment of something
else?
-Ben/ 496R

Hi Allen !

I've flown a Rebel with VG's - my advice is don't do it ! The
McKenzie STOL kit (cuff & fences) DOES work - my impression -
<on the Rebel> is the VG's DO NOT !! Just MHO .....
(and YMMD !) :-)

I think VG's can help IF they are placed properly, based on real wind-

tunnel

studies - just slapping them on willy-nilly is a recipe for disaster !
On the Rebel I flew, they destroyed the lateral stability - you couldn't let
go of the stick ! I can fly my Rebel with Fife tips & McKenzie STOL kit
for hours (!) without touching the stick !! The Vg's made for a sloppy
stall, falling off into a spiral dive every time - not possible to get a

nice,

stable, safe spin out of it ! They also make washing, covering, and
snow removal really difficult !!! I didn't notice any reduction in stall
speed, either....

.........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 06 January 2005 06:38 pm, allen.hewko@dcsol.com wrote:

Has anyone had any experience with vortex gnerators on a Rebel ? Do
they work with Dave fife's wing tips?
I use the digest mode, so thanks in advance.
Allen H.



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Allen, BobP,

I fly with Micro AeroDynamics VG,s [
www.microaero.com<http://www.microaero.com/> ] (after 125 Hrs. without
VG's) and would not fly without them. Best landing I ever made. Stall
in the mid 30's mph, same hands off flying as without, no wing drop.

MHO - Sorry Bob you must have flown a BAD example.
I do agree with BobP that "slapping them on willy-nilly ", snow removal,
and wing covering could be a problem. But I have a hanger and wash with
a soft brush.
I have never had any tendency for as BobP says "sloppy stall, falling
off into a spiral dive every time".

Chuck
R176 N225PC



Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:50:49 -0900
From: bransom@dcsol.com<mailto:bransom@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel

I do find it curious that VGs helped so much on the Moose and are such
a
nothing, or degradation to the Rebel. So, I just emailed PNWAero and
asked
what they thought. Jerry (@ PNWAero) said they have done the
placement
design work for the Rebel but not tested, and would expect
improvements
similar to that of the Moose. If anyone wanted to try it, PNWAero
does say
guaranteed, and their kit uses adhesive stick ons until best placement
is
determined. I wonder if the past trials of VGs reported here were
from
PNWAero VGs, or perhaps limited testing and non-ideal placment of
something
else?
-Ben/ 496R

Hi Allen !

I've flown a Rebel with VG's - my advice is don't do it !

The

McKenzie STOL kit (cuff & fences) DOES work - my impression -
<on the Rebel> is the VG's DO NOT !! Just MHO .....
(and YMMD !)

:-)

I think VG's can help IF they are placed properly, based on real

wind-
tunnel

studies - just slapping them on willy-nilly is a recipe for disaster

!

On the Rebel I flew, they destroyed the lateral stability - you

couldn't let

go of the stick ! I can fly my Rebel with Fife tips & McKenzie

STOL kit

for hours (!) without touching the stick !! The Vg's made for a

sloppy

stall, falling off into a spiral dive every time - not possible to

get a
nice,

stable, safe spin out of it ! They also make washing, covering,

and

snow removal really difficult !!! I didn't notice any reduction in

stall

speed, either....

.........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 06 January 2005 06:38 pm,

allen.hewko@dcsol.com<mailto:allen.hewko@dcsol.com> wrote:

Has anyone had any experience with vortex gnerators on a Rebel ?

Do

they work with Dave fife's wing tips?
I use the digest mode, so thanks in advance.
Allen H.

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Where are they located? I might be interested, if as you say it
made that much of a difference on the Moose. But I'm worried
about what Bob P. says, as I am pretty happy with the performance
that I get today, and wouldn't want to screw that up. But if it
helps me get out of a small 5000 foot elevation lake, fully
loaded, maybe its worth it. Don't usually have to worry about
cleaning snow off the wings in these parts.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
bransom@dcsol.com
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 2:51 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel


I do find it curious that VGs helped so much on the
Moose and are such a
nothing, or degradation to the Rebel. So, I just
emailed PNWAero and asked
what they thought. Jerry (@ PNWAero) said they have
done the placement
design work for the Rebel but not tested, and would
expect improvements
similar to that of the Moose. If anyone wanted to try
it, PNWAero does say
guaranteed, and their kit uses adhesive stick ons
until best placement is
determined. I wonder if the past trials of VGs
reported here were from
PNWAero VGs, or perhaps limited testing and non-ideal
placment of something
else?
-Ben/ 496R

Hi Allen !

I've flown a Rebel with VG's - my advice

is don't do it ! The

McKenzie STOL kit (cuff & fences) DOES work - my impression -
<on the Rebel> is the VG's DO NOT !! Just MHO .....

(and YMMD !) :-)

I think VG's can help IF they are placed properly,

based on real wind-
tunnel

studies - just slapping them on willy-nilly is a

recipe for disaster !

On the Rebel I flew, they destroyed the lateral

stability - you couldn't let

go of the stick ! I can fly my Rebel with Fife

tips & McKenzie STOL kit

for hours (!) without touching the stick !! The

Vg's made for a sloppy

stall, falling off into a spiral dive every time -

not possible to get a
nice,

stable, safe spin out of it ! They also make

washing, covering, and

snow removal really difficult !!! I didn't notice

any reduction in stall

speed, either....

.........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Thursday 06 January 2005 06:38 pm,

allen.hewko@dcsol.com wrote:

Has anyone had any experience with vortex

gnerators on a Rebel ? Do

they work with Dave fife's wing tips?
I use the digest mode, so thanks in advance.
Allen H.

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Another Rebel builder with VG's is Dan Stewart, hey Dan are you lurking out
there. Tell us how they worked for you.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "CHARLES A BAILEY" <baileyca9@msn.com>
To: <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel

Allen, BobP,

I fly with Micro AeroDynamics VG,s [
www.microaero.com<http://www.microaero.com/> ] (after 125 Hrs. without
VG's) and would not fly without them. Best landing I ever made. Stall
in the mid 30's mph, same hands off flying as without, no wing drop.

MHO - Sorry Bob you must have flown a BAD example.
I do agree with BobP that "slapping them on willy-nilly ", snow removal,
and wing covering could be a problem. But I have a hanger and wash with
a soft brush.
I have never had any tendency for as BobP says "sloppy stall, falling
off into a spiral dive every time".

Chuck
R176 N225PC



Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:50:49 -0900
From: bransom@dcsol.com<mailto:bransom@dcsol.com>
To: rebel-builders
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel

I do find it curious that VGs helped so much on the Moose and are such
a
nothing, or degradation to the Rebel. So, I just emailed PNWAero and
asked
what they thought. Jerry (@ PNWAero) said they have done the
placement
design work for the Rebel but not tested, and would expect
improvements
similar to that of the Moose. If anyone wanted to try it, PNWAero
does say
guaranteed, and their kit uses adhesive stick ons until best placement
is
determined. I wonder if the past trials of VGs reported here were
from
PNWAero VGs, or perhaps limited testing and non-ideal placment of
something
else?
-Ben/ 496R

Hi Allen !

I've flown a Rebel with VG's - my advice is don't do it !

The

McKenzie STOL kit (cuff & fences) DOES work - my impression -
<on the Rebel> is the VG's DO NOT !! Just MHO .....
(and YMMD !)

:-)

I think VG's can help IF they are placed properly, based on real

wind-
tunnel

studies - just slapping them on willy-nilly is a recipe for disaster

!

On the Rebel I flew, they destroyed the lateral stability - you

couldn't let

go of the stick ! I can fly my Rebel with Fife tips & McKenzie

STOL kit

for hours (!) without touching the stick !! The Vg's made for a

sloppy

stall, falling off into a spiral dive every time - not possible to

get a
nice,

stable, safe spin out of it ! They also make washing, covering,

and

snow removal really difficult !!! I didn't notice any reduction in

stall

speed, either....

.........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Thursday 06 January 2005 06:38 pm,

allen.hewko@dcsol.com<mailto:allen.hewko@dcsol.com> wrote:

Has anyone had any experience with vortex gnerators on a Rebel ?

Do

they work with Dave fife's wing tips?
I use the digest mode, so thanks in advance.
Allen H.

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I have to disagree w/B P also...I never noticed any speed reduction{top
spd}, still flew hands off, they slightly lowered stall spd, best thing they
did was to get rid of that high sink at low speed, in the flair..They would
be a pain in snow country...My acft flew at about 105mph, if you were able
to fly in the 130 and up range maybe they would cause the loss of a few
mphs...At about 200 bucks they are not expensive, if you don't like them
they can be removed..an d a big Hi to Al!




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Bob Did you fly this plane before and after? Is it possible that it was
just poorly rigged before the VG's

At 08:16 PM 1/6/2005 -0500, you wrote:

Hi Allen !

I've flown a Rebel with VG's - my advice is don't do it ! The
McKenzie STOL kit (cuff & fences) DOES work - my impression -
<on the Rebel> is the VG's DO NOT !! Just MHO .....
(and YMMD !) :-)

I think VG's can help IF they are placed properly, based on real wind-tunnel
studies - just slapping them on willy-nilly is a recipe for disaster !
On the Rebel I flew, they destroyed the lateral stability - you couldn't let
go of the stick ! I can fly my Rebel with Fife tips & McKenzie STOL kit
for hours (!) without touching the stick !! The Vg's made for a sloppy
stall, falling off into a spiral dive every time - not possible to get a

nice,

stable, safe spin out of it ! They also make washing, covering, and
snow removal really difficult !!! I didn't notice any reduction in stall
speed, either....

.........bobp

Drew





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Hi Ben !

It may well be that the Rebel I flew was an example of bad placement
of the VG's . I believe the builder followed the suppliers recommendations
for placement, but suspect that no proper wind-tunnel tests or analysis
was done to start with - this is likely why some people have great results,
while others are disappointed. If you can install them temporarily, and
don't mind a bunch of real test flying & moving, maybe it'd be worth it.
The positioning is affected by many factors - lighter Rebels with O-235's,
or 912's would need a different location than us O-320 drivers with the
original firewall position, and very forward CofG's ! ;-)

I'd like to hear from Moose drivers who have installed the McKenzie
STOL kit - are there any flying who are on this list ??? One possible reason
the Moose benefitted more from VG's is that it has split flaps & ailerons -
possibly the wing fences also help the aileron effectiveness by taming that
big vortex that comes off the gap.

I DO know that, on the Rebel, Dave Fife's wing tips make a proven,
measurable (over 20%) reduction in takeoff distance, and improve stability -
and that Angus McKenzies STOL kit of leading-edge cuffs & wing fences
greatly improves low speed handling. I can climb at over 800 fpm at 46 mph,
and an unreal attitude !!! That goes up to over 1,500 fpm at 70 mph...
One of the local Super Pitts pilots watched me doing "crash & dashes"
last year - said I was bringing tears to his eyes - one one landing, I swear
the tires didn't even squeak - just spun up to speed, it was so gentle !!
Usually there's nobody around when you get lucky ! ;-) :-)

I do believe that VG's on the bottom of the stab could be helpful in
increasing elevator authority for landing, again, IF they are placed
properly !

As an old glider pilot, I'm very reluctant to add such drag-producing
elements to an airplane - doubly so because they make great snow &
ice catchers ! ;-)

........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 07 January 2005 05:50 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

I do find it curious that VGs helped so much on the Moose and are such a
nothing, or degradation to the Rebel. So, I just emailed PNWAero and asked
what they thought. Jerry (@ PNWAero) said they have done the placement
design work for the Rebel but not tested, and would expect improvements
similar to that of the Moose. If anyone wanted to try it, PNWAero does say
guaranteed, and their kit uses adhesive stick ons until best placement is
determined. I wonder if the past trials of VGs reported here were from
PNWAero VGs, or perhaps limited testing and non-ideal placment of something
else?
-Ben/ 496R

Hi Allen !

I've flown a Rebel with VG's - my advice is don't do it ! The
McKenzie STOL kit (cuff & fences) DOES work - my impression -
<on the Rebel> is the VG's DO NOT !! Just MHO .....
(and YMMD !) :-)

I think VG's can help IF they are placed properly, based on real wind-

tunnel

studies - just slapping them on willy-nilly is a recipe for disaster !
On the Rebel I flew, they destroyed the lateral stability - you couldn't
let go of the stick ! I can fly my Rebel with Fife tips & McKenzie
STOL kit for hours (!) without touching the stick !! The Vg's made for
a sloppy stall, falling off into a spiral dive every time - not possible
to get a

nice,

stable, safe spin out of it ! They also make washing, covering, and
snow removal really difficult !!! I didn't notice any reduction in
stall speed, either....

.........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Thursday 06 January 2005 06:38 pm, allen.hewko@dcsol.com wrote:

Has anyone had any experience with vortex gnerators on a Rebel ? Do
they work with Dave fife's wing tips?
I use the digest mode, so thanks in advance.
Allen H.



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Bob,

I understand that the McKenzie Stol Kit for the Moose is not a true design
for the actual Moose wing - it is just a spin off from the Rebel and Beaver
ideas with no engineering analysis. I have sent in a CAD drawing of the
wing cross section to the fellows in Kelowna with the intentions of having a
real design completed and installed on my plane. However, after installing
VG's and new MAM wing tips I have really no reason to - the plane flys great
now. I would suggest installing VG's before leading edge cuff on a Moose -
the price is good and they tape on for trails and once your happy you can
glue them down for good. I installed the wing tips first and found great
stability improvements, 6 knots stall reduction at gross and if I wasn't
seeing things a 1-2 knot top speed increase. Then I installed the VG's, and
got another 5 knots reduction. My moose on floats stalled at 57 knots at
gross before the wing tips and VG's - At 57 knots I figured I'd kill my self
on a water landing with engine out - very heavy nose. With tips and VG's
stall is down under 45 knots at gross and I have done engine-out test on
wheels - works fine. In ground effect I am off the water under 50 knots now
and about 12 sec compared to 19 sec (Sea level, gross, 20 C).

I think there is one Moose with the so called McKenzie cuff in Vernon and
one in Phonix with both VG's and Cuff installed. The guys in Alaska were
trying to come up with a cuff - any updates?

Ryan Mowat



On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 00:01:08 -0500, Bob Patterson wrote

Hi Ben !

It may well be that the Rebel I flew was an example of bad placement
of the VG's . I believe the builder followed the suppliers recommendations
for placement, but suspect that no proper wind-tunnel tests or analysis
was done to start with - this is likely why some people have great
results, while others are disappointed. If you can install them
temporarily, and don't mind a bunch of real test flying & moving,
maybe it'd be worth it. The positioning is affected by many factors
- lighter Rebels with O-235's, or 912's would need a different
location than us O-320 drivers with the original firewall position,
and very forward CofG's ! ;-)

I'd like to hear from Moose drivers who have installed the McKenzie
STOL kit - are there any flying who are on this list ??? One
possible reason the Moose benefitted more from VG's is that it has
split flaps & ailerons - possibly the wing fences also help the
aileron effectiveness by taming that big vortex that comes off the gap.

I DO know that, on the Rebel, Dave Fife's wing tips make a proven,
measurable (over 20%) reduction in takeoff distance, and improve
stability - and that Angus McKenzies STOL kit of leading-edge cuffs
& wing fences greatly improves low speed handling. I can climb at
over 800 fpm at 46 mph, and an unreal attitude !!! That goes up to
over 1,500 fpm at 70 mph... One of the local Super Pitts pilots
watched me doing "crash & dashes" last year - said I was bringing
tears to his eyes - one one landing, I swear the tires didn't even
squeak - just spun up to speed, it was so gentle !! Usually there's
nobody around when you get lucky ! ;-) :-)

I do believe that VG's on the bottom of the stab could be helpful in
increasing elevator authority for landing, again, IF they are placed
properly !

As an old glider pilot, I'm very reluctant to add such drag-
producing elements to an airplane - doubly so because they make
great snow & ice catchers ! ;-)

........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 07 January 2005 05:50 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

I do find it curious that VGs helped so much on the Moose and are such a
nothing, or degradation to the Rebel. So, I just emailed PNWAero and

asked

what they thought. Jerry (@ PNWAero) said they have done the placement
design work for the Rebel but not tested, and would expect improvements
similar to that of the Moose. If anyone wanted to try it, PNWAero does

say

guaranteed, and their kit uses adhesive stick ons until best placement is
determined. I wonder if the past trials of VGs reported here were from
PNWAero VGs, or perhaps limited testing and non-ideal placment of

something

else?
-Ben/ 496R

Hi Allen !

I've flown a Rebel with VG's - my advice is don't do it !

The

McKenzie STOL kit (cuff & fences) DOES work - my impression -
<on the Rebel> is the VG's DO NOT !! Just MHO .....
(and YMMD !) :-)

I think VG's can help IF they are placed properly, based on real wind-

tunnel

studies - just slapping them on willy-nilly is a recipe for disaster !
On the Rebel I flew, they destroyed the lateral stability - you

couldn't

let go of the stick ! I can fly my Rebel with Fife tips & McKenzie
STOL kit for hours (!) without touching the stick !! The Vg's made

for

a sloppy stall, falling off into a spiral dive every time - not

possible

to get a

nice,

stable, safe spin out of it ! They also make washing, covering, and
snow removal really difficult !!! I didn't notice any reduction in
stall speed, either....

.........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------

On Thursday 06 January 2005 06:38 pm, allen.hewko@dcsol.com wrote:

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Hi Ryan

Is there some specific engineering that you are looking for? Real world
testing validates the engineering behind the physical attachment and is
often used in lieu of engineering in the homebuilt world. It's the
"that looks about right" method based on experience. Or are you just
being cautious like I was when I waited until there were several hundred
hours on Rebels with the cuffs to see if any problems such as cracks in
the 0.020 leading edge skin occurred. AFAIK, no problems appeared and I
did make the purchase.

I don't know squat about the Moose but I'm assuming it is still a 4415
aerofoil? Aerodynamics are another aspect but I've found it interesting
how close the comments on the 30 foot Rebel wing mirror experience with
the 60 foot deHavilland Otter wing (8000 lb gross) which are both 4415
aerofoils. The Otter droops the ailerons similar to the Rebel but it
droops the flap section at least twice as far. Its wingtips are similar
to MAM's Rebel wingtips. The Beaver is of course closer to the size of
the Moose but I don't have any experience with it.

Ken

Ryan Mowat wrote:

Bob,

I understand that the McKenzie Stol Kit for the Moose is not a true design
for the actual Moose wing - it is just a spin off from the Rebel and Beaver
ideas with no engineering analysis. I have sent in a CAD drawing of the
wing cross section to the fellows in Kelowna with the intentions of having a
real design completed and installed on my plane. However, after installing
VG's and new MAM wing tips I have really no reason to - the plane flys great
now. I would suggest installing VG's before leading edge cuff on a Moose -
the price is good and they tape on for trails and once your happy you can
glue them down for good. I installed the wing tips first and found great
stability improvements, 6 knots stall reduction at gross and if I wasn't
seeing things a 1-2 knot top speed increase. Then I installed the VG's, and
got another 5 knots reduction. My moose on floats stalled at 57 knots at
gross before the wing tips and VG's - At 57 knots I figured I'd kill my self
on a water landing with engine out - very heavy nose. With tips and VG's
stall is down under 45 knots at gross and I have done engine-out test on
wheels - works fine. In ground effect I am off the water under 50 knots now
and about 12 sec compared to 19 sec (Sea level, gross, 20 C).

I think there is one Moose with the so called McKenzie cuff in Vernon and
one in Phonix with both VG's and Cuff installed. The guys in Alaska were
trying to come up with a cuff - any updates?

Ryan Mowat

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I have no input for VG's or the Mckenzie cuff...but Ryan this "not a true
design" comment has me baffled. The McKenzie cuff is being rolled on the
same CNC rolls by Dave Barron as the Beaver cuff that costs mega bucks more.
The "it is just a spin off from the Rebel or Beaver"?? The Moose wing is
identical to the Rebel wing...just three feet longer and they are both
copies of the Beaver airfoil for all intensive purposes.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mowat" <rmowat@forge-industrial.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel

Bob,

I understand that the McKenzie Stol Kit for the Moose is not a true design
for the actual Moose wing - it is just a spin off from the Rebel and

Beaver

ideas with no engineering analysis. I have sent in a CAD drawing of the
wing cross section to the fellows in Kelowna with the intentions of having

a

real design completed and installed on my plane. However, after

installing

VG's and new MAM wing tips I have really no reason to - the plane flys

great

now. I would suggest installing VG's before leading edge cuff on a

Moose -

the price is good and they tape on for trails and once your happy you can
glue them down for good. I installed the wing tips first and found great
stability improvements, 6 knots stall reduction at gross and if I wasn't
seeing things a 1-2 knot top speed increase. Then I installed the VG's,

and

got another 5 knots reduction. My moose on floats stalled at 57 knots at
gross before the wing tips and VG's - At 57 knots I figured I'd kill my

self

on a water landing with engine out - very heavy nose. With tips and VG's
stall is down under 45 knots at gross and I have done engine-out test on
wheels - works fine. In ground effect I am off the water under 50 knots

now

and about 12 sec compared to 19 sec (Sea level, gross, 20 C).

I think there is one Moose with the so called McKenzie cuff in Vernon and
one in Phonix with both VG's and Cuff installed. The guys in Alaska were
trying to come up with a cuff - any updates?

Ryan Mowat



On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 00:01:08 -0500, Bob Patterson wrote

Hi Ben !

It may well be that the Rebel I flew was an example of bad placement
of the VG's . I believe the builder followed the suppliers

recommendations

for placement, but suspect that no proper wind-tunnel tests or analysis
was done to start with - this is likely why some people have great
results, while others are disappointed. If you can install them
temporarily, and don't mind a bunch of real test flying & moving,
maybe it'd be worth it. The positioning is affected by many factors
- lighter Rebels with O-235's, or 912's would need a different
location than us O-320 drivers with the original firewall position,
and very forward CofG's ! ;-)

I'd like to hear from Moose drivers who have installed the McKenzie
STOL kit - are there any flying who are on this list ??? One
possible reason the Moose benefitted more from VG's is that it has
split flaps & ailerons - possibly the wing fences also help the
aileron effectiveness by taming that big vortex that comes off the gap.

I DO know that, on the Rebel, Dave Fife's wing tips make a proven,
measurable (over 20%) reduction in takeoff distance, and improve
stability - and that Angus McKenzies STOL kit of leading-edge cuffs
& wing fences greatly improves low speed handling. I can climb at
over 800 fpm at 46 mph, and an unreal attitude !!! That goes up to
over 1,500 fpm at 70 mph... One of the local Super Pitts pilots
watched me doing "crash & dashes" last year - said I was bringing
tears to his eyes - one one landing, I swear the tires didn't even
squeak - just spun up to speed, it was so gentle !! Usually there's
nobody around when you get lucky ! ;-) :-)

I do believe that VG's on the bottom of the stab could be helpful in
increasing elevator authority for landing, again, IF they are placed
properly !

As an old glider pilot, I'm very reluctant to add such drag-
producing elements to an airplane - doubly so because they make
great snow & ice catchers ! ;-)

........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 07 January 2005 05:50 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

I do find it curious that VGs helped so much on the Moose and are such

a

nothing, or degradation to the Rebel. So, I just emailed PNWAero and

asked

what they thought. Jerry (@ PNWAero) said they have done the

placement

design work for the Rebel but not tested, and would expect

improvements

similar to that of the Moose. If anyone wanted to try it, PNWAero

does

say

guaranteed, and their kit uses adhesive stick ons until best placement

is

determined. I wonder if the past trials of VGs reported here were

from

PNWAero VGs, or perhaps limited testing and non-ideal placment of

something

else?
-Ben/ 496R

The

:-)

wind-

tunnel

!

couldn't

McKenzie

for

possible

nice,

and

Do

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Wayne and Ken,

The CNC rolls in the Kelowna area that do the Barron Cuff is the company
that I sent the cross section drawing of the Moose wing to for analysis.
Basically the design that needs to be done to optimize the cuff performance
with the plane can be done on computer Finite Element Analysis (FEA) rather
than wind tunnel experimental work. However, final aircraft flight testing
should also be done to verify FEA results. I understand that the Rebel cuff
was a good educated guess and that it works really very well - it may be
close enough and further FEA beyond the first guess for the shape may not be
necessary. The MOOSE application is different. The so called Dave Barron
cuff for the Moose has never been engineered - just a guess was done - and
my belief is that this guess of the shape for the moose is not optimal -
further engineering could be done on its shape and extent of droop. The
beauty of experimental airplanes is that you can spin a cuff off and try it
if you like, but my approach would be to have proper FEA done before I go
the the trouble of flight testing. The basic concept is sound and I believe
the fellows in Kelowna have the expertise to do it correctly if someone was
willing to offer a moose for a test bed.

I was told by MAM that the airfoil on the Moose is a modified Beaver
airfoil - I have not verified this myself, but I understand a slightly
different airfoil was choose to increase cruise speeds - maybe someone at
MAM could provide specific details unless they consider it a technical
secret. I have made my own Cross Section CAD drawing of my wing and it
would not be hard to compare it to other airfoils if someone was interested.

I have spoken to both pilots of the Cuff installed MOOSE aircraft and my
conclusion based on their test flight descriptions was that the cuffs that
they have installed are not optimized to the extent that I would put them on
my MOOSE. There are other factors to consider when looking at the cuff
installation - i.e. wing attachment angle and engine thrust angle, these
also contribute to the performance of the cuff.

I have offered my Moose to the guys in Kelowna but have never followed up
with them because it flys so nice now.

Ryan Mowat.



On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:06:47 -0500, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote

I have no input for VG's or the Mckenzie cuff...but Ryan this "not a
true design" comment has me baffled. The McKenzie cuff is being
rolled on the same CNC rolls by Dave Barron as the Beaver cuff that
costs mega bucks more. The "it is just a spin off from the Rebel or
Beaver"?? The Moose wing is identical to the Rebel wing...just three
feet longer and they are both copies of the Beaver airfoil for all
intensive purposes.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mowat" <rmowat@forge-industrial.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: VG's - Rebel

Bob,

I understand that the McKenzie Stol Kit for the Moose is not a true

design

for the actual Moose wing - it is just a spin off from the Rebel and

Beaver

ideas with no engineering analysis. I have sent in a CAD drawing of the
wing cross section to the fellows in Kelowna with the intentions of

having

a

real design completed and installed on my plane. However, after

installing

VG's and new MAM wing tips I have really no reason to - the plane flys

great

now. I would suggest installing VG's before leading edge cuff on a

Moose -

the price is good and they tape on for trails and once your happy you can
glue them down for good. I installed the wing tips first and found great
stability improvements, 6 knots stall reduction at gross and if I wasn't
seeing things a 1-2 knot top speed increase. Then I installed the VG's,

and

got another 5 knots reduction. My moose on floats stalled at 57 knots at
gross before the wing tips and VG's - At 57 knots I figured I'd kill my

self

on a water landing with engine out - very heavy nose. With tips and VG's
stall is down under 45 knots at gross and I have done engine-out test on
wheels - works fine. In ground effect I am off the water under 50 knots

now

and about 12 sec compared to 19 sec (Sea level, gross, 20 C).

I think there is one Moose with the so called McKenzie cuff in Vernon and
one in Phonix with both VG's and Cuff installed. The guys in Alaska were
trying to come up with a cuff - any updates?

Ryan Mowat



On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 00:01:08 -0500, Bob Patterson wrote

Hi Ben !

It may well be that the Rebel I flew was an example of bad placement
of the VG's . I believe the builder followed the suppliers

recommendations

for placement, but suspect that no proper wind-tunnel tests or analysis
was done to start with - this is likely why some people have great
results, while others are disappointed. If you can install them
temporarily, and don't mind a bunch of real test flying & moving,
maybe it'd be worth it. The positioning is affected by many factors
- lighter Rebels with O-235's, or 912's would need a different
location than us O-320 drivers with the original firewall position,
and very forward CofG's ! ;-)

I'd like to hear from Moose drivers who have installed the McKenzie
STOL kit - are there any flying who are on this list ??? One
possible reason the Moose benefitted more from VG's is that it has
split flaps & ailerons - possibly the wing fences also help the
aileron effectiveness by taming that big vortex that comes off the gap.

I DO know that, on the Rebel, Dave Fife's wing tips make a proven,
measurable (over 20%) reduction in takeoff distance, and improve
stability - and that Angus McKenzies STOL kit of leading-edge cuffs
& wing fences greatly improves low speed handling. I can climb at
over 800 fpm at 46 mph, and an unreal attitude !!! That goes up to
over 1,500 fpm at 70 mph... One of the local Super Pitts pilots
watched me doing "crash & dashes" last year - said I was bringing
tears to his eyes - one one landing, I swear the tires didn't even
squeak - just spun up to speed, it was so gentle !! Usually there's
nobody around when you get lucky ! ;-) :-)

I do believe that VG's on the bottom of the stab could be helpful in
increasing elevator authority for landing, again, IF they are placed
properly !

As an old glider pilot, I'm very reluctant to add such drag-
producing elements to an airplane - doubly so because they make
great snow & ice catchers ! ;-)

........bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Friday 07 January 2005 05:50 pm, bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

such

a

asked

placement

improvements

does

say

placement

is

from

something

The

:-)

wind-

disaster

!

couldn't

McKenzie

made

for

possible

and

in

Do

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The Rebel is certainly enjoying the spin off from the Beaver. Add much
refinement and flight testing and the price triples and the market dries
up though. I've heard the Rebel wing referred to as "modified" too but I
believe that mostly means a different flaperon arrangement. I think your
chances of optimising the aerofoil for a particular characteristic such
as lower stall speed are pretty good, but the challenge is achieving it
without compromising cruise speed or stability or something else.
Improving the stall, the cruise, and the stability on a Rebel with wing
cuffs is pretty impressive to me. It will be interesting to see some
flight reports from the guys with the cuffs on a Moose. Since it is
apparently the same wing, I'd certainly expect similar results although
perhaps not a higher cruise. Harry Riblett's aerofoil booklet has some
interesting info.
Ken

Ryan Mowat wrote:

Wayne and Ken,

The CNC rolls in the Kelowna area that do the Barron Cuff is the company
that I sent the cross section drawing of the Moose wing to for analysis.
Basically the design that needs to be done to optimize the cuff

performance

with the plane can be done on computer Finite Element Analysis (FEA)

rather

than wind tunnel experimental work. However, final aircraft flight

testing

should also be done to verify FEA results. I understand that the

Rebel cuff

was a good educated guess and that it works really very well - it may be
close enough and further FEA beyond the first guess for the shape may

not be

necessary. The MOOSE application is different. The so called Dave

Barron

cuff for the Moose has never been engineered - just a guess was done -

and

my belief is that this guess of the shape for the moose is not optimal -
further engineering could be done on its shape and extent of droop. The
beauty of experimental airplanes is that you can spin a cuff off and

try it

if you like, but my approach would be to have proper FEA done before I go
the the trouble of flight testing. The basic concept is sound and I

believe

the fellows in Kelowna have the expertise to do it correctly if

someone was

willing to offer a moose for a test bed.

I was told by MAM that the airfoil on the Moose is a modified Beaver
airfoil - I have not verified this myself, but I understand a slightly
different airfoil was choose to increase cruise speeds - maybe someone at
MAM could provide specific details unless they consider it a technical
secret. I have made my own Cross Section CAD drawing of my wing and it
would not be hard to compare it to other airfoils if someone was

interested.

I have spoken to both pilots of the Cuff installed MOOSE aircraft and my
conclusion based on their test flight descriptions was that the cuffs

that

they have installed are not optimized to the extent that I would put

them on

my MOOSE. There are other factors to consider when looking at the cuff
installation - i.e. wing attachment angle and engine thrust angle, these
also contribute to the performance of the cuff.

I have offered my Moose to the guys in Kelowna but have never followed up
with them because it flys so nice now.

Ryan Mowat.

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