Page 1 of 1

Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Terry Dazey
Greetings Again Rebel Group:

Here we go again. I apologize in advance for another long post, but
hopefully my questions may help someone with fuel line routing questions
in the future as I have now.

I am building a Rebel with the standard firewall and plan to install an
O320-D2A (160 hp). I have flush sealed fuel caps and plan to follow
MAM

Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Wayne G. O'Shea
Sounds "doable". However I am hesitant of low point drains after the valve.
In taildragger position there is no way you'll get the line lower in front
of the valve and if you select fuel off while sitting the water (if you ever
find any) will collect behind the valve..you'll drain clean and get it turn
valve on and have a problem. Older Cessna valves had a plug in the bottom
that can have a quick drain installed for a low point.

I like to bring the lines down the Fus-24's and then angle across the floor
(inside it) towards the center and then head forward and into your
LEFT/RIGHT/BOTH valve. This way your low point will be about mid point in
the angled section of the line if you postion it right and you are
quaranteed to get the H20/crap out on both wheels and floats. You lay out
after your valve is how I do it. Hole right thru the carrythroughs, along
the 5/8 tube..under the pedal shaft..then to the left and up into the
gascolator. Always leave your fuel valves on both if sitting on level ground
and this lets the rear drains look after the line all the way from the
gascolator back to the low point...since there is no way around a rise in
the line to the gascolator when plumbing this way.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Dazey" <dazey@earthlink.net>
To: "Murphy Group" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 2:22 PM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan


[quote]Greetings Again Rebel Group:

Here we go again. I apologize in advance for another long post, but
hopefully my questions may help someone with fuel line routing questions
in the future as I have now.

I am building a Rebel with the standard firewall and plan to install an
O320-D2A (160 hp). I have flush sealed fuel caps and plan to follow
MAM

Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by WALTER KLATT
Basically, Wayne said it all here. I would emphasize, though, the
importance of routing your lines to the centre before going through the
forward part of the fuselage. If they are on the sides under the door s
ills, you risk fuel line rupture in the not so unlikely event of a gear
failure during a taildragger landing mishap. The other good thing with
sealed caps, is that you won't get fuel spillage out of your low win
g tank cap vent, when the fuel flows across the vent tube from the high
tank. And don't ask how I know this.

And the tanks do not feed evenly all the time, at least mine don't.
Also, with them on Both when parked, the tanks will even out nicely
in a short time. I do a lot of partial fuel ups, and usually just fil
l one tank then, because I know they will balance out by themselves if
I have both open. Most of my flying then is with both. It is only on
longer trips, and I'm low on one, that I may shut one side down for
a while.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2005 1:43 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan
Sounds "doable". However I am hesitant of low point drains afte
r
the valve.
In taildragger position there is no way you'll get the line lower
in front
of the valve and if you select fuel off while sitting the water
(if you ever
find any) will collect behind the valve..you'll drain clean and
get it turn
valve on and have a problem. Older Cessna valves had a plug in the
bottomthat can have a quick drain installed for a low point.
I like to bring the lines down the Fus-24's and then angle across
the floor
(inside it) towards the center and then head forward and into your
LEFT/RIGHT/BOTH valve. This way your low point will be about mid
point in
the angled section of the line if you postion it right and you are
quaranteed to get the H20/crap out on both wheels and floats. You
lay out
after your valve is how I do it. Hole right thru the
carrythroughs, along
the 5/8 tube..under the pedal shaft..then to the left and up
into the
gascolator. Always leave your fuel valves on both if sitting on
level ground
and this lets the rear drains look after the line all the way from th
e
gascolator back to the low point...since there is no way around
a
rise in
the line to the gascolator when plumbing this way.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Dazey" <dazey@earthlink.net>
To: "Murphy Group" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 2:22 PM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan
Greetings Again Rebel Group:

Here we go again. I apologize in advance for another long post,
but
hopefully my questions may help someone with fuel line routing
questions> in the future as I have now.
I am building a Rebel with the standard firewall and plan to
install an
O320-D2A (160 hp). I have flush sealed fuel caps and plan to fo
llow
MAM

Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Ted Waltman
You make a good point re the potential drain problem through a cap vent
in the event of an accident.

On the other hand, I originally had the tanks vented on the sides, under
the rear door sills (per plans). Having the vents in this location
prevented me from filling up the fuel tanks, as, when I got to filling
within a inch or so from the top of the cap, fuel would start draining
out of the vent.

I since went to fuel cap vents and am now able to put at least 4 to 6
gallons more per side when filling up. I value this extra fuel safety
margin more than the issue/potential problem with the fuel vent caps.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
WALTER KLATT
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 3:40 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan


Basically, Wayne said it all here. I would emphasize, though, the
importance of routing your lines to the centre before going through the
forward part of the fuselage. If they are on the sides under the door s
ills, you risk fuel line rupture in the not so unlikely event of a gear
failure during a taildragger landing mishap. The other good thing with
sealed caps, is that you won't get fuel spillage out of your low win g
tank cap vent, when the fuel flows across the vent tube from the high
tank. And don't ask how I know this.

And the tanks do not feed evenly all the time, at least mine don't.
Also, with them on Both when parked, the tanks will even out nicely
in a short time. I do a lot of partial fuel ups, and usually just fil l
one tank then, because I know they will balance out by themselves if
I have both open. Most of my flying then is with both. It is only on
longer trips, and I'm low on one, that I may shut one side down for a
while.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
Date: Wednesday, January 5, 2005 1:43 pm
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan
Sounds "doable". However I am hesitant of low point drains afte
r
the valve.
In taildragger position there is no way you'll get the line lower
in front
of the valve and if you select fuel off while sitting the water
(if you ever
find any) will collect behind the valve..you'll drain clean and
get it turn
valve on and have a problem. Older Cessna valves had a plug in the
bottomthat can have a quick drain installed for a low point.
I like to bring the lines down the Fus-24's and then angle across
the floor
(inside it) towards the center and then head forward and into your
LEFT/RIGHT/BOTH valve. This way your low point will be about mid
point in
the angled section of the line if you postion it right and you are
quaranteed to get the H20/crap out on both wheels and floats. You
lay out
after your valve is how I do it. Hole right thru the
carrythroughs, along
the 5/8 tube..under the pedal shaft..then to the left and up
into the
gascolator. Always leave your fuel valves on both if sitting on
level ground
and this lets the rear drains look after the line all the way from th
e
gascolator back to the low point...since there is no way around
a
rise in
the line to the gascolator when plumbing this way.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Dazey" <dazey@earthlink.net>
To: "Murphy Group" <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 2:22 PM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan
Greetings Again Rebel Group:

Here we go again. I apologize in advance for another long post,
but
hopefully my questions may help someone with fuel line routing
questions> in the future as I have now.
I am building a Rebel with the standard firewall and plan to
install an
O320-D2A (160 hp). I have flush sealed fuel caps and plan to fo
llow
MAM

Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Ken
When I was considering an Andair valve, I found all the dimensions on
their website.
Ken

Terry Dazey wrote:
snip

4. Can the Andair selector valve be mounted flush with the inside skin?
(Is it low profile enough?)





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Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Ken
This thread reminds me of the discussion in the archives of extending
the cross tank vent lines to the forward outboard corner of the tanks to
prevent cross flow of fuel with a flat tire or when parked off level.

The cessna below the wing vent may leak less fuel if the aircraft is
upside down and level after the prang but that assumes the wings stay
on, the fuel caps themselves don't leak, and you haven't drilled a hole
in the filler necks as MAM recommends. I have trouble believing that
there is much of a real safety advantage to the cessna venting setup.

Also I presume it is common practice to turn off one of the fuel valves
during refueling if you wish to completely fill both tanks. That stops
the first filled tank from cross flowing fuel before the second tank is
full and lets you get a little more in.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:
You make a good point re the potential drain problem through a cap vent
in the event of an accident.

snip




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Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Ted Waltman
I do make it a practice of turning off both fuel valves when I want to
insure I'm filling up to the max.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Ken
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 7:24 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan


This thread reminds me of the discussion in the archives of extending
the cross tank vent lines to the forward outboard corner of the tanks to

prevent cross flow of fuel with a flat tire or when parked off level.

The cessna below the wing vent may leak less fuel if the aircraft is
upside down and level after the prang but that assumes the wings stay
on, the fuel caps themselves don't leak, and you haven't drilled a hole
in the filler necks as MAM recommends. I have trouble believing that
there is much of a real safety advantage to the cessna venting setup.

Also I presume it is common practice to turn off one of the fuel valves
during refueling if you wish to completely fill both tanks. That stops
the first filled tank from cross flowing fuel before the second tank is
full and lets you get a little more in.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:
You make a good point re the potential drain problem through a cap vent
in the event of an accident.

snip




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Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Wayne G. O'Shea
As Ken touches on...I think guys are wasting way too much time worrying
about "what if" and where fuel will go. Consider the following three
pictures! Tanks..nor lines were comprimised!..and neither occupant died
either! One broken arm and many trips hauling the mess out in pieces.... in
an Aeronica Sedan.... to appease the Alaska National forest warden.

http://www.irishfield.on.ca/gallery/reb ... utter2.jpg

http://www.irishfield.on.ca/gallery/reb ... utter3.jpg

http://www.irishfield.on.ca/gallery/reb ... cutter.jpg

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

This thread reminds me of the discussion in the archives of extending
the cross tank vent lines to the forward outboard corner of the tanks to
prevent cross flow of fuel with a flat tire or when parked off level.

The cessna below the wing vent may leak less fuel if the aircraft is
upside down and level after the prang but that assumes the wings stay
on, the fuel caps themselves don't leak, and you haven't drilled a hole
in the filler necks as MAM recommends. I have trouble believing that
there is much of a real safety advantage to the cessna venting setup.

Also I presume it is common practice to turn off one of the fuel valves
during refueling if you wish to completely fill both tanks. That stops
the first filled tank from cross flowing fuel before the second tank is
full and lets you get a little more in.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:
You make a good point re the potential drain problem through a cap vent
in the event of an accident.

snip




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Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Rick Harper
Wayne ... was that Al Colburn's Rebel ?

Rick
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan


As Ken touches on...I think guys are wasting way too much time
worrying
about "what if" and where fuel will go. Consider the following three
pictures! Tanks..nor lines were comprimised!..and neither occupant
died
either! One broken arm and many trips hauling the mess out in
pieces.... in
an Aeronica Sedan.... to appease the Alaska National forest warden.

http://www.irishfield.on.ca/gallery/reb ... utter2.jpg

http://www.irishfield.on.ca/gallery/reb ... utter3.jpg

http://www.irishfield.on.ca/gallery/reb ... cutter.jpg

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

This thread reminds me of the discussion in the archives of
extending
the cross tank vent lines to the forward outboard corner of the
tanks to
prevent cross flow of fuel with a flat tire or when parked off
level.
The cessna below the wing vent may leak less fuel if the aircraft is
upside down and level after the prang but that assumes the wings
stay
on, the fuel caps themselves don't leak, and you haven't drilled a
hole
in the filler necks as MAM recommends. I have trouble believing that
there is much of a real safety advantage to the cessna venting
setup.
Also I presume it is common practice to turn off one of the fuel
valves
during refueling if you wish to completely fill both tanks. That
stops
the first filled tank from cross flowing fuel before the second tank
is
full and lets you get a little more in.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:
You make a good point re the potential drain problem through a cap
vent
in the event of an accident.

snip




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Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Wayne G. O'Shea
Originally...then it was bought by Charles Dixon from Mississipi and Charles
brought it up here for me to do a months worth of refurb, upgrades and mods
to. It was on 29 x 11 x 10's with Gar-aero Adapters. Charles took it up to
his place above the artic circle in AK and his buddies went "square dancing
with trees" in a National Park in AK.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Harper" <rjwh@optusnet.com.au>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Wayne ... was that Al Colburn's Rebel ?

Rick
541R
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne G. O'Shea
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan


As Ken touches on...I think guys are wasting way too much time
worrying
about "what if" and where fuel will go. Consider the following three
pictures! Tanks..nor lines were comprimised!..and neither occupant
died
either! One broken arm and many trips hauling the mess out in
pieces.... in
an Aeronica Sedan.... to appease the Alaska National forest warden.

http://www.irishfield.on.ca/gallery/reb ... utter2.jpg

http://www.irishfield.on.ca/gallery/reb ... utter3.jpg

http://www.irishfield.on.ca/gallery/reb ... cutter.jpg

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

This thread reminds me of the discussion in the archives of
extending
the cross tank vent lines to the forward outboard corner of the
tanks to
prevent cross flow of fuel with a flat tire or when parked off
level.
The cessna below the wing vent may leak less fuel if the aircraft is
upside down and level after the prang but that assumes the wings
stay
on, the fuel caps themselves don't leak, and you haven't drilled a
hole
in the filler necks as MAM recommends. I have trouble believing that
there is much of a real safety advantage to the cessna venting
setup.
Also I presume it is common practice to turn off one of the fuel
valves
during refueling if you wish to completely fill both tanks. That
stops
the first filled tank from cross flowing fuel before the second tank
is
full and lets you get a little more in.

Ken

Ted Waltman wrote:
You make a good point re the potential drain problem through a cap
vent
in the event of an accident.

snip




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Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Terry Dazey
Thanks to ALL for answering my questions on the fuel system configuration! I
also hope this helps others when it comes time for them to tackle the fuel
system. Great ideas and incentive to return to my chilly garage to drill
more holes =:-)
I like to bring the lines down the Fus-24's and then angle across
the floor
(inside it) towards the center and then head forward and into your
LEFT/RIGHT/BOTH valve. This way your low point will be about mid
point in
the angled section of the line if you postion it right and you are
quaranteed to get the H20/crap out on both wheels and floats.
You
lay out
after your valve is how I do it.
Wayne: Where (and how) do you put the low point drain in YOUR fuel line
configuration? Maybe I am missing something here.

Hole right thru the
carrythroughs, along
the 5/8 tube..under the pedal shaft..then to the left and up into the
gascolator. Always leave your fuel valves on both if sitting on
You mention running the fuel line "UP" to the gascolator. How high above the
fuel line low point can the gascolator be installed? I have seen several
installations where the gascolator hangs down below the firewall. I am
guessing that this idea would keep the gascolator at or near the lowest
point in the system when fuselage is at a level attitude.

As I haven't purchased an engine yet (O320), is there room at the firewall
centerline to mount the gascolator without fear of hitting something on the
engine accessory case etc.?
level ground
and this lets the rear drains look after the line all the way from the
gascolator back to the low point...since there is no way around a
rise in
the line to the gascolator when plumbing this way.
Thanks again for any information!

Terry Dazey
Rebel 662




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Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Wayne G. O'Shea
Terry...sent you a picture of line routing.

Gascolator is a win/no win situation. Inspectors don't want to see the bowl
below the lower edge of the firewall with the arguement that if you lose the
landing gear you'll bust open the bowl. This then makes it impossible for
there next arguement that the gascolator should be the lowest point in the
fuel system. This is why those belly drains are so important..to give you an
out for the low point in the system. Otherwise you would end up with the
fuel lines right up tight under the door sills to get the gascolator to be
the low point.

You do not want the gascolator at the center line. Will get in the way of
mixture cable etc. Needs to be offset to the pilot(left) side of the
firewall...will find you another picture!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Dazey" <dazey@earthlink.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Thanks to ALL for answering my questions on the fuel system configuration!
I
also hope this helps others when it comes time for them to tackle the fuel
system. Great ideas and incentive to return to my chilly garage to drill
more holes =:-)
I like to bring the lines down the Fus-24's and then angle across
the floor
(inside it) towards the center and then head forward and into your
LEFT/RIGHT/BOTH valve. This way your low point will be about mid
point in
the angled section of the line if you postion it right and you are
quaranteed to get the H20/crap out on both wheels and floats.
You
lay out
after your valve is how I do it.
Wayne: Where (and how) do you put the low point drain in YOUR fuel line
configuration? Maybe I am missing something here.

Hole right thru the
carrythroughs, along
the 5/8 tube..under the pedal shaft..then to the left and up into the
gascolator. Always leave your fuel valves on both if sitting on
You mention running the fuel line "UP" to the gascolator. How high above
the
fuel line low point can the gascolator be installed? I have seen several
installations where the gascolator hangs down below the firewall. I am
guessing that this idea would keep the gascolator at or near the lowest
point in the system when fuselage is at a level attitude.

As I haven't purchased an engine yet (O320), is there room at the firewall
centerline to mount the gascolator without fear of hitting something on
the
engine accessory case etc.?
level ground
and this lets the rear drains look after the line all the way from the
gascolator back to the low point...since there is no way around a
rise in
the line to the gascolator when plumbing this way.
Thanks again for any information!

Terry Dazey
Rebel 662




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Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:58 am
by Wayne G. O'Shea
I should also add that you can't comply with the wish for the gascolator to
be totally above the lower edge of the firewall..otherwise the fuel line
from gascolator to engine goes down hill...instead of the required uphill !
:o(

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Terry...sent you a picture of line routing.

Gascolator is a win/no win situation. Inspectors don't want to see the
bowl
below the lower edge of the firewall with the arguement that if you lose
the
landing gear you'll bust open the bowl. This then makes it impossible for
there next arguement that the gascolator should be the lowest point in the
fuel system. This is why those belly drains are so important..to give you
an
out for the low point in the system. Otherwise you would end up with the
fuel lines right up tight under the door sills to get the gascolator to be
the low point.

You do not want the gascolator at the center line. Will get in the way of
mixture cable etc. Needs to be offset to the pilot(left) side of the
firewall...will find you another picture!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Dazey" <dazey@earthlink.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Thanks to ALL for answering my questions on the fuel system
configuration!
I
also hope this helps others when it comes time for them to tackle the
fuel
system. Great ideas and incentive to return to my chilly garage to drill
more holes =:-)
You
Wayne: Where (and how) do you put the low point drain in YOUR fuel line
configuration? Maybe I am missing something here.

Hole right thru the
You mention running the fuel line "UP" to the gascolator. How high above
the
fuel line low point can the gascolator be installed? I have seen several
installations where the gascolator hangs down below the firewall. I am
guessing that this idea would keep the gascolator at or near the lowest
point in the system when fuselage is at a level attitude.

As I haven't purchased an engine yet (O320), is there room at the
firewall
centerline to mount the gascolator without fear of hitting something on
the
engine accessory case etc.?
the
Thanks again for any information!

Terry Dazey
Rebel 662




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Rebel Fuel Plumbing Plan

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:19 pm
by schaumr
Hi All,

I am contemplating routing the fuel lines through my still-open floor. There
appear to be two common approaches out there:

1) route each (left/right) line from the wing down behind the door frame, and
through the various bulkheads directly under the door, finally exiting through
the pre-drilled gusset holes in the FUS-5 carrythroughs.

2) (a la Wayne) Each tank line runs down the side (behind the door frame)
directly across towards the center of the aircraft to a low-point drain (1
each). Both lines then run up the center to two valves in the floor just aft of
the carrythroughs, then join to form a single line which travels through both
FUS-5 carrythroughs near the center of the aircraft, which then continues on
to the firewall.

Option #2 "seems" easier, as it has nice 90 degree insertions and straight
runs through all the floor channels, (even though it appears to contradict
some recent responses to a question I had earlier this year on drilling through
the FUS-5s).

I would propose to "simplify" option #2, by retaining the on/off fuel valves
near the wing root (as per MAM), then bringing each line to the center low-
point with a drain and combine them into one. From there, I'd do a straight
shot all the way to the firewall, under the floor (and through the FUS5s). In
this way, only one inspection port in the floor would be necessary.

How would you protect the fuel line as it crosses the
carrythroughs....Grommets...tubing? Other
thoughts/recommendations/warnings?

Finally, if I were to go through the pre-drilled gusset holes on the sides, can
anyone comment on how this is done while minimizing hidden AN
connections/fittings?

Much obliged,

Rob



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