The Murphy Builders Site

Wayne:

How does your fix compare to what MAM recommends for the firewall fix
on a Rebel?

I just put mine on floats and want to do the fix next month when it
comes off floats.

Yours makes sense. Lots of room compared to the 2" channel aluminum.

Peter
Yellowknife, NT




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Peter...my "fix" has been utilized since 1996! Haven't had a firewall buckle
with them in place since. Even on Howard's total wreck they held the
firewall
straight and I can reuse it!!(and his fuselage is now almost 2" longer and 3
" shorter than it should be!!).
MAM's suggested .020 channels are toooo light! Go to .032 and they will
do something. My plates are .063 and tie a larger section together with the
witches hats for ultimate load distribution. If you look at our website
pictures you can
build your own set or order a set from me...your choice and if you can
source a
small quantity of .063 to do them yourself go ahead....won't hurt my
feelings.

The other thing that you absolutely have to do is to take the existing
approx. 1" rivet pitch up the forward door post/carrythru and drill another
hole/rivet between each rivet and staggered about 3/16" forward of the
existing row. Where they get close together on the top 4 or 5 up by the
forward wing attach these are too close to drill another in between..so
drill these right out to 3/16 and replace with RV1613 Rivets. If you don't
do this then a hard landing on floats (or worse yet skis!) will shear the
rivets out of the entire door post from top to
bottom like a shear cutting .016 aluminum. The double row and larger rivets
at the top stops this from happening...also proven by Howard's wreck as
everything else let go except these door posts... to the point his door
posts are
now a V shape. If it hadn't been double riveted we would still be looking
for his engine/propellor and nose section in 90 feet of water!!
Murphy's tech boys back in '96 wouldn't listen to me and said it wasn't
necessary to reinforce these door posts with the extra rivets...of course
until they FU$#($'d up the factory Elite on Amphibs and Les messed up his
Rebel amphib, at Oshkosh in
front of the "world" in 1998, and what you see as their float fix bulletin
was the
result (being the band-aid gusset at the top of the door post and channels
on the firewall) The Band-Aid gusset can be done on new builds but is pretty
hard to do on something flying unless you happen to be changing the
windshield. The staggered row of rivets and 4 or 5 RV1613's at the top,
that I do, has been proven by the test of time and total aircaft
destruction..... so I know it works (and well)!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao Piascik" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:40 AM
Subject: Firewall fix for floats

Wayne:

How does your fix compare to what MAM recommends for the firewall fix
on a Rebel?

I just put mine on floats and want to do the fix next month when it
comes off floats.

Yours makes sense. Lots of room compared to the 2" channel aluminum.

Peter
Yellowknife, NT




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Thanks Wayne for the info.

I work for First Air and can easily get some .063.

You have to fly up here some year. Just a little way out of the way on
route to Nimpo Lake.

Thanks again,

Peter

PS I do have to replace my windshield, hit a boat wake. Stitched for
now until off floats and in a hanger. Do you still recommend the second
row of rivets only?



On 21-Sep-04, at 6:34 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Peter...my "fix" has been utilized since 1996! Haven't had a firewall
buckle
with them in place since. Even on Howard's total wreck they held the
firewall
straight and I can reuse it!!(and his fuselage is now almost 2" longer
and 3
" shorter than it should be!!).
MAM's suggested .020 channels are toooo light! Go to .032 and they will
do something. My plates are .063 and tie a larger section together
with the
witches hats for ultimate load distribution. If you look at our website
pictures you can
build your own set or order a set from me...your choice and if you can
source a
small quantity of .063 to do them yourself go ahead....won't hurt my
feelings.

The other thing that you absolutely have to do is to take the existing
approx. 1" rivet pitch up the forward door post/carrythru and drill
another
hole/rivet between each rivet and staggered about 3/16" forward of the
existing row. Where they get close together on the top 4 or 5 up by the
forward wing attach these are too close to drill another in between..so
drill these right out to 3/16 and replace with RV1613 Rivets. If you
don't
do this then a hard landing on floats (or worse yet skis!) will shear
the
rivets out of the entire door post from top to
bottom like a shear cutting .016 aluminum. The double row and larger
rivets
at the top stops this from happening...also proven by Howard's wreck as
everything else let go except these door posts... to the point his door
posts are
now a V shape. If it hadn't been double riveted we would still be
looking
for his engine/propellor and nose section in 90 feet of water!!
Murphy's tech boys back in '96 wouldn't listen to me and said it wasn't
necessary to reinforce these door posts with the extra rivets...of
course
until they FU$#($'d up the factory Elite on Amphibs and Les messed up
his
Rebel amphib, at Oshkosh in
front of the "world" in 1998, and what you see as their float fix
bulletin
was the
result (being the band-aid gusset at the top of the door post and
channels
on the firewall) The Band-Aid gusset can be done on new builds but is
pretty
hard to do on something flying unless you happen to be changing the
windshield. The staggered row of rivets and 4 or 5 RV1613's at the
top,
that I do, has been proven by the test of time and total aircaft
destruction..... so I know it works (and well)!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao Piascik" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:40 AM
Subject: Firewall fix for floats

Wayne:

How does your fix compare to what MAM recommends for the firewall fix
on a Rebel?

I just put mine on floats and want to do the fix next month when it
comes off floats.

Yours makes sense. Lots of room compared to the 2" channel aluminum.

Peter
Yellowknife, NT




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Peter, don't you guys have some kind of midnight fly-in up there
around June 21. One of the guys here is trying to talk me into
going there next year.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao Piascik
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 7:45 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Firewall fix for floats


Thanks Wayne for the info.

I work for First Air and can easily get some .063.

You have to fly up here some year. Just a little way
out of the way on
route to Nimpo Lake.

Thanks again,

Peter

PS I do have to replace my windshield, hit a boat
wake. Stitched for
now until off floats and in a hanger. Do you still
recommend the second
row of rivets only?



On 21-Sep-04, at 6:34 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Peter...my "fix" has been utilized since 1996!

Haven't had a firewall

buckle
with them in place since. Even on Howard's total

wreck they held the

firewall
straight and I can reuse it!!(and his fuselage is

now almost 2" longer

and 3
" shorter than it should be!!).
MAM's suggested .020 channels are toooo light! Go to

.032 and they will

do something. My plates are .063 and tie a larger

section together

with the
witches hats for ultimate load distribution. If you

look at our website

pictures you can
build your own set or order a set from me...your

choice and if you can

source a
small quantity of .063 to do them yourself go

ahead....won't hurt my

feelings.

The other thing that you absolutely have to do is to

take the existing

approx. 1" rivet pitch up the forward door

post/carrythru and drill

another
hole/rivet between each rivet and staggered about

3/16" forward of the

existing row. Where they get close together on the

top 4 or 5 up by the

forward wing attach these are too close to drill

another in between..so

drill these right out to 3/16 and replace with

RV1613 Rivets. If you

don't
do this then a hard landing on floats (or worse yet

skis!) will shear

the
rivets out of the entire door post from top to
bottom like a shear cutting .016 aluminum. The

double row and larger

rivets
at the top stops this from happening...also proven

by Howard's wreck as

everything else let go except these door posts... to

the point his door

posts are
now a V shape. If it hadn't been double riveted we

would still be

looking
for his engine/propellor and nose section in 90 feet

of water!!

Murphy's tech boys back in '96 wouldn't listen to me

and said it wasn't

necessary to reinforce these door posts with the

extra rivets...of

course
until they FU$#($'d up the factory Elite on Amphibs

and Les messed up

his
Rebel amphib, at Oshkosh in
front of the "world" in 1998, and what you see as

their float fix

bulletin
was the
result (being the band-aid gusset at the top of the

door post and

channels
on the firewall) The Band-Aid gusset can be done on

new builds but is

pretty
hard to do on something flying unless you happen to

be changing the

windshield. The staggered row of rivets and 4 or 5

RV1613's at the

top,
that I do, has been proven by the test of time and

total aircaft

destruction..... so I know it works (and well)!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao Piascik"

<northofsixty@mac.com>

To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:40 AM
Subject: Firewall fix for floats

Wayne:

How does your fix compare to what MAM recommends

for the firewall fix

on a Rebel?

I just put mine on floats and want to do the fix

next month when it

comes off floats.

Yours makes sense. Lots of room compared to the 2"

channel aluminum.

Peter
Yellowknife, NT




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Second row of rivets with tops at wing attach area 3/16 seems to be plenty
(as confirmed by Howard's latest mess). Also hard to put the MAM "Band-Aid"
gusset on after the fact.... easy to do internally (ie under the Fus-9's)
when building new, but a bit tougher when things are already all together.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao Piascik" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Firewall fix for floats

Thanks Wayne for the info.

I work for First Air and can easily get some .063.

You have to fly up here some year. Just a little way out of the way on
route to Nimpo Lake.

Thanks again,

Peter

PS I do have to replace my windshield, hit a boat wake. Stitched for
now until off floats and in a hanger. Do you still recommend the second
row of rivets only?



On 21-Sep-04, at 6:34 PM, Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

Peter...my "fix" has been utilized since 1996! Haven't had a firewall
buckle
with them in place since. Even on Howard's total wreck they held the
firewall
straight and I can reuse it!!(and his fuselage is now almost 2" longer
and 3
" shorter than it should be!!).
MAM's suggested .020 channels are toooo light! Go to .032 and they will
do something. My plates are .063 and tie a larger section together
with the
witches hats for ultimate load distribution. If you look at our website
pictures you can
build your own set or order a set from me...your choice and if you can
source a
small quantity of .063 to do them yourself go ahead....won't hurt my
feelings.

The other thing that you absolutely have to do is to take the existing
approx. 1" rivet pitch up the forward door post/carrythru and drill
another
hole/rivet between each rivet and staggered about 3/16" forward of the
existing row. Where they get close together on the top 4 or 5 up by the
forward wing attach these are too close to drill another in between..so
drill these right out to 3/16 and replace with RV1613 Rivets. If you
don't
do this then a hard landing on floats (or worse yet skis!) will shear
the
rivets out of the entire door post from top to
bottom like a shear cutting .016 aluminum. The double row and larger
rivets
at the top stops this from happening...also proven by Howard's wreck as
everything else let go except these door posts... to the point his door
posts are
now a V shape. If it hadn't been double riveted we would still be
looking
for his engine/propellor and nose section in 90 feet of water!!
Murphy's tech boys back in '96 wouldn't listen to me and said it wasn't
necessary to reinforce these door posts with the extra rivets...of
course
until they FU$#($'d up the factory Elite on Amphibs and Les messed up
his
Rebel amphib, at Oshkosh in
front of the "world" in 1998, and what you see as their float fix
bulletin
was the
result (being the band-aid gusset at the top of the door post and
channels
on the firewall) The Band-Aid gusset can be done on new builds but is
pretty
hard to do on something flying unless you happen to be changing the
windshield. The staggered row of rivets and 4 or 5 RV1613's at the
top,
that I do, has been proven by the test of time and total aircaft
destruction..... so I know it works (and well)!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao Piascik" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:40 AM
Subject: Firewall fix for floats

Wayne:

How does your fix compare to what MAM recommends for the firewall fix
on a Rebel?

I just put mine on floats and want to do the fix next month when it
comes off floats.

Yours makes sense. Lots of room compared to the 2" channel aluminum.

Peter
Yellowknife, NT




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Hi Wayne / All

Sorry to drag this topic up again after a few days, but with my Elite, any
thoughts about using RV16xx's all the way up the forward door posts in the
standard holes (or even a suitable cherrymax or similar) rather than the
double hole spacing and 1410's at the bottom you recommend ?

Thanks
Nigel

PS Got your brother Murray out for a beer a few weeks ago :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: 22 September 2004 01:34
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Firewall fix for floats


Peter...my "fix" has been utilized since 1996! Haven't had a firewall buckle
with them in place since. Even on Howard's total wreck they held the
firewall
straight and I can reuse it!!(and his fuselage is now almost 2" longer and 3
" shorter than it should be!!).
MAM's suggested .020 channels are toooo light! Go to .032 and they will
do something. My plates are .063 and tie a larger section together with the
witches hats for ultimate load distribution. If you look at our website
pictures you can
build your own set or order a set from me...your choice and if you can
source a
small quantity of .063 to do them yourself go ahead....won't hurt my
feelings.

The other thing that you absolutely have to do is to take the existing
approx. 1" rivet pitch up the forward door post/carrythru and drill another
hole/rivet between each rivet and staggered about 3/16" forward of the
existing row. Where they get close together on the top 4 or 5 up by the
forward wing attach these are too close to drill another in between..so
drill these right out to 3/16 and replace with RV1613 Rivets. If you don't
do this then a hard landing on floats (or worse yet skis!) will shear the
rivets out of the entire door post from top to
bottom like a shear cutting .016 aluminum. The double row and larger rivets
at the top stops this from happening...also proven by Howard's wreck as
everything else let go except these door posts... to the point his door
posts are
now a V shape. If it hadn't been double riveted we would still be looking
for his engine/propellor and nose section in 90 feet of water!!
Murphy's tech boys back in '96 wouldn't listen to me and said it wasn't
necessary to reinforce these door posts with the extra rivets...of course
until they FU$#($'d up the factory Elite on Amphibs and Les messed up his
Rebel amphib, at Oshkosh in
front of the "world" in 1998, and what you see as their float fix bulletin
was the
result (being the band-aid gusset at the top of the door post and channels
on the firewall) The Band-Aid gusset can be done on new builds but is pretty
hard to do on something flying unless you happen to be changing the
windshield. The staggered row of rivets and 4 or 5 RV1613's at the top,
that I do, has been proven by the test of time and total aircaft
destruction..... so I know it works (and well)!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter, Juliet, & Wanaao Piascik" <northofsixty@mac.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:40 AM
Subject: Firewall fix for floats

Wayne:

How does your fix compare to what MAM recommends for the firewall fix
on a Rebel?

I just put mine on floats and want to do the fix next month when it
comes off floats.

Yours makes sense. Lots of room compared to the 2" channel aluminum.

Peter
Yellowknife, NT




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----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: Firewall fix for floats

The other thing that you absolutely have to do is to take the existing
approx. 1" rivet pitch up the forward door post/carrythru and drill

another

hole/rivet between each rivet and staggered about 3/16" forward of the
existing row. Where they get close together on the top 4 or 5 up by the
forward wing attach these are too close to drill another in between..so
drill these right out to 3/16 and replace with RV1613 Rivets. If you don't
do this then a hard landing on floats (or worse yet skis!) will shear the
rivets out of the entire door post from top to

Hi,
I'm getting ready to install the fus-9s now, I haven't drilled them yet and
only have two holes drilled in the fus-11s and one in the upper corner wraps
along the door post.
Just to be clear - how much of the door post gets the double row? I know
the fus-9s do but do they continue down the corner wrap section? How about
the fus-11s? Door hinge area?
As a retrofit you would have one row down the center and offset the other
row 3/16. With new construction would you recommend just putting the rows
1/3 and 2/3 across the post?
Thanks much!
Joel Jacobs
Rebel 416R




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I double rivet top to bottom Joel...but the important thing is the top and
fus-9. Also keep in mind this was posted for a retrofit upgrade I was
advising to someone on their flying aircraft. Also with MAM following suit
with a reinforcement "float fix" gusset, two years after my "fix", you can
probably get away with just the gusset across the top....but even then I
would add the double rivets in the upper post section. As for how you pitch
it.....depends on how you finish off your window frame for sealing.

Also..I install the door hinge to the inside face of the carrythru tube, not
on the outside as per the manual. Choice is yours..both have pros and cons.

Wayne


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@sdf.lonestar.org>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: Firewall fix for floats

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: Firewall fix for floats

The other thing that you absolutely have to do is to take the existing
approx. 1" rivet pitch up the forward door post/carrythru and drill

another

hole/rivet between each rivet and staggered about 3/16" forward of the
existing row. Where they get close together on the top 4 or 5 up by the
forward wing attach these are too close to drill another in between..so
drill these right out to 3/16 and replace with RV1613 Rivets. If you

don't

do this then a hard landing on floats (or worse yet skis!) will shear

the

rivets out of the entire door post from top to

Hi,
I'm getting ready to install the fus-9s now, I haven't drilled them yet

and

only have two holes drilled in the fus-11s and one in the upper corner

wraps

along the door post.
Just to be clear - how much of the door post gets the double row? I

know

the fus-9s do but do they continue down the corner wrap section? How

about

the fus-11s? Door hinge area?
As a retrofit you would have one row down the center and offset the

other

row 3/16. With new construction would you recommend just putting the rows
1/3 and 2/3 across the post?
Thanks much!
Joel Jacobs
Rebel 416R




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Hi Joel
FWIW I doubled the rivets all the way down the door post. At the top I
used 1/8 structural Q rivets to keep within the recommended 4d spacing
(instead of 3/16 avex). Yes I would have staggered them if I'd known at
the time but not sure there is room to stagger them in the door hinge.
Actually we also replaced the original door hinge material with a wider
hinge but I still don't think it was wide enough to stagger the rivets.
I believe I have heard of a couple of cases of the single row of rivets
ripping out along the entire door post during a violent ground loop...
Ken

Joel Jacobs wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: Firewall fix for floats

The other thing that you absolutely have to do is to take the existing
approx. 1" rivet pitch up the forward door post/carrythru and drill

another

hole/rivet between each rivet and staggered about 3/16" forward of the
existing row. Where they get close together on the top 4 or 5 up by the
forward wing attach these are too close to drill another in between..so
drill these right out to 3/16 and replace with RV1613 Rivets. If you don't
do this then a hard landing on floats (or worse yet skis!) will shear the
rivets out of the entire door post from top to

Hi,
I'm getting ready to install the fus-9s now, I haven't drilled them yet and
only have two holes drilled in the fus-11s and one in the upper corner wraps
along the door post.
Just to be clear - how much of the door post gets the double row? I know
the fus-9s do but do they continue down the corner wrap section? How about
the fus-11s? Door hinge area?
As a retrofit you would have one row down the center and offset the other
row 3/16. With new construction would you recommend just putting the rows
1/3 and 2/3 across the post?
Thanks much!
Joel Jacobs
Rebel 416R

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Thanks Ken, I'll stagger them the whole way down. Isn't the 4d spacing
center to center? 4d for the 3/16 rivets would be .75" and I think that's
the spacing on those...
Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Firewall fix for floats

Hi Joel
FWIW I doubled the rivets all the way down the door post. At the top I
used 1/8 structural Q rivets to keep within the recommended 4d spacing
(instead of 3/16 avex). Yes I would have staggered them if I'd known at
the time but not sure there is room to stagger them in the door hinge.
Actually we also replaced the original door hinge material with a wider
hinge but I still don't think it was wide enough to stagger the rivets.
I believe I have heard of a couple of cases of the single row of rivets
ripping out along the entire door post during a violent ground loop...
Ken

Joel Jacobs wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: Firewall fix for floats

The other thing that you absolutely have to do is to take the existing
approx. 1" rivet pitch up the forward door post/carrythru and drill

another

hole/rivet between each rivet and staggered about 3/16" forward of the
existing row. Where they get close together on the top 4 or 5 up by the
forward wing attach these are too close to drill another in between..so
drill these right out to 3/16 and replace with RV1613 Rivets. If you

don't

do this then a hard landing on floats (or worse yet skis!) will shear

the

rivets out of the entire door post from top to

Hi,
I'm getting ready to install the fus-9s now, I haven't drilled them yet

and

only have two holes drilled in the fus-11s and one in the upper corner

wraps

along the door post.
Just to be clear - how much of the door post gets the double row? I

know

the fus-9s do but do they continue down the corner wrap section? How

about

the fus-11s? Door hinge area?
As a retrofit you would have one row down the center and offset the

other

row 3/16. With new construction would you recommend just putting the

rows

1/3 and 2/3 across the post?
Thanks much!
Joel Jacobs
Rebel 416R

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Yes but I guess I didn't have .75 or was uncomfortable about minimum
spacing or something there when I redid it. This was a refit mod for me.
Ken

Joel Jacobs wrote:

Thanks Ken, I'll stagger them the whole way down. Isn't the 4d spacing
center to center? 4d for the 3/16 rivets would be .75" and I think that's
the spacing on those...
Joel

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I measured after I got home and they're slightly less than 3/4 OC. I
guess there are some advantages to taking 10 years to build my Rebel -
I let everyone else do the trailblazing and do all the mods as I go;>)
Funny thing though - just last month I spot drilled the 6 holes for my
spring gear attachments and a week later there was an update on MAMs
site moving them inboard 1/4" - go figure...
Joel


Ken wrote:

Yes but I guess I didn't have .75 or was uncomfortable about minimum
spacing or something there when I redid it. This was a refit mod for me.
Ken

Joel Jacobs wrote:

Thanks Ken, I'll stagger them the whole way down. Isn't the 4d spacing
center to center? 4d for the 3/16 rivets would be .75" and I think that's
the spacing on those...
Joel

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