The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

A FWIW on the Murphy oil tank.

I did some checking around on oil tank design before I made my own.

The Murphy tank is some sort of coolant or filter tank off of a truck. It
seems to work fine, however I would change the oil return line tube inside
the tank if it was on my airplane.
The oil return line comes in through the bottom of the tank, goes up a
tube to an inverted J at the top of the tank and then points right back into
the oil pickup line. The oil pick up stand pipe has holes in it to allow
oil from the tank in but it would seem that most of the oil would be
circulating without ever sitting in the tank.
I have been told that the oil returning to the tank on an M14 tends to
be a little frothed up and it is not the best idea to send this foamy stuff
directly back into the engine.
I would just bend this tube off to the side so it wasn't pointing
directly down the intake tube.

Picture of inside of MAM oil tank posted on archives under 62 S-Engine.

Scott
Moose 174

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

Folks,

Any problem / issue in just "gently" bending the oil return "J line" per
below so it doesn't point right back at the pickup line? Seems like an
easy task, but it never hurts to ask!

Thank you,

Ted Waltman
142SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Aldrich
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 12:34 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: MAM's Moose Oil tank

A FWIW on the Murphy oil tank.

I did some checking around on oil tank design before I made my own.

The Murphy tank is some sort of coolant or filter tank off of a truck.
It seems to work fine, however I would change the oil return line tube
inside the tank if it was on my airplane.
The oil return line comes in through the bottom of the tank, goes up
a tube to an inverted J at the top of the tank and then points right
back into the oil pickup line. The oil pick up stand pipe has holes in
it to allow oil from the tank in but it would seem that most of the oil
would be circulating without ever sitting in the tank.
I have been told that the oil returning to the tank on an M14 tends
to be a little frothed up and it is not the best idea to send this foamy
stuff directly back into the engine.
I would just bend this tube off to the side so it wasn't pointing
directly down the intake tube.

Picture of inside of MAM oil tank posted on archives under 62 S-Engine.

Scott
Moose 174

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

Only thing I can think of is the issue of adequate oil to the return line.
Couldn't see from the picture is there are enough holes in the side of the
return line to absolutely keep that line full of oil to return to the
engine. Possible that someone's line of thought is that they WANT the
return oil to be directed back to the engine, with excess aerated oil to
escape the stand pipe back to the tank. If this is so, the flow INTO the
stand pipe might not be adequate unless the return flow is directed to it.
This is the only reason that I can imagine to have such a stand pipe for the
suction line that I can think of. I, like Scott, can see items about this
design that I don't care for. Unless you're absolutely sure that there
won't be a question about oil getting into the pipe, I'd be real cautious
about redirecting the return flow.

Bill Delcambre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

Folks,

Any problem / issue in just "gently" bending the oil return "J line" per
below so it doesn't point right back at the pickup line? Seems like an
easy task, but it never hurts to ask!

Thank you,

Ted Waltman
142SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Aldrich
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 12:34 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: MAM's Moose Oil tank

A FWIW on the Murphy oil tank.

I did some checking around on oil tank design before I made my own.

The Murphy tank is some sort of coolant or filter tank off of a truck.
It seems to work fine, however I would change the oil return line tube
inside the tank if it was on my airplane.
The oil return line comes in through the bottom of the tank, goes up
a tube to an inverted J at the top of the tank and then points right
back into the oil pickup line. The oil pick up stand pipe has holes in
it to allow oil from the tank in but it would seem that most of the oil
would be circulating without ever sitting in the tank.
I have been told that the oil returning to the tank on an M14 tends
to be a little frothed up and it is not the best idea to send this foamy
stuff directly back into the engine.
I would just bend this tube off to the side so it wasn't pointing
directly down the intake tube.

Picture of inside of MAM oil tank posted on archives under 62 S-Engine.

Scott
Moose 174

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

I just reposted the picture under SR/Moose engines this time.

I really can't say how many holes were in the standpipe. It also seems like
it could be cut shorter and not mess with the return line at all.

It may be fine as is but if there is a chance of sending bubbles back to the
pump that just seems bad to me.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bill
Delcambre
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:03 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: MAM's Moose Oil tank

Only thing I can think of is the issue of adequate oil to the return line.
Couldn't see from the picture is there are enough holes in the side of the
return line to absolutely keep that line full of oil to return to the
engine. Possible that someone's line of thought is that they WANT the
return oil to be directed back to the engine, with excess aerated oil to
escape the stand pipe back to the tank. If this is so, the flow INTO the
stand pipe might not be adequate unless the return flow is directed to it.
This is the only reason that I can imagine to have such a stand pipe for the
suction line that I can think of. I, like Scott, can see items about this
design that I don't care for. Unless you're absolutely sure that there
won't be a question about oil getting into the pipe, I'd be real cautious
about redirecting the return flow.

Bill Delcambre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

Folks,

Any problem / issue in just "gently" bending the oil return "J line" per
below so it doesn't point right back at the pickup line? Seems like an
easy task, but it never hurts to ask!

Thank you,

Ted Waltman
142SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Aldrich
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 12:34 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: MAM's Moose Oil tank

A FWIW on the Murphy oil tank.

I did some checking around on oil tank design before I made my own.

The Murphy tank is some sort of coolant or filter tank off of a truck.
It seems to work fine, however I would change the oil return line tube
inside the tank if it was on my airplane.
The oil return line comes in through the bottom of the tank, goes up
a tube to an inverted J at the top of the tank and then points right
back into the oil pickup line. The oil pick up stand pipe has holes in
it to allow oil from the tank in but it would seem that most of the oil
would be circulating without ever sitting in the tank.
I have been told that the oil returning to the tank on an M14 tends
to be a little frothed up and it is not the best idea to send this foamy
stuff directly back into the engine.
I would just bend this tube off to the side so it wasn't pointing
directly down the intake tube.

Picture of inside of MAM oil tank posted on archives under 62 S-Engine.

Scott
Moose 174

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

The main reason that the return oil is sent back to the stand pipe is because
in very COLD weather you will be sending warm oil to the engine untill the
rest of the oil in the tank gets heated up.

Once the oil gets hot it will all flow thru the holes in the stand pipe.

Steve H
Moose 213

On 6/1/2004 1:07 PM, SA@MWUTAH.COM wrote to REBEL-BUILDERS:

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-> by localhost (brother [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
-> with ESMTP id 04933-05 for <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>;
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-> for <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>; Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:08:08 -0600 (MDT)
-> From: "Scott Aldrich" <sa@mwutah.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank
-> Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:07:50 -0600
-> X-Orig-MIME-Version: 1.0
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-> X-Virus-Scanned: by The WNOC.COM Advanced Mail Filter System at
mail.mwutah.com
->
-> I just reposted the picture under SR/Moose engines this time.
->
-> I really can't say how many holes were in the standpipe. It also seems like
-> it could be cut shorter and not mess with the return line at all.
->
-> It may be fine as is but if there is a chance of sending bubbles back to the
-> pump that just seems bad to me.
->
-> Scott
->
->
->
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Bill
-> Delcambre
-> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:03 PM
-> To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
-> Subject: Re: MAM's Moose Oil tank
->
-> Only thing I can think of is the issue of adequate oil to the return line.
-> Couldn't see from the picture is there are enough holes in the side of the
-> return line to absolutely keep that line full of oil to return to the
-> engine. Possible that someone's line of thought is that they WANT the
-> return oil to be directed back to the engine, with excess aerated oil to
-> escape the stand pipe back to the tank. If this is so, the flow INTO the
-> stand pipe might not be adequate unless the return flow is directed to it.
-> This is the only reason that I can imagine to have such a stand pipe for the
-> suction line that I can think of. I, like Scott, can see items about this
-> design that I don't care for. Unless you're absolutely sure that there
-> won't be a question about oil getting into the pipe, I'd be real cautious
-> about redirecting the return flow.
->
-> Bill Delcambre
->
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
-> To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:28 PM
-> Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank
->
->
-> > Folks,
-> >
-> > Any problem / issue in just "gently" bending the oil return "J line" per
-> > below so it doesn't point right back at the pickup line? Seems like an
-> > easy task, but it never hurts to ask!
-> >
-> > Thank you,
-> >
-> > Ted Waltman
-> > 142SR
-> >
-> > -----Original Message-----
-> > From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
-> > Scott Aldrich
-> > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 12:34 PM
-> > To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> > Subject: MAM's Moose Oil tank
-> >
-> >
-> > A FWIW on the Murphy oil tank.
-> >
-> > I did some checking around on oil tank design before I made my own.
-> >
-> > The Murphy tank is some sort of coolant or filter tank off of a truck.
-> > It seems to work fine, however I would change the oil return line tube
-> > inside the tank if it was on my airplane.
-> > The oil return line comes in through the bottom of the tank, goes up
-> > a tube to an inverted J at the top of the tank and then points right
-> > back into the oil pickup line. The oil pick up stand pipe has holes in
-> > it to allow oil from the tank in but it would seem that most of the oil
-> > would be circulating without ever sitting in the tank.
-> > I have been told that the oil returning to the tank on an M14 tends
-> > to be a little frothed up and it is not the best idea to send this foamy
-> > stuff directly back into the engine.
-> > I would just bend this tube off to the side so it wasn't pointing
-> > directly down the intake tube.
-> >
-> > Picture of inside of MAM oil tank posted on archives under 62 S-Engine.
-> >
-> > Scott
-> > Moose 174
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > *-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-> > --*
-> > To unsubscribe from this list go to:
-> > https://www.dcsol.com/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
-> > Archives located at https://www.dcsol.com/default.htm
-> > Archives public username "rebel" password "builder"
-> > To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> > *-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> > -----------------------------------------------------
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-> >
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->
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->
->
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->
->
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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

Good point! Now to wrestle with the good idea of circulating warm oil
back versus risking putting "frothy" oil back...

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 7:58 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

The main reason that the return oil is sent back to the stand pipe is
because
in very COLD weather you will be sending warm oil to the engine untill
the
rest of the oil in the tank gets heated up.

Once the oil gets hot it will all flow thru the holes in the stand pipe.

Steve H
Moose 213

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

A friend used to fly a CJ-6. The engine is a Chinese knock-off of the M14,
though it makes a bit less power. All was fine for about 30-40 minutes of
flight. Much more than that, however, and it would act up. It would lose
power, lose oil pressure and start to over-heat. Problem was traced to
"foamy oil". Seems that the oil would get so 'frothy' that it would cause
reduced oil pressure, to the point that the governor would lose ability to
control the propellor, causing high pitch and reduction of power. All he
had to do was land, drink a coke, answer a few questions about the plane and
he was good for another 30-40 minutes of flight. After landing, oil in this
thing looked like it came from the mouth of a rabid dog! I suspect that the
Chinese oil system probably looks a lot like the MAM tank. Personally, I'd
vote for sending oil from a holding tank that didn't just come from the
scavenge pump, which is likely where the air is introduced to the oil. Take
a look at the oil tank that the Rotax 912 uses. Too small for an M14, mind
you, but a very well thought out design.

Bill Delcambre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

Good point! Now to wrestle with the good idea of circulating warm oil
back versus risking putting "frothy" oil back...

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 7:58 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

The main reason that the return oil is sent back to the stand pipe is
because
in very COLD weather you will be sending warm oil to the engine untill
the
rest of the oil in the tank gets heated up.

Once the oil gets hot it will all flow thru the holes in the stand pipe.

Steve H
Moose 213

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the cogent points folks bring
up on both sides of most issues. I'm not experienced nor smart enough
<grin> to reach an independent conclusion, so I very much appreciate
everyone's input on whatever the subject might be. It is indeed
interesting, though, to see folks make great points on two opposite
sides of the spectrum. I guess many of these mechanical / construction
items have a pro for every con.

One reason I bought the Moose is due to the wealth of information
everyone so willingly offers on this listserver. I'll have to go
research the Rotex oil tank and learn more!

Thanks Bill, and everyone else!

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Bill Delcambre
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 11:35 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: MAM's Moose Oil tank

A friend used to fly a CJ-6. The engine is a Chinese knock-off of the
M14, though it makes a bit less power. All was fine for about 30-40
minutes of flight. Much more than that, however, and it would act up.
It would lose power, lose oil pressure and start to over-heat. Problem
was traced to "foamy oil". Seems that the oil would get so 'frothy'
that it would cause reduced oil pressure, to the point that the governor
would lose ability to control the propellor, causing high pitch and
reduction of power. All he had to do was land, drink a coke, answer a
few questions about the plane and he was good for another 30-40 minutes
of flight. After landing, oil in this thing looked like it came from
the mouth of a rabid dog! I suspect that the Chinese oil system
probably looks a lot like the MAM tank. Personally, I'd vote for
sending oil from a holding tank that didn't just come from the scavenge
pump, which is likely where the air is introduced to the oil. Take a
look at the oil tank that the Rotax 912 uses. Too small for an M14,
mind you, but a very well thought out design.

Bill Delcambre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

Good point! Now to wrestle with the good idea of circulating warm oil

back versus risking putting "frothy" oil back...

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 7:58 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

The main reason that the return oil is sent back to the stand pipe is
because in very COLD weather you will be sending warm oil to the
engine untill the
rest of the oil in the tank gets heated up.

Once the oil gets hot it will all flow thru the holes in the stand
pipe.

Steve H
Moose 213

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

From what Brain at MAM told me I took it that the tank was not designed this
way on purpose, it is just the way it came off the trucks (see MAM's
response below) I only know of a few M14 Moose's that are flying and the oil
tends to be on the too hot side. The Pitts 12 guys are switching to a
bigger cooler (which may be the same one the Moose is already using, not
sure on that yet) and a thermostat that starts to open at 115 F and is fully
open at 145 F as opposed to the 160 ish of the current setup.

Maybe someone with one in operation could look inside after shutdown and see
just how foamy things are??

This was response to my question on the tank design back in Feb.

From: Brian Godden [mailto:murtech@murphyair.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:25 PM
To: 'Scott & Leere' Aldrich'
Subject: RE: Inside the Moose oil tank

Hi Scott,

Don't know the answers to this.except the tank is off a truck, and I think
the internals were to do with its original application. Works though.

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 7:58 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

The main reason that the return oil is sent back to the stand pipe is
because
in very COLD weather you will be sending warm oil to the engine until the
rest of the oil in the tank gets heated up.

Once the oil gets hot it will all flow thru the holes in the stand pipe.

Steve H
Moose 213

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

I'll look today or tomorrow right after touchdown, as I'm taking a long
x-country. Report back on Monday to the group on this visual check.

Ted
Moose 142SR

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Scott Aldrich
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 12:24 PM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

From what Brain at MAM told me I took it that the tank was not designed
this way on purpose, it is just the way it came off the trucks (see
MAM's response below) I only know of a few M14 Moose's that are flying
and the oil tends to be on the too hot side. The Pitts 12 guys are
switching to a bigger cooler (which may be the same one the Moose is
already using, not sure on that yet) and a thermostat that starts to
open at 115 F and is fully open at 145 F as opposed to the 160 ish of
the current setup.

Maybe someone with one in operation could look inside after shutdown and
see just how foamy things are??

This was response to my question on the tank design back in Feb.

From: Brian Godden [mailto:murtech@murphyair.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 4:25 PM
To: 'Scott & Leere' Aldrich'
Subject: RE: Inside the Moose oil tank

Hi Scott,

Don't know the answers to this.except the tank is off a truck, and I
think the internals were to do with its original application. Works
though.

Regards

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 7:58 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

The main reason that the return oil is sent back to the stand pipe is
because
in very COLD weather you will be sending warm oil to the engine until
the
rest of the oil in the tank gets heated up.

Once the oil gets hot it will all flow thru the holes in the stand pipe.

Steve H
Moose 213

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:16 am**

Sounds like you need a summer tank and a winter tank Ted. ;) Or how about
a cockpit adjustable oil return?

At 11:58 AM 6/2/2004 -0600, you wrote:

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the cogent points folks bring
up on both sides of most issues. I'm not experienced nor smart enough
<grin> to reach an independent conclusion, so I very much appreciate
everyone's input on whatever the subject might be. It is indeed
interesting, though, to see folks make great points on two opposite
sides of the spectrum. I guess many of these mechanical / construction
items have a pro for every con.

One reason I bought the Moose is due to the wealth of information
everyone so willingly offers on this listserver. I'll have to go
research the Rotex oil tank and learn more!

Thanks Bill, and everyone else!

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
Bill Delcambre
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 11:35 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: MAM's Moose Oil tank

A friend used to fly a CJ-6. The engine is a Chinese knock-off of the
M14, though it makes a bit less power. All was fine for about 30-40
minutes of flight. Much more than that, however, and it would act up.
It would lose power, lose oil pressure and start to over-heat. Problem
was traced to "foamy oil". Seems that the oil would get so 'frothy'
that it would cause reduced oil pressure, to the point that the governor
would lose ability to control the propellor, causing high pitch and
reduction of power. All he had to do was land, drink a coke, answer a
few questions about the plane and he was good for another 30-40 minutes
of flight. After landing, oil in this thing looked like it came from
the mouth of a rabid dog! I suspect that the Chinese oil system
probably looks a lot like the MAM tank. Personally, I'd vote for
sending oil from a holding tank that didn't just come from the scavenge
pump, which is likely where the air is introduced to the oil. Take a
look at the oil tank that the Rotax 912 uses. Too small for an M14,
mind you, but a very well thought out design.

Bill Delcambre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <rebel-builders@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

Good point! Now to wrestle with the good idea of circulating warm oil

back versus risking putting "frothy" oil back...

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of
rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 7:58 AM
To: rebel-builders@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: MAM's Moose Oil tank

The main reason that the return oil is sent back to the stand pipe is
because in very COLD weather you will be sending warm oil to the
engine untill the
rest of the oil in the tank gets heated up.

Once the oil gets hot it will all flow thru the holes in the stand
pipe.

Steve H
Moose 213

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Drew

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