Flaperons - Rebel

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Joel...I cheated a bit and actually have about 23* down (static on the
ground) and 12* negative ( and yes I can use all of it when light). The idea
was to keep all the flap you can get...so why would I intentionally make it
less. I've been bad and had them fully deployed at 100 MPH (takes a heck of
a pull on the handle!).... but mine are alum covered so a tad bit stronger
than 99% out there covered in fabric.......and I haven't blown them off YET!
Mine still flex up somewhat in flight...but nothing near like the standard
manual installation.

Howard's CYP has electric flaps. It's a cars seat mover unit mounted into
the side panel, below the rear window, with the bellcrank mounted right to
it so it goes straight up and down. That gets rid of the slight rotating
movement of the mixer arm that changes stick center as you put flaps on in
most Rebels. I personally hate electric flaps...but if you like them this
gives absolutely no flex and the absolute most positive flap movement you
can get. There is still flap lost from the torque tube twist, horns
flexing...rod end slop, attach bolt flex and the like..but not near the loss
of the push/flex in the teleflex cable.

Other things I have found that cause a huge loss of flap is the mixer arm
being assembled with too much slop in it, too much clearance in the guides
that let it tip and the bellcrank spaced out to far on the arm causing it to
twist back and forth. All of these movements cause loss of flap when
airloaded.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@sdf.lonestar.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 1:24 PM
Subject: Re: Skis on a Rebel / WD prop pitch

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: Skis on a Rebel / WD prop pitch

Flaps sound normal for the Rebel (unless of course you have a full
mechanical linkage like I do!).

Hi Wayne,
On your mechanical linkage setup, did you still use the flap angle

specified

in the manual or did you reduce it a bit? (since the cable setup reduces
the angle with air loads)
I'm playing around with the idea of tossing the cable in favor of a
mechanical linkage - maybe electric. I can see where the cable would have
slop in it - you're pushing on the cable to lower the flaps. That would

be

like trying to push a rope through a tube and expecting to do some work on
the other end wouldn't it?

Joel

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[Joel Jacobs]

Wayne,
What don't you like about electric flaps? I've never flown an airplane with
electric flaps so I'm just curious. In fact most airplanes I've flown -
Citabria, Luscombe and Champ - have no flaps at all and aside from the
ability to go reflex I don't see much benefit. Well, a hard slip can
sometimes give your passengers a case of the RADS. (Rapid And Determined
Swallowing;). I did see Curts setup a few years back at MERFI and it looked
pretty trick. I'm sure it was lighter than the cable, handle and brackets
that it replaced. Here is a picture of how he did it..
http://joel.dyndns.org/rebel/gallery/unfiled/n97mr4_001

Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 5:46 PM
Subject: Flaperons - Rebel

I personally hate electric flaps...but if you like them this
gives absolutely no flex and the absolute most positive flap movement you
can get.

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

No Flaps might be fun in a J3 when out playing around the patch...but you're
sure going to want them to help slow you down a bit going into a narrow lake
channel.....sure don't want to be side slipping to spot land on floats.

I've had a dislike for Electric flaps right from the days of training in a
C172. Nudging the flap switch..staring at the indicator trying to get that
same flap for each landing (all requiring head down and not looking where
you are going!!!). Nothing pleased me more than when I bought by 1958 C182
with a manual johnson bar flap handle. Grab and pull....same flap position
and landing every time. This is a big reason people prefer C185's over 206's
for float planes. Manual vs Electric flaps.

To each his own on it. I know many here, like Curt, or more than happy with
their electric flaps and have a nice indicator system to put them where they
want them. I just have a personal perference for reaching for a handle and
without looking at anything knowing that when it goes click I have 8*
another pull I have 16* and one more I have 23*. No looking, no
guessing...and no worry about a fuse blowing, motor seizing etc...let alone
having to take my eyes off the landing spot to check where the flap
indicator is. I know that with relays/switches/etc you can make it a "push
and auto locate" system...but now you are adding more complexity and
possible failures.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@sdf.lonestar.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: Flaperons - Rebel

Wayne,
What don't you like about electric flaps? I've never flown an airplane

with

electric flaps so I'm just curious. In fact most airplanes I've flown -
Citabria, Luscombe and Champ - have no flaps at all and aside from the
ability to go reflex I don't see much benefit. Well, a hard slip can
sometimes give your passengers a case of the RADS. (Rapid And Determined
Swallowing;). I did see Curts setup a few years back at MERFI and it

looked

pretty trick. I'm sure it was lighter than the cable, handle and brackets
that it replaced. Here is a picture of how he did it..
http://joel.dyndns.org/rebel/gallery/unfiled/n97mr4_001

Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 5:46 PM
Subject: Flaperons - Rebel

I personally hate electric flaps...but if you like them this
gives absolutely no flex and the absolute most positive flap movement

you

can get.

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[Rebflyer]

Hi all,
Guess I'll kick in my .02 on the electric flap flap.
Yup, I like mine. I also hve many hrs in johnson bar flap airplanes
including a 15 hr trip in a C-175 from Michigan to Nevada two weeks ago. Tail wind
all the way going west, but that's another story!!
I like those too.
What I was looking for was a positive, LIGHT, system. It does weigh less
than the flap arm, cable and brackets. Ounces. I'd do better to eat a light
meal before going flying.
I am not the lever, bell crank genius that Wayne is. Make no mistake,
this is meant entirely as a compliment. I have seen his setup and I think it is
very clever.
What mine does is give me 23deg. down, 12 deg reflex, and it has a neutral
point so that when coming off the flaps it will not go into reflex. I have
to touch an override button to get it up into reflex.
As for the in between points, I land with all flaps and take off with all
flaps. So the in between flaps from cross wind to down wind down wind to base
and to final are a simple tap on the switch and the final is flown with full
flaps. I havn't looked at my indicator during approach in a long time. The
flap switch is right off the throttle where I don't even have to take my hand
off the throttle to touch the flap switch. Simple ergonomics. I've never
popped a breaker either from early deployment, and the planetary gear motor system
I used cannot over extend or over retract. Now about the service side of
things. With a couple hundred landings now, I am begining to see a little slop
in the drive mechanisim. It will be looked at very close during the next
inspection. I'm sure Waynes system is as tight as the day he put it in, with
just a touch of lube to keep it that way. Along with that his motor will
never quit :)
So again, yes I like mine. Yes I'd do it again. Recomend it? It's your
choise, that's the fun of Experimenting!!! Curt N97MR





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[brad]

Curt,

Your setup sounds interesting.

Do you have any pictures of your flap motor? What motor did you use.

I'm assuming that you are using limit switches to control length of travel
and for your indicator. Could you expand on the actual workings.

Brad (R195)
bhewlett@omni-techsys.com




On 11/22/2004 3:43 PM, REBFLYER@AOL.COM wrote to REBEL-BUILDERS:

-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v6.0.451.3)
-> for rebel-builders@dcsol.com; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:43:52 -0900
-> Received: from imo-m24.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.5]) EHLO=imo-m24.mx.aol.com
-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v6.0.451.3) with SMTP
-> id 77299281; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:43:49 -0900
-> Received: from Rebflyer@aol.com
-> by imo-m24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id b.100.7261c2a (18555)
-> for <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>; Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:43:39 -0500 (EST)
-> From: Rebflyer@aol.com
-> Message-ID: <100.7261c2a.2ed3e1bb@aol.com>
-> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:43:39 EST
-> Subject: Re: Flaperons - Rebel
-> To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> X-Orig-MIME-Version: 1.0
-> X-Orig-Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------------------
-------1101170619"
-> X-Mailer: 9.0 for Windows sub 5000
-> X-Antivirus-Remover: Message filtered with wsAV v2.0.0 Build 001
->
-> Hi all,
-> Guess I'll kick in my .02 on the electric flap flap.
-> Yup, I like mine. I also hve many hrs in johnson bar flap airplanes
-> including a 15 hr trip in a C-175 from Michigan to Nevada two weeks ago.
Tail wind
-> all the way going west, but that's another story!!
-> I like those too.
-> What I was looking for was a positive, LIGHT, system. It does weigh less
-> than the flap arm, cable and brackets. Ounces. I'd do better to eat a
light
-> meal before going flying.
-> I am not the lever, bell crank genius that Wayne is. Make no mistake,
-> this is meant entirely as a compliment. I have seen his setup and I think
it is
-> very clever.
-> What mine does is give me 23deg. down, 12 deg reflex, and it has a
neutral
-> point so that when coming off the flaps it will not go into reflex. I have
-> to touch an override button to get it up into reflex.
-> As for the in between points, I land with all flaps and take off with
all
-> flaps. So the in between flaps from cross wind to down wind down wind to
base
-> and to final are a simple tap on the switch and the final is flown with
full
-> flaps. I havn't looked at my indicator during approach in a long time. The
-> flap switch is right off the throttle where I don't even have to take my
hand
-> off the throttle to touch the flap switch. Simple ergonomics. I've never
-> popped a breaker either from early deployment, and the planetary gear
motor system
-> I used cannot over extend or over retract. Now about the service side
of
-> things. With a couple hundred landings now, I am begining to see a little
slop
-> in the drive mechanisim. It will be looked at very close during the next
-> inspection. I'm sure Waynes system is as tight as the day he put it in,
with
-> just a touch of lube to keep it that way. Along with that his motor will
-> never quit :)
-> So again, yes I like mine. Yes I'd do it again. Recomend it? It's your
-> choise, that's the fun of Experimenting!!! Curt N97MR
->
->





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[Joel Jacobs]

Thanks for the insights guys - it gives me alot to think about. You both
have convicing arguments reguarding your choices. Now I have to make my
choice. Obviously both ways work if done well. I liked Curts setup because
it looked very simple and wouldn't add months to my build time. When I
priced the actuator Curt used it was a bit pricey at around $250. I
wouldn't mind a manual linkage that was more rigid than the cable but I'm
not sure how to go about it. I've flown a Cherokee with manual flaps that
were nice. It was a lever between the seats. You pressed a button on the
end and gave a pull to the next indent. Is that what you are refering to as
a 'Johnson bar'? Have you ever thought about offering plans or kits for
your system?
Joel

P.S. By the name I might assume the Johnson bar would be mounted between my
legs somehow;)




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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Joel, yes... "johnson bar" refers to a flap handle that usually has a push
button on the end....and maybe if I stayed off this computer I'd have time
to build flap mechanism kits...but then again like most things in the
homebuilt world nobody would buy it...only want pictures and details to make
their own. Other problem is since every airplane out there has been
assembled somewhat differently than the others it makes a universal fitting
item unlikely. As for plans...I have some chicken scatches on arm lengths,
throw angles etc to get the right movement and drawings tucked away in a
locked file cabinet (and that's where they'll stay) for my use when a
customer wants a system installed into his/her machine. None of it's rocket
science and you don't have to be a " bell crank genius " as Curt stated in
his email. It can all be figured out with a ruler, protactor etc by
simulating the movements on paper.

Cheers,
Wayne

P.S. Not touching the where/who/why on mounting the Johnson bar...as there
are females on this list!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@sdf.lonestar.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Flaperons - Rebel

Thanks for the insights guys - it gives me alot to think about. You both
have convicing arguments reguarding your choices. Now I have to make my
choice. Obviously both ways work if done well. I liked Curts setup

because

it looked very simple and wouldn't add months to my build time. When I
priced the actuator Curt used it was a bit pricey at around $250. I
wouldn't mind a manual linkage that was more rigid than the cable but I'm
not sure how to go about it. I've flown a Cherokee with manual flaps that
were nice. It was a lever between the seats. You pressed a button on the
end and gave a pull to the next indent. Is that what you are refering to

as

a 'Johnson bar'? Have you ever thought about offering plans or kits for
your system?
Joel

P.S. By the name I might assume the Johnson bar would be mounted between

my

legs somehow;)




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[Ken]

One way to take out some of the flex and cable slop might be to use a
spring to lift the mixer arm up. Now attach the end of the teleflex to a
piece of steel cable, run it down around a pulley and back up to the
mixer arm (or the mixer bolt if possible). Now the cable is in tension
to pull the flaps down.

I extended the 1/8" plate low enough to attach such a pulley in the
future. When I did it I was considering two cables in a push pull
arangement with an overhead handle. Due to time and weight I decided to
go with the factory setup for now. However I think that one cable in
tension and a spring might be worth trying. The thought of a return
spring there in turbulence doesn't bother me anymore as it would likely
still be stiffer than the factory setup anyway.

Ken

Joel Jacobs wrote:

Thanks for the insights guys - it gives me alot to think about. You both
have convicing arguments reguarding your choices. Now I have to make my
choice. Obviously both ways work if done well. I liked Curts setup because
it looked very simple and wouldn't add months to my build time. When I
priced the actuator Curt used it was a bit pricey at around $250. I
wouldn't mind a manual linkage that was more rigid than the cable but I'm
not sure how to go about it. I've flown a Cherokee with manual flaps that
were nice. It was a lever between the seats. You pressed a button on the
end and gave a pull to the next indent. Is that what you are refering to as
a 'Johnson bar'? Have you ever thought about offering plans or kits for
your system?
Joel

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[Jones, Michael]

KEN, YOUR GOING WITH FACTORY SETUP, i am surprised thats not like you, guess
your getting little tired of always building and building like me, yuck yuck

mike#007

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken [mailto:klehman@albedo.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 1:49 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Flaperons - Rebel


One way to take out some of the flex and cable slop might be to use a
spring to lift the mixer arm up. Now attach the end of the teleflex to a
piece of steel cable, run it down around a pulley and back up to the
mixer arm (or the mixer bolt if possible). Now the cable is in tension
to pull the flaps down.

I extended the 1/8" plate low enough to attach such a pulley in the
future. When I did it I was considering two cables in a push pull
arangement with an overhead handle. Due to time and weight I decided to
go with the factory setup for now. However I think that one cable in
tension and a spring might be worth trying. The thought of a return
spring there in turbulence doesn't bother me anymore as it would likely
still be stiffer than the factory setup anyway.

Ken

Joel Jacobs wrote:

Thanks for the insights guys - it gives me alot to think about. You both
have convicing arguments reguarding your choices. Now I have to make my
choice. Obviously both ways work if done well. I liked Curts setup

because

it looked very simple and wouldn't add months to my build time. When I
priced the actuator Curt used it was a bit pricey at around $250. I
wouldn't mind a manual linkage that was more rigid than the cable but I'm
not sure how to go about it. I've flown a Cherokee with manual flaps that
were nice. It was a lever between the seats. You pressed a button on the
end and gave a pull to the next indent. Is that what you are refering to

as

a 'Johnson bar'? Have you ever thought about offering plans or kits for
your system?
Joel

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Joel !

I know you like to tinker, and you have a beautiful shop, so you might
try both methods !

My advice to others, though, is "Just build it by the book" !! The Rebel
flapperon system is different from every other airplane out there - as the
Rebel is different from everything else. The biggest mistake I see repeated
often is to try to make the Rebel into a Cessna or Citabria or whatever !!!

If you wanted one of those aircraft, you should have bought one ! You have
a Rebel, so just build it and learn to FLT IT LIKE a Rebel - DO NOT try to fly
it like a Cessna !!! Almost all of the mush-ups I've seen come from trying
to apply old training to a different situation, without getting any guidance !

There is slop in the Rebel flapperon system - don't worry about it, it
works just fine ! As Wayne has said, look at it as "auto-deploying" flap -
it lowers more as the speed decreases ! ;-) :-)

Don't worry about how the flapperons work - don't look out the window !
Just treat them as any other flap system, with a different application to the
Rebel - I always take off AND land with full flapperon - that's the way they
are designed to be used on the Rebel !! They are mainly "camber changing"
flaps that re-configure the whole airfoil to increase or decrease lift ---
NOT drag flaps, like Cessnas !

The standard system is light weight, easy to build, and easy to operate -
if you make a dog-leg flap handle (as the drawing in the archives), using the
flapperons is a 2 finger operation, and no big deal !! Just be careful when
building to eliminate extra play wherever you can, and you will enjoy many
years of fun flying !!! :-)

Wow ! Down off the soap box, and off to take some vitamin B !!
Sorry - got a bit wound up there ! Just hit a hot button I guess ....

.............bobp

-------------------------------orig.-------------------------
On Tuesday 23 November 2004 12:02 pm, Joel Jacobs wrote:

Thanks for the insights guys - it gives me alot to think about. You both
have convicing arguments reguarding your choices. Now I have to make my
choice. Obviously both ways work if done well. I liked Curts setup
because it looked very simple and wouldn't add months to my build time.
When I priced the actuator Curt used it was a bit pricey at around $250. I
wouldn't mind a manual linkage that was more rigid than the cable but I'm
not sure how to go about it. I've flown a Cherokee with manual flaps that
were nice. It was a lever between the seats. You pressed a button on the
end and gave a pull to the next indent. Is that what you are refering to
as a 'Johnson bar'? Have you ever thought about offering plans or kits for
your system?
Joel

P.S. By the name I might assume the Johnson bar would be mounted between my
legs somehow;)




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[Scott Aldrich]

Cheers,
Wayne

P.S. Not touching the where/who/why on mounting the Johnson bar...as there
are females on this list!

Another reason not to touch, you may go blind ;) Actually it is probably
some sort of discrimination to omit a good joke due to gender on the list.

Scott

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@sdf.lonestar.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: Flaperons - Rebel

Thanks for the insights guys - it gives me alot to think about. You

both

have convicing arguments reguarding your choices. Now I have to make my
choice. Obviously both ways work if done well. I liked Curts setup

because

it looked very simple and wouldn't add months to my build time. When I
priced the actuator Curt used it was a bit pricey at around $250. I
wouldn't mind a manual linkage that was more rigid than the cable but

I'm

not sure how to go about it. I've flown a Cherokee with manual flaps

that

were nice. It was a lever between the seats. You pressed a button on

the

end and gave a pull to the next indent. Is that what you are refering

to
as

a 'Johnson bar'? Have you ever thought about offering plans or kits for
your system?
Joel

P.S. By the name I might assume the Johnson bar would be mounted between

my

legs somehow;)




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[Robert and Olga Johnson]

I am in full agreement with Bob P. I built Rebel 652 pretty much by the
book and never regretted a minute of it in over 200 hrs flying in three
years. I liked the flap arrangement and its ability to deal with the pilot
forgetting to retract after an overshoot. I did notice on the replies that a
lot of you mentioned using full flap on take-off. I had never done this as I
found the take off run was short enough with the O320. The Rebel is a great
airplane - JUST THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED. Bob J (formerly Rebel"652")




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[Drew Dalgleish]

At 09:30 PM 11/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:

I am in full agreement with Bob P. I built Rebel 652 pretty much by the
book and never regretted a minute of it in over 200 hrs flying in three
years. I liked the flap arrangement and its ability to deal with the pilot
forgetting to retract after an overshoot. I did notice on the replies that a
lot of you mentioned using full flap on take-off. I had never done this as I
found the take off run was short enough with the O320. The Rebel is a great
airplane - JUST THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED. Bob J (formerly Rebel"652")

I'm not strong enough to get the pin into the last hole when I'm flying and
if I do it on the ground it is very tough to get out as well so I never use
full flaps for landing and usually use no flaps for take off. I'm sure it
would work if I made a new dog leg flap handle instead of the short by the
book one but I've never really felt that more flap is neccessary. In a full
forward slip my plane drops almost 2000fpm how much faster could you
possibly need to get down as long as you're not on fire ;)
Drew





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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Thing is...it's not how fast you want to come down in FPM..it's how slow you
want to come down under control in MPH.

However..compared to anything else out there in it's weight class... other
than maybe a Northstar (so slow can be landed gear down on amphibs without
flipping!!) or a SC with vortex generators, nothing lands as slow as a Rebel
on floats anyhow in any flap configuration...so it really doesn't matter how
much flap you have IF you are happy with the way it performs for you.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2004 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Flaperons - Rebel

At 09:30 PM 11/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:

I am in full agreement with Bob P. I built Rebel 652 pretty much by the
book and never regretted a minute of it in over 200 hrs flying in three
years. I liked the flap arrangement and its ability to deal with the

pilot

forgetting to retract after an overshoot. I did notice on the replies

that a

lot of you mentioned using full flap on take-off. I had never done this

as I

found the take off run was short enough with the O320. The Rebel is a

great

airplane - JUST THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED. Bob J (formerly Rebel"652")

I'm not strong enough to get the pin into the last hole when I'm flying

and

if I do it on the ground it is very tough to get out as well so I never

use

full flaps for landing and usually use no flaps for take off. I'm sure it
would work if I made a new dog leg flap handle instead of the short by the
book one but I've never really felt that more flap is neccessary. In a

full

forward slip my plane drops almost 2000fpm how much faster could you
possibly need to get down as long as you're not on fire ;)
Drew





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[Ken]

I believe Bob J. actually did modify the flap handle with a simple nifty
thumb or finger actuated latch instead of the factory setup...
;)
Ken

Drew Dalgleish wrote:

At 09:30 PM 11/23/2004 -0500, you wrote:

I am in full agreement with Bob P. I built Rebel 652 pretty much by the
book and never regretted a minute of it in over 200 hrs flying in three
years. I liked the flap arrangement and its ability to deal with the pilot
forgetting to retract after an overshoot. I did notice on the replies that a
lot of you mentioned using full flap on take-off. I had never done this as I
found the take off run was short enough with the O320. The Rebel is a great
airplane - JUST THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED. Bob J (formerly Rebel"652")

I'm not strong enough to get the pin into the last hole when I'm flying and
if I do it on the ground it is very tough to get out as well so I never use
full flaps for landing and usually use no flaps for take off. I'm sure it
would work if I made a new dog leg flap handle instead of the short by the
book one but I've never really felt that more flap is neccessary. In a full
forward slip my plane drops almost 2000fpm how much faster could you
possibly need to get down as long as you're not on fire ;)
Drew

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