The Murphy Builders Site

Yes, there was a problem with clearance of the V and the rear fin post after
the .063 spar caps where installed for the Moose upgrades. Lucky me was the
guy that found this out...after closing the elevator for the third time. Was
decided that if you trim the elevator skin off at the existing holes and
move the ribs outboard all would be well. MAM retooled to open the V in a
larger angle to get a similar clearance. I don't remember the measurements
to determine if you have an old elevator skin or a new one. Dimensions are
in the archives somewhere...where I gave the inner width and outer width so
you know if you already have a wider one or a newer one.

If you can't find the dimensions in the next day or so let me know and I
will open up the marine container mine is in and measure the widths again.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "pollock" <lbpollock@sympatico.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 4:19 PM
Subject: elevator

I am ready to rivett the elevator together with the MAM mod ,was there a
problem with clearences with the V traveling near the fin??? As well the
stabilizer and fin spar had mod doublers to the spars , what do you guys
feel that maybe the elevator would required beefed up?? it would be the
time to do it!!



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I am pretty sure I have the new style.....well at least I used wayne's
measurements last time and didn't change mine. I have kit #222 and the
measurements are

14 1/4 at the opening
3 3/4 at the back
16 1/2 deep

One thing that messed me up on the elevator was installing the doublers as
per the book moves those ribs out the thickness of the doubler. That is only on
half the ribs. This will cause tension in the skin as well as moving all the
extra to the other side. When you turn it over and try to cleco the guide
holes it makes a big bubble in the skin. Brian said the fast build kits have
the ribs installed under the doublers and turned the other direction from the
page in the manual.

So don't follow the manual and you will be fine.

Brad




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Hi Brad, In the last sentence or next to last actually, you wrote the ribs
installed under doublers and turned the other direction ( are you changing
the rib flange direction is that what you are saying) I don't want to sound
stupid here but I hate redoing things if I can ask questions and do it right
the first time. I was trying to figure out how to get this skin to lay right
if you do it by the book but it just doesn't work. and the 16 1/2 deep is
that straight back or is it measured on an angle??? If a person has the
moose kit are the .063 doublers on the fin still necessary or only if you
are building a super rebel to be a MOOSE??? Any help would be appreciated,
I thought I knew what I was doing till I got to asking to many questions .
Thanks Dale----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: elevator MOOSE

I am pretty sure I have the new style.....well at least I used wayne's
measurements last time and didn't change mine. I have kit #222 and the
measurements are

14 1/4 at the opening
3 3/4 at the back
16 1/2 deep

One thing that messed me up on the elevator was installing the doublers as
per the book moves those ribs out the thickness of the doubler. That is

only on

half the ribs. This will cause tension in the skin as well as moving all

the

extra to the other side. When you turn it over and try to cleco the guide
holes it makes a big bubble in the skin. Brian said the fast build kits

have

the ribs installed under the doublers and turned the other direction from

the

page in the manual.

So don't follow the manual and you will be fine.

Brad




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Dale...the .063 spar caps are for the Moose...the SR had shorter .032 spar
caps on the rear fin post. The depth won't change on either versions of
elevator skins.... so don't worry about it. If your opening width dimensions
= Brads then you are good to go. If they are less than his then you need to
trim off to the existing prepunched holes to get the clearance.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Fultz" <dfultz@countryilink.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: elevator MOOSE

Hi Brad, In the last sentence or next to last actually, you wrote the

ribs

installed under doublers and turned the other direction ( are you changing
the rib flange direction is that what you are saying) I don't want to

sound

stupid here but I hate redoing things if I can ask questions and do it

right

the first time. I was trying to figure out how to get this skin to lay

right

if you do it by the book but it just doesn't work. and the 16 1/2 deep is
that straight back or is it measured on an angle??? If a person has the
moose kit are the .063 doublers on the fin still necessary or only if you
are building a super rebel to be a MOOSE??? Any help would be

appreciated,

I thought I knew what I was doing till I got to asking to many questions .
Thanks Dale----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: elevator MOOSE

I am pretty sure I have the new style.....well at least I used wayne's
measurements last time and didn't change mine. I have kit #222 and the
measurements are

14 1/4 at the opening
3 3/4 at the back
16 1/2 deep

One thing that messed me up on the elevator was installing the doublers

as

per the book moves those ribs out the thickness of the doubler. That is

only on

half the ribs. This will cause tension in the skin as well as moving

all

the

extra to the other side. When you turn it over and try to cleco the

guide

holes it makes a big bubble in the skin. Brian said the fast build kits

have

the ribs installed under the doublers and turned the other direction

from

the

page in the manual.

So don't follow the manual and you will be fine.

Brad




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for the doublers...... I think we are all building super rebels and turning
them into a moose. That's what the manual is written for anyway, the only
advantage we have starting new is that we don't have to take things apart to get
started.

16 1/2 is straight back

The rib flange direction is changed to allow the doubler to sit in the slot
of the ribs to keep them inline with the punched holes. That is what I was
told by MAM...that is how they are doing the fastbuilds, at least that is what I
was told. If someone with a fastbuild kit could verify that.............. I
built mine according to the book I just cleco'd the first row of holes and
didn't use the ribs that were over the doublers, you have to cheat on the
"alignment" hole on all those ribs but everything else works. clear as mud????

It would be nice if someone with a fastbuild could verify the flange
direction but it's too late to change mine without a new elevator kit.

SeeYa
Brad
SR222




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Thanks for the replies, My tail kit is from 1997 and the measurement at the
back is 14 3/16 is this sufficient??? I guess when my EAA chapter messed
me around it was a blessing in disguise because all I had done was my frame
work before so now I'm trying to make sure everything is right before I redo
this to the MOOSE application. I phoned MAM before but no one could give me
a measurement on the elevator. I seen in Wayne's pictures he has an
inspection hole @ the tailcone section should everyone add this or is it not
necessary??? Thanks Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: elevator MOOSE

for the doublers...... I think we are all building super rebels and

turning

them into a moose. That's what the manual is written for anyway, the only
advantage we have starting new is that we don't have to take things apart

to get

started.

16 1/2 is straight back

The rib flange direction is changed to allow the doubler to sit in the

slot

of the ribs to keep them inline with the punched holes. That is what I was
told by MAM...that is how they are doing the fastbuilds, at least that is

what I

was told. If someone with a fastbuild kit could verify that..............

I

built mine according to the book I just cleco'd the first row of holes

and

didn't use the ribs that were over the doublers, you have to cheat on the
"alignment" hole on all those ribs but everything else works. clear as

mud????

It would be nice if someone with a fastbuild could verify the flange
direction but it's too late to change mine without a new elevator kit.

SeeYa
Brad
SR222




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Not my picture...no holes in mine. That is Al's that he cut open to work on
his tailspring gussets. Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Fultz" <dfultz@countryilink.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: elevator MOOSE

Thanks for the replies, My tail kit is from 1997 and the measurement at

the

back is 14 3/16 is this sufficient??? I guess when my EAA chapter messed
me around it was a blessing in disguise because all I had done was my

frame

work before so now I'm trying to make sure everything is right before I

redo

this to the MOOSE application. I phoned MAM before but no one could give

me

a measurement on the elevator. I seen in Wayne's pictures he has an
inspection hole @ the tailcone section should everyone add this or is it

not

necessary??? Thanks Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: elevator MOOSE

for the doublers...... I think we are all building super rebels and

turning

them into a moose. That's what the manual is written for anyway, the

only

advantage we have starting new is that we don't have to take things

apart

to get

started.

16 1/2 is straight back

The rib flange direction is changed to allow the doubler to sit in the

slot

of the ribs to keep them inline with the punched holes. That is what I

was

told by MAM...that is how they are doing the fastbuilds, at least that

is

what I

was told. If someone with a fastbuild kit could verify

that..............

I

built mine according to the book I just cleco'd the first row of holes

and

didn't use the ribs that were over the doublers, you have to cheat on

the

"alignment" hole on all those ribs but everything else works. clear as

mud????

It would be nice if someone with a fastbuild could verify the flange
direction but it's too late to change mine without a new elevator kit.

SeeYa
Brad
SR222




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7 year old kit and you have a similar measurement as Ben !! HMMMMMM. Let me
measure what I have in the morning.... so I can disappoint you both (but
hopefully not!)

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Fultz" <dfultz@countryilink.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: elevator MOOSE

Thanks for the replies, My tail kit is from 1997 and the measurement at

the

back is 14 3/16 is this sufficient??? I guess when my EAA chapter messed
me around it was a blessing in disguise because all I had done was my

frame

work before so now I'm trying to make sure everything is right before I

redo

this to the MOOSE application. I phoned MAM before but no one could give

me

a measurement on the elevator. I seen in Wayne's pictures he has an
inspection hole @ the tailcone section should everyone add this or is it

not

necessary??? Thanks Dale
----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: elevator MOOSE

for the doublers...... I think we are all building super rebels and

turning

them into a moose. That's what the manual is written for anyway, the

only

advantage we have starting new is that we don't have to take things

apart

to get

started.

16 1/2 is straight back

The rib flange direction is changed to allow the doubler to sit in the

slot

of the ribs to keep them inline with the punched holes. That is what I

was

told by MAM...that is how they are doing the fastbuilds, at least that

is

what I

was told. If someone with a fastbuild kit could verify

that..............

I

built mine according to the book I just cleco'd the first row of holes

and

didn't use the ribs that were over the doublers, you have to cheat on

the

"alignment" hole on all those ribs but everything else works. clear as

mud????

It would be nice if someone with a fastbuild could verify the flange
direction but it's too late to change mine without a new elevator kit.

SeeYa
Brad
SR222




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Okay Guys! Brad has the newer "V" after MAM changed the tooling set up. Dale
you probably have the older one...even though you both have about 14 1/4" on
the aft opening width. I'm basing that "guess" on the fact that you have a
1997 kit Dale and I advised Brian Godden of this problem March 19, 2002 and
have attached the email correspondence below, from after we talked about it,
(and also note that no SB was ever published on this.... so bet there will
be a lot of angry individuals out there before they get their Moose flying!)

The important dimension here is the fwd opening width. It was originally
approximately 3 inches. If you have one that is 3 inches you need to trim
the v open. The only clean way to do this is to just make it an even trim
along the existing rivet holes. On the newer tooling MAM left the aft
dimension the same and widened the fwd dimension to 3 3/4" as Brad has
shown...and thus a different opening angle. Trimming your old one out will
give you a wider aft dimension when you are done...but so what..more rudder
clearance when you've got a pedal to the floor fighting the x wind !

Suggest that MAM posts this up on the SR/Moose Tech bulletin "to check the
Elevator V opening to have the 14 1/4" x 3 3/4" dimensions and if you have
an older version that has only 3" opening width at the forward end of the
V....then you need to trim the V back to remove the prepunched holes to get
sufficient clearance around the rear fin post. Best done before you start
building the elevator (or closing it for the third time)...but anytime
before you try airframe assembly would be a good idea ! :o((

Cheers,
Wayne
................................................

email to Brian Godden 19/03/2002<<

Hi Brian, spent that hour (4 actually) f$*#%ng around with the
elevator/stab/fin post fitting to see what I have for clearance. NONE! Gave
up even trying to get the hinge bolts in. That center hinge hole looks like
the greatest place to try and get a bolt, let alone the nut and cotter!

I guess the fact that the stab hinges are .080 further back, after the 3500
upgrade, and the fin spar caps are now a total thickness of 1/8 per side (as
opposed to 1/16 on the 2500) that took all the clearance away. It must have
been really tight to start with though. I guess the prototype you did the
changes too must have been built a little different than production as mine
is serial 17 and I'm in the same pickle as your QB.

I see a couple options for a "fix".
1/ The way you hacked it out and reinforced the back of the fin.
2/ Move the stab attach brackets/bulkheads ahead by 1/4 to 5/16" in future
kits
3/ Why not just trim the elevator skins back 1/2" to cut off clean at the
existing rivet holes in the skin and EL451? doubler and then move the ribs
outboard (away from the center) that 1/2" on each side to give the clearance
instead of changing any instructions for the spar caps/ fin post etc. For
guys that haven't done the elevator mod yet would be easiest and even with
the elevator done I think I might take that route and get the bonus of a
little more rudder availability. After all the rivets drilled out to date,
not a big deal to drill the cable horn "strap off" and the two ribs, trim
back the skin 1/2" and reassemble. Don't think the 1/2" missing in the
flange overlaps will hurt much and the rivet holes will have enough edge
distance between the old and the new to be alright.

I have to wonder how others that are flying have got enough clearance in
this area. I don't know if there are any 3500's flying yet, but the 2500
would have had some really close clearance as well and my first thought is
someone that didn't know the consequences may have mounted the stab fittings
in front of the double pickups (instead of between) to move the whole
assembly forward 3/16". This would put the attach bolts in singular shear
instead of the proper double shear when in between the double brackets. I
hope I'm wrong, but might be worth a Technical Advisor letter to save MAM's
bacon if someone did do it.

Let me know how you make out with all this as I am going to leave the SR
alone for now and get on with the Rebel repairs.

Cheers,
Wayne
................................................

----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: elevator MOOSE

I am pretty sure I have the new style.....well at least I used wayne's
measurements last time and didn't change mine. I have kit #222 and the
measurements are

14 1/4 at the opening
3 3/4 at the back
16 1/2 deep

One thing that messed me up on the elevator was installing the doublers as
per the book moves those ribs out the thickness of the doubler. That is

only on

half the ribs. This will cause tension in the skin as well as moving all

the

extra to the other side. When you turn it over and try to cleco the guide
holes it makes a big bubble in the skin. Brian said the fast build kits

have

the ribs installed under the doublers and turned the other direction from

the

page in the manual.

So don't follow the manual and you will be fine.

Brad




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