The Murphy Builders Site

Robyn (MAM's test pilot) will tell you that they did the same thing... for a
while. After several hundred hours with no problems, they quit carrying the
scuba tanks.

Mike

On 5/6/2004 6:46 AM, MURPHY-REBEL@DCSOL.COM wrote to MIKE DAVIS:

Another "friend" of mine <grin> told me that if I purchase a Moose with
the MP-14 (air start version) that I would need to carry one or perhaps
even two spare air bottles (used scuba tanks) with me if I go to remote
strips where there are no services available. Heck, even if I go to
many small-town strips I should have a spare bottle as no pressurized
air may be available.

Thoughts, comments?

I'm starting to feel guilty using so much list bandwidth...

Ted

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Another "friend" of mine <grin> told me that if I purchase a Moose with
the MP-14 (air start version) that I would need to carry one or perhaps
even two spare air bottles (used scuba tanks) with me if I go to remote
strips where there are no services available. Heck, even if I go to
many small-town strips I should have a spare bottle as no pressurized
air may be available.

Thoughts, comments?

I'm starting to feel guilty using so much list bandwidth...

Ted



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The way most of our Moose systems (and Pitts 12) are hooked up you can shut
the valve off right at the air reservoir. Highly unlikely it is going to
leak at all through this one valve. I would say your chances of a dead
battery on an electric start are greater.

Just my opinion.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com] On Behalf Of Ted
Waltman
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 7:55 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: MP-14 air start question

Another "friend" of mine <grin> told me that if I purchase a Moose with
the MP-14 (air start version) that I would need to carry one or perhaps
even two spare air bottles (used scuba tanks) with me if I go to remote
strips where there are no services available. Heck, even if I go to
many small-town strips I should have a spare bottle as no pressurized
air may be available.

Thoughts, comments?

I'm starting to feel guilty using so much list bandwidth...

Ted



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Giday, Ted. I currently doing research into the air start system for my Housai installation
and have been following the Yak list to gain some knowledge. They seem to recommend
carrying an aux bottle too but there are some choices of methods of filling them in the field.
Some recommend a scuba type arrangement and others recommend a Scott air bottle as
found in fire fighters supplementary air systems. The thought on the latter is that a dive shop
might not be handy to those in need but a willing fire station may be able to help.

Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 early construction
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 9:55 AM
Subject: MP-14 air start question

Another "friend" of mine <grin> told me that if I purchase a Moose with
the MP-14 (air start version) that I would need to carry one or perhaps
even two spare air bottles (used scuba tanks) with me if I go to remote
strips where there are no services available. Heck, even if I go to
many small-town strips I should have a spare bottle as no pressurized
air may be available.

Thoughts, comments?

I'm starting to feel guilty using so much list bandwidth...

Ted



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Hi Ted,

If you listen to the Yak guys you will always hear one who says he carried a
scuba tank around for three years or so and finally took it out and put it
in the corner of the hanger. The conclusion, once the system proves its
reliability (especially with an isolation valve just downstream of the tank
that is closed at the end of flight) there is very little incentive to carry
around the extra tank. I think I would still carry a back up if going into
the boondocks.

Randy and I hope to be in the air in the next month or so. Will give a full
report of our experiences.

Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner, Randy Bowers
N622D Double Duce Delta Moose
#130 M-14PF 400HP, MT-Prop/Beta, Aerocet 3500 amphibs
Delta Lake, Rome, NY




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Hi Ted,
When we first ran the M-14, we too used quite a bit of air. But after
learning the art of priming, we find that it starts real easy. I just takes
some time to learn and during that time, have plenty of air. Also, it seems
that every engine is a little different. Another thing we learned is that
timing is very important. We have two CJ-6's on the field that have the
same air start systems. They were having difficulty starting and found that
the magneto timing was off quite a bit. Although the engine seemed to run
OK, starting was hard. After correcting the timing, they are easy to start.
Of course, those are not M-14's but the same thing would apply. All that
said, we plan to carry some extra air the first times we venture into the
outback!
Disk and Dave Shotwell
Moose 096
N235DS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 7:55 AM
Subject: MP-14 air start question

Another "friend" of mine <grin> told me that if I purchase a Moose with
the MP-14 (air start version) that I would need to carry one or perhaps
even two spare air bottles (used scuba tanks) with me if I go to remote
strips where there are no services available. Heck, even if I go to
many small-town strips I should have a spare bottle as no pressurized
air may be available.

Thoughts, comments?

I'm starting to feel guilty using so much list bandwidth...

Ted

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Dick, could you please say what type of valve is on the main system to accept
aux compressed air for emergency refill? Do you simply walk up to that filler port,
attach the two mating fittings and then open the aux compressed air tank with a
valve and watch the receiving tank get up to it's normal full pressure then shut off
and remove the filler tank? Thanks.

Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 early construction
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Shotwell" <dicks@pmt.org>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: MP-14 air start question

Hi Ted,
When we first ran the M-14, we too used quite a bit of air. But after
learning the art of priming, we find that it starts real easy. I just takes
some time to learn and during that time, have plenty of air. Also, it seems
that every engine is a little different. Another thing we learned is that
timing is very important. We have two CJ-6's on the field that have the
same air start systems. They were having difficulty starting and found that
the magneto timing was off quite a bit. Although the engine seemed to run
OK, starting was hard. After correcting the timing, they are easy to start.
Of course, those are not M-14's but the same thing would apply. All that
said, we plan to carry some extra air the first times we venture into the
outback!
Disk and Dave Shotwell
Moose 096
N235DS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 7:55 AM
Subject: MP-14 air start question

Another "friend" of mine <grin> told me that if I purchase a Moose with
the MP-14 (air start version) that I would need to carry one or perhaps
even two spare air bottles (used scuba tanks) with me if I go to remote
strips where there are no services available. Heck, even if I go to
many small-town strips I should have a spare bottle as no pressurized
air may be available.

Thoughts, comments?

I'm starting to feel guilty using so much list bandwidth...

Ted

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Dave,
I just found out that I cannot send picture attachments on the list serve.
Can I send this reply to your e-mail address? If so, let me know what your
address is.

Thanks,
Dick


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Stroud" <davestroud@rogers.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: MP-14 air start question

Dick, could you please say what type of valve is on the main system to

accept

aux compressed air for emergency refill? Do you simply walk up to that

filler port,

attach the two mating fittings and then open the aux compressed air tank

with a

valve and watch the receiving tank get up to it's normal full pressure

then shut off

and remove the filler tank? Thanks.

Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 early construction
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Shotwell" <dicks@pmt.org>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: MP-14 air start question

Hi Ted,
When we first ran the M-14, we too used quite a bit of air. But after
learning the art of priming, we find that it starts real easy. I just

takes

some time to learn and during that time, have plenty of air. Also, it

seems

that every engine is a little different. Another thing we learned is

that

timing is very important. We have two CJ-6's on the field that have the
same air start systems. They were having difficulty starting and found

that

the magneto timing was off quite a bit. Although the engine seemed to

run

OK, starting was hard. After correcting the timing, they are easy to

start.

Of course, those are not M-14's but the same thing would apply. All

that

said, we plan to carry some extra air the first times we venture into

the

outback!
Disk and Dave Shotwell
Moose 096
N235DS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 7:55 AM
Subject: MP-14 air start question

Another "friend" of mine <grin> told me that if I purchase a Moose

with

the MP-14 (air start version) that I would need to carry one or

perhaps

even two spare air bottles (used scuba tanks) with me if I go to

remote

strips where there are no services available. Heck, even if I go to
many small-town strips I should have a spare bottle as no pressurized
air may be available.

Thoughts, comments?

I'm starting to feel guilty using so much list bandwidth...

Ted

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Hi Dave,

A picture of a filler schrader valve can be found in the archives at:

https://www.dcsol.com/file/area62/Air%20Manifold.jpg

ACS part# 06-11700 GOOSENECK HOSE COUPLING # 6116
on page 215 of the 2002-2003 Catalog is what I plan to use on the aux fill
tank hose. It just arrived from ACS today. Still in the box. I have not used
it yet. Hope to be starting the engine is a few weeks.

Your description of the filling process is basically correct.

Hope this helps,
Don B

From: Dick Shotwell <dicks@pmt.org>
Reply-To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 16:45:43 -0600
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: MP-14 air start question

Dave,
I just found out that I cannot send picture attachments on the list serve.
Can I send this reply to your e-mail address? If so, let me know what your
address is.

Thanks,
Dick


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Stroud" <davestroud@rogers.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: MP-14 air start question

Dick, could you please say what type of valve is on the main system to

accept

aux compressed air for emergency refill? Do you simply walk up to that

filler port,

attach the two mating fittings and then open the aux compressed air tank

with a

valve and watch the receiving tank get up to it's normal full pressure

then shut off

and remove the filler tank? Thanks.

Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 early construction
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Shotwell" <dicks@pmt.org>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: MP-14 air start question

Hi Ted,
When we first ran the M-14, we too used quite a bit of air. But after
learning the art of priming, we find that it starts real easy. I just

takes

some time to learn and during that time, have plenty of air. Also, it

seems

that every engine is a little different. Another thing we learned is

that

timing is very important. We have two CJ-6's on the field that have the
same air start systems. They were having difficulty starting and found

that

the magneto timing was off quite a bit. Although the engine seemed to

run

OK, starting was hard. After correcting the timing, they are easy to

start.

Of course, those are not M-14's but the same thing would apply. All

that

said, we plan to carry some extra air the first times we venture into

the

outback!
Disk and Dave Shotwell
Moose 096
N235DS
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Waltman" <tedwaltman@i1ci.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 7:55 AM
Subject: MP-14 air start question

with

perhaps

remote

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Don, thank you very much for this excellent clarification. I've just about got it. It's
interesting to see a few different approaches to the same goal. Two more questions
if I may. Near the bottom center of your photo, it says in small print...pressure relief valve.
What is that referring to, please? Also, it looks as if the item on the lower left labelled as
the ...Dump valve, water and compressor air when tank full...is to be set to the normal 800 or
850 lbs and it will continue to dump overboard any accumulated water or oil in the whole
air start system as well as the continuous excess air from the compressor? Thank you very
much again and also to you, Dick.


Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 early construction

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 11:52 PM
Subject: Re: MP-14 air start question

Hi Dave,

A picture of a filler schrader valve can be found in the archives at:

https://www.dcsol.com/file/area62/Air%20Manifold.jpg

ACS part# 06-11700 GOOSENECK HOSE COUPLING # 6116
on page 215 of the 2002-2003 Catalog is what I plan to use on the aux fill
tank hose. It just arrived from ACS today. Still in the box. I have not used
it yet. Hope to be starting the engine is a few weeks.

Your description of the filling process is basically correct.

Hope this helps,
Don B

From: Dick Shotwell <dicks@pmt.org>
Reply-To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Date: Sat, 08 May 2004 16:45:43 -0600
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: MP-14 air start question

Dave,
I just found out that I cannot send picture attachments on the list serve.
Can I send this reply to your e-mail address? If so, let me know what your
address is.

Thanks,
Dick


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Stroud" <davestroud@rogers.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: MP-14 air start question

Dick, could you please say what type of valve is on the main system to

accept

aux compressed air for emergency refill? Do you simply walk up to that

filler port,

attach the two mating fittings and then open the aux compressed air tank

with a

valve and watch the receiving tank get up to it's normal full pressure

then shut off

and remove the filler tank? Thanks.

Dave Stroud, Ottawa, Canada
Christavia C-FDWS
Fairchild 51 early construction
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Shotwell" <dicks@pmt.org>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: MP-14 air start question

takes

seems

that

that

run

start.

that

the

with

perhaps

remote

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Good morning Dave,

For your information, the air system was purchased from:
http://www.jimkimballenterprises.com/h_ ... moose.html
It was physically rearranged a bit for installation and an isolation valve
was installed just down stream of the tank.

Don, thank you very much for this excellent clarification. I've just about got
it. It's
interesting to see a few different approaches to the same goal. Two more
questions

There are definitely different approaches. For example some Yak guys like to
have their back up tank plumbed into the system so that it is filled by the
compressor some like it independent ... etc. Matter of taste and outlook on
the pro's and con's. That is what is so great about building experimental.
With or without sprinkles! The Yak list has been a good source of
information. You can sign up at:

http://www.matronics.com/subscription/

I use the digest form. For electrical try AeroElectric.

if I may. Near the bottom center of your photo, it says in small
print...pressure relief valve.
What is that referring to, please?

This valve will automatically release pressure if the system reaches a
preset point. I think it is set for aprox 800 PSI.

Also, it looks as if the item on the lower
left labelled as the ...Dump valve, water and compressor air when tank

full...is to be set to the normal 800 or 850 lbs and it will continue to
dump overboard any accumulated water or oil in the whole air start system as
well as >the continuous excess air from the compressor?

This valve is controlled by the pilot with a cockpit switch. After your tank
is full to say 800 PSI (will lower to normal 750ish on cooling) you open
this valve and the dump compressor air overboard. As to accumulated water or
oil, its location in the system is such that it will probably do little for
these which are down stream of the valve. Kevin Kimball says that in his
experience if the valve is open once the system is charged that water/oil
accumulation is the tank has not been a problem. The tank air is down stream
of a check valve and therefore stays charged when the dump valve is open.

Thank you very

You are welcome. Randy and I have had a million questions, OK thousands.
This list and others have been a real help. After flying, SOON, and we have
a chance to see how all the systems work in real life we look forward to
sharing what we find.

OFF to the MOOSE WORKS,
Don B.




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