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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 13:47:06 +1200
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Hi there,

Fuel flow is straight gravity, in the three point position I am getting
about 115lts per hour out of each tank individually, which is heaps.

I have positively vented my tanks ( vent into airstream) which will add more
'head' to the engine.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Do Rebels with Lycoming O320's use an auxiliary fuel pump, or straight
gravity feed from the wings? If gravity feed, what maximum climb angle
did you use for your fuel flow test, and what test results did you get?

I am testing mine now, and fear that I may not have adequate fuel flow
with gravity feed at full power and maximum climb angle.

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Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
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Alister, how full were your tanks when you got that flow? What is your
maximum
climb angle?

In my tests, I set the plane on an incline to get a 15 degree climb angle.
That's considerably below the 3 point position. With only 1 gal US in each
tank,
I got the following results. One tank open gave me only 12 gph US, while
both
gave me 14.
At cruise level, I got 18 gph US with one tank and 19 with both. There was
an 8
'' difference in "head" between the two positions. I haven't yet tried it
with
more fuel in the tanks.

Alister Yeoman wrote:

Hi there,

Fuel flow is straight gravity, in the three point position I am getting
about 115lts per hour out of each tank individually, which is heaps.

I have positively vented my tanks ( vent into airstream) which will add

more

'head' to the engine.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Do Rebels with Lycoming O320's use an auxiliary fuel pump, or straight
gravity feed from the wings? If gravity feed, what maximum climb angle
did you use for your fuel flow test, and what test results did you get?

I am testing mine now, and fear that I may not have adequate fuel flow
with gravity feed at full power and maximum climb angle.

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 08:55:38 +1200
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My tanks where tested when about 1/4 full, they were done again recently at
the 100 hr check, same results. 115 lts per hr individually, whats that in
US gallons? a bit over 25 gals per hour?

I found additional fuel in the tank made very little difference, the most
head is achieved in the drop between the tank and the firewall, obviously,
adding fuel to the tank didn't do much at all to flows.

I couldn't actually tell you what my maximum climb angle is, but one up and
light on fuel it is very steep!

Didn't some of the earlier kits have fuel shutoff valves that needed
drilling out because of flow problems?

Your flows seem a little low, you would need a minimum of 1 1/2 times
maximum engine demand. Say, 70 lts per hour minimum.

I was initially myself a little concerned that a steep angle of climb would
restrict fuel flow to the engine, that is one of the reasons I put inverted
J tubes on my fuel caps to positively vent the fuel tanks.

Even at climb speed there will be a positive pressure in the tanks
maybe 1/2 lb. --some one out will know the correct figure.) and this will
counteract any reduction in head by the increase in angle of climb.
( when pressure testing the fuel tanks for leaks, I found a 2lb pressure has
a head of around 1200mm.)


For the record, I put five fuel drains in, one in each tank, one on each
side at the lowest point and one in the gasculator ( I ducted cold air onto
the gasculator as well) forward of the firewall. I have done about 125hrs to
date and haven't had a blip out of the engine--very reassuring!

Hope this helps.

Alister
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Alister, how full were your tanks when you got that flow? What is your

maximum

climb angle?

In my tests, I set the plane on an incline to get a 15 degree climb angle.
That's considerably below the 3 point position. With only 1 gal US in each

tank,

I got the following results. One tank open gave me only 12 gph US, while

both

gave me 14.
At cruise level, I got 18 gph US with one tank and 19 with both. There was

an 8

'' difference in "head" between the two positions. I haven't yet tried it

with

more fuel in the tanks.

Alister Yeoman wrote:

Hi there,

Fuel flow is straight gravity, in the three point position I am getting
about 115lts per hour out of each tank individually, which is heaps.

I have positively vented my tanks ( vent into airstream) which will add

more

'head' to the engine.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Do Rebels with Lycoming O320's use an auxiliary fuel pump, or straight
gravity feed from the wings? If gravity feed, what maximum climb angle
did you use for your fuel flow test, and what test results did you get?

I am testing mine now, and fear that I may not have adequate fuel flow
with gravity feed at full power and maximum climb angle.

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

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To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
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Thanks Alister. That is good information. Sounds like you are getting
roughly
double my fuel flows. I do have a Flowscan fuel meter. I wonder if that is
restricting my flows by requiring extra pressure. I did change to the bigger
ID
shut-off valves instead of drilling them out, so should be OK there. I also
have the same 5 fuel drains. Where do you get these J tube fuel caps?

Any other experiences from Rebel O320 builders?

Alister Yeoman wrote:

My tanks where tested when about 1/4 full, they were done again recently

at

the 100 hr check, same results. 115 lts per hr individually, whats that in
US gallons? a bit over 25 gals per hour?

I found additional fuel in the tank made very little difference, the most
head is achieved in the drop between the tank and the firewall, obviously,
adding fuel to the tank didn't do much at all to flows.

I couldn't actually tell you what my maximum climb angle is, but one up

and

light on fuel it is very steep!

Didn't some of the earlier kits have fuel shutoff valves that needed
drilling out because of flow problems?

Your flows seem a little low, you would need a minimum of 1 1/2 times
maximum engine demand. Say, 70 lts per hour minimum.

I was initially myself a little concerned that a steep angle of climb

would

restrict fuel flow to the engine, that is one of the reasons I put

inverted

J tubes on my fuel caps to positively vent the fuel tanks.

Even at climb speed there will be a positive pressure in the tanks
maybe 1/2 lb. --some one out will know the correct figure.) and this will
counteract any reduction in head by the increase in angle of climb.
( when pressure testing the fuel tanks for leaks, I found a 2lb pressure

has

a head of around 1200mm.)

For the record, I put five fuel drains in, one in each tank, one on each
side at the lowest point and one in the gasculator ( I ducted cold air

onto

the gasculator as well) forward of the firewall. I have done about 125hrs

to

date and haven't had a blip out of the engine--very reassuring!

Hope this helps.

Alister
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Alister, how full were your tanks when you got that flow? What is your

maximum

climb angle?

In my tests, I set the plane on an incline to get a 15 degree climb

angle.

That's considerably below the 3 point position. With only 1 gal US in

each

tank,

I got the following results. One tank open gave me only 12 gph US, while

both

gave me 14.
At cruise level, I got 18 gph US with one tank and 19 with both. There

was

an 8

'' difference in "head" between the two positions. I haven't yet tried it

with

more fuel in the tanks.

Alister Yeoman wrote:

Hi there,

Fuel flow is straight gravity, in the three point position I am getting
about 115lts per hour out of each tank individually, which is heaps.

I have positively vented my tanks ( vent into airstream) which will add

more

'head' to the engine.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

get?

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 11:18:27 +1200
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I just made them up and bronzed them onto the caps, My tank vents are not
linked to equalize pressure in both tanks, but they still drain very evenly.
Just remember to face the breather to the front after refueling!!!

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Thanks Alister. That is good information. Sounds like you are getting

roughly

double my fuel flows. I do have a Flowscan fuel meter. I wonder if that is
restricting my flows by requiring extra pressure. I did change to the

bigger ID

shut-off valves instead of drilling them out, so should be OK there. I

also

have the same 5 fuel drains. Where do you get these J tube fuel caps?

Any other experiences from Rebel O320 builders?

Alister Yeoman wrote:

My tanks where tested when about 1/4 full, they were done again recently

at

the 100 hr check, same results. 115 lts per hr individually, whats that

in

US gallons? a bit over 25 gals per hour?

I found additional fuel in the tank made very little difference, the most
head is achieved in the drop between the tank and the firewall,

obviously,

adding fuel to the tank didn't do much at all to flows.

I couldn't actually tell you what my maximum climb angle is, but one up

and

light on fuel it is very steep!

Didn't some of the earlier kits have fuel shutoff valves that needed
drilling out because of flow problems?

Your flows seem a little low, you would need a minimum of 1 1/2 times
maximum engine demand. Say, 70 lts per hour minimum.

I was initially myself a little concerned that a steep angle of climb

would

restrict fuel flow to the engine, that is one of the reasons I put

inverted

J tubes on my fuel caps to positively vent the fuel tanks.

Even at climb speed there will be a positive pressure in the tanks
maybe 1/2 lb. --some one out will know the correct figure.) and this

will

counteract any reduction in head by the increase in angle of climb.
( when pressure testing the fuel tanks for leaks, I found a 2lb pressure

has

a head of around 1200mm.)

For the record, I put five fuel drains in, one in each tank, one on each
side at the lowest point and one in the gasculator ( I ducted cold air

onto

the gasculator as well) forward of the firewall. I have done about 125hrs

to

date and haven't had a blip out of the engine--very reassuring!

Hope this helps.

Alister
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Alister, how full were your tanks when you got that flow? What is your

maximum

climb angle?

In my tests, I set the plane on an incline to get a 15 degree climb

angle.

That's considerably below the 3 point position. With only 1 gal US in

each

tank,

I got the following results. One tank open gave me only 12 gph US, while

both

gave me 14.
At cruise level, I got 18 gph US with one tank and 19 with both. There

was

an 8

'' difference in "head" between the two positions. I haven't yet tried

it

with

more fuel in the tanks.

Alister Yeoman wrote:

getting

add

more

straight

angle

get?

flow

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Message-Id: <E10oZqT-00000b-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:43:45 -0400


Gee, Walter - I'm surprised you got ANY flow with only ONE gallon in the
tank !!! We often find that the flow gets 'bubbly' at about 3 gallons
remaining !!

When you do the flow test, start with 5 or 10 gallons, remove the line
at
the carb., and let it run into a can. Watch the output, while timing the
flow.
When the flow starts to get frothy, mark the guage as 'empty' - you might be
surprised to find this mark is about 1/2" ABOVE the bottom of the guage !!!!
This is not uncommon ....

Hope this helps !
.......bobp

FWIW - I don't know ANYONE who uses a fuel pump on Lycosaurus-powered
Rebels.

---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 06:05 AM 5/30/99 -0700, you wrote:

Alister, how full were your tanks when you got that flow? What is your

maximum

climb angle?

In my tests, I set the plane on an incline to get a 15 degree climb angle.
That's considerably below the 3 point position. With only 1 gal US in each

tank,

I got the following results. One tank open gave me only 12 gph US, while

both

gave me 14.
At cruise level, I got 18 gph US with one tank and 19 with both. There was

an 8

'' difference in "head" between the two positions. I haven't yet tried it

with

more fuel in the tanks.

Alister Yeoman wrote:

Hi there,

Fuel flow is straight gravity, in the three point position I am getting
about 115lts per hour out of each tank individually, which is heaps.

I have positively vented my tanks ( vent into airstream) which will add

more

'head' to the engine.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Do Rebels with Lycoming O320's use an auxiliary fuel pump, or straight
gravity feed from the wings? If gravity feed, what maximum climb angle
did you use for your fuel flow test, and what test results did you get?

I am testing mine now, and fear that I may not have adequate fuel flow
with gravity feed at full power and maximum climb angle.

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

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To: " (Murphy Rebel Builders List)" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
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Thanks again, Bob. At least now I know that it should work with just gravity
feed.
My wings are off again now, so will be awhile before I get to try some more
tests.
Yes, I did slosh, but not with the finger screens in! I will check that
gascolator,
too. I got it from MAM, so assume it's the right one.

Bob Patterson wrote:

It may very well be that the flow meter IS the problem !! I just checked
with one of our AIR-ABA inspectors here - the MINIMUM fuel flow that they
will accept (regardless of engine choice !) is 24 gallons/hour, and they
prefer 30 gph !!

Every Rebel tested so far has passed, with no problem (they just use
the normal tail-down, on the tailwheel, position for testing). The fuel
does continue to flow for quite a while, but is slower & frothy toward
the end - not good for full power ! :-)

When they do find problems with some kits, it is almost always some
restriction in the line, like a fine screen, or a small valve....
How's your gascolator screen ? Tank finger screens ?
Of course, you didn't slosh your tanks !!

I'm sure you'll be OK !! Perhaps just removing the flow meter will do it

..

......bobp

----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 06:58 PM 5/31/99 -0700, you wrote:

Thanks, Bob. Yeah, I was impressed too, that it was still flowing when

only 1 gal

was left. It stopped soon after that, though, with about 1/2 gal left to

drain out

the tank fuel drain. However, I should point out I actually put in 3 gal

US to

start, but the flow was almost the same until it quit. I will have to try

it again

with about 5 or 10 gal. I hope that is all that is wrong. As mentioned in

a

previous

message, I do have a Flowscan meter, which I thought might be slowing

down

my flow.

I really don't want to have to install a pump, but I don't want the thing

to quit on

me either right after take-off on max climb.

Bob Patterson wrote:

Gee, Walter - I'm surprised you got ANY flow with only ONE gallon in

the

tank !!! We often find that the flow gets 'bubbly' at about 3 gallons
remaining !!

When you do the flow test, start with 5 or 10 gallons, remove the

line at

the carb., and let it run into a can. Watch the output, while timing

the

flow.

When the flow starts to get frothy, mark the guage as 'empty' - you

might be

surprised to find this mark is about 1/2" ABOVE the bottom of the guage

!!!!

This is not uncommon ....

Hope this helps !
.......bobp

FWIW - I don't know ANYONE who uses a fuel pump on Lycosaurus-powered

Rebels.

---------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------

---

At 06:05 AM 5/30/99 -0700, you wrote:

maximum

angle.

each

tank,

while

both

was an 8

it with

getting

add more

straight

angle

get?

flow

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Message-Id: <E10qqCp-0007mt-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:36:11 -0400


Might be a problem, if they're out of business !! :-)

Just a wild thought - perhaps you could still use this flow meter, by
using a "Y" connector before & after it. This would give a 3/8" line,
bypassing the flow meter, so flow would not be impeded. but should give
<some> flow through the meter. You would have to re-calibrate the readout
somehow, but it would at least give you <some> relative number that you
could use to calculate fuel flow .......

-------------------------------------------------------------
------------- ------------------------------- --------
\ \ / /
\ \------------ --------/ /
\----------- FLOW METER --------/


Just a thought ......

......bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------------------------------
At 01:38 PM 6/6/99 -0700, you wrote:

Just finished doing some more tests today, and it turns out that my fuel

flow meter is

the problem. With it installed in the fuel line, the best I could get was

12 imp. gals

per hour on one tank. I removed it, and then got 24 imp. gals per hour,

which in now in

line with other Rebels.

I found that the orifice size on the meter is definitely quite small, so

obviously is

not designed for this amount of fuel flow. The product is a Floscan model

201. Anybody

familiar with these? It came with a DPS fuel gauge that I bought a number

of years ago.

Unfortunately, they are no longer in business. I paid good money for this

instrument,

though, so would like to get a higher capacity flow meter that will work

with it. Does

anyone know what model I need or where these can be obtained?

Walter Klatt wrote:

Thanks again, Bob. At least now I know that it should work with just

gravity feed.

My wings are off again now, so will be awhile before I get to try some

more tests.

Yes, I did slosh, but not with the finger screens in! I will check that

gascolator,

too. I got it from MAM, so assume it's the right one.

Bob Patterson wrote:

It may very well be that the flow meter IS the problem !! I just

checked

with one of our AIR-ABA inspectors here - the MINIMUM fuel flow that

they

will accept (regardless of engine choice !) is 24 gallons/hour, and

they

prefer 30 gph !!

Every Rebel tested so far has passed, with no problem (they just

use

the normal tail-down, on the tailwheel, position for testing). The fuel
does continue to flow for quite a while, but is slower & frothy toward
the end - not good for full power ! :-)

When they do find problems with some kits, it is almost always

some

restriction in the line, like a fine screen, or a small valve....
How's your gascolator screen ? Tank finger screens ?
Of course, you didn't slosh your tanks !!

I'm sure you'll be OK !! Perhaps just removing the flow meter will do

it ..

......bobp

----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

At 06:58 PM 5/31/99 -0700, you wrote:

when

only 1 gal

to

drain out

gal US to

try

it again

in a

previous

down

my flow.

thing

to quit on

in the

gallons

the

line at

the

flow.

might be

guage !!!!

Lycosaurus-powered Rebels.
---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------

your

maximum

angle.

in each

while

both

There

was an 8

tried

it with

getting

heaps.

will

add more

straight

angle

you get?

fuel flow

*----------------------------------------------------*
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Message-Id: <E10rgph-0004G4-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 07:47:50 -0400


Possibly, but I'd really prefer to avoid the complication of a pump,
and extra plumbing. The fuel consumption will be about 8 gph, and it's
not a big effort to tell when you have to land for refuelling !! :-)

Normally, landing is dictated by other factors <grin>, before the fuel
gets low !! My flying style is 'keep it simple' - my favorite description
is: "We've been all over North America with just a clean windshield and
an ESSO road map !" Try to avoid the extra instruments - especially if
they're messing up fuel flow !! ;-)

.......bobp

--------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
--
At 08:52 PM 6/6/99 -0700, you wrote:

Another option if I can't find the right flow sensor, I might try put in a

small

booster pump between the sensor and the carburetor, and use it only for

take-off or

full power climb. I assume that would make it legal.

Bob Patterson wrote:

Might be a problem, if they're out of business !! :-)

Just a wild thought - perhaps you could still use this flow meter, by
using a "Y" connector before & after it. This would give a 3/8" line,
bypassing the flow meter, so flow would not be impeded. but should give
<some> flow through the meter. You would have to re-calibrate the readout
somehow, but it would at least give you <some> relative number that you
could use to calculate fuel flow .......

-------------------------------------------------------------
------------- ------------------------------- --------
\ \ / /
\ \------------ --------/ /
\----------- FLOW METER --------/

Just a thought ......

......bobp

----------------------------orig.----------------------------------------

---

At 01:38 PM 6/6/99 -0700, you wrote:

Just finished doing some more tests today, and it turns out that my fuel

flow meter is

the problem. With it installed in the fuel line, the best I could get

was

12 imp. gals

per hour on one tank. I removed it, and then got 24 imp. gals per hour,

which is now in

line with other Rebels.

I found that the orifice size on the meter is definitely quite small, so

obviously is

not designed for this amount of fuel flow. The product is a Floscan

model

201. Anybody

familiar with these? It came with a DPS fuel gauge that I bought a

number

of years ago.

Unfortunately, they are no longer in business. I paid good money for

this

instrument,

though, so would like to get a higher capacity flow meter that will work

with it. Does

anyone know what model I need or where these can be obtained?

Walter Klatt wrote:

gravity feed.

more tests.

that

gascolator,

checked

they

they

just use

fuel

toward

some

do

it ..

----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------

when

left to

3

gal US to

to try

mentioned

in a

slowing down

thing

gallon

in the

gallons

remove the

timing the

you

might be

guage !!!!

.......bobp

Lycosaurus-powered Rebels.
---------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------

---

is your

climb

angle.

US

in each

US,

while

There

tried

am

getting

heaps.

will

straight

climb

angle

did

you get?

fuel flow

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:05:35 -0400
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Brian Cross <rebelair@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
In-Reply-To: <001001beb9e5$c0845560$aa1915cb@dialup.voyager.co.nz>
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Hi Alister!

Thanks for your reply.

At cruise, you get about 10 inches of water column pressure by the 'ram'
air effect. In psi, (lbs/square inch), this approximately 10/27 psi. This
a significant increase in pressure.

I have also fitted the 'J' tubes to my fuel caps. What I was checking with
you Alister is whether or not your vents faced into the airflow like a
pitot tube or whether they were a complete J and the tip faced down again.
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like you are right. With this setup,
a cross vent seems redundant.

Thanks for staying in touch.

Best Regards

Brian #328R

At 11:41 AM 19/06/99 +1200, you wrote:

Hi Brian,

I don't think I am doing anything different than what happens when you

would

fit the cross venting recommended by Murphy, Don't they use an inverted J
tube cut a t a 45degree angle facing into the airflow?

I didn't want to go to the trouble of cross venting as I had already fitted
my headliner kit, so I just fitted one of these vents on each fuel cap.

they

work fine, they are easy to check that they are clear (just blow through
them when refueling) and you have two of them so you have some redundancy!

Facing into the airflow there must be some 'ram effect' just the same as

the

airspeed pitot, it won't be much. I am not sure of the figures, but even
1lb/sq/in would be enough to give about 1ft of head at the carb. ( I think!
someone out there will know the figures.)

Once again if you go this way, when refueling and preflighting, check the
vents are facing forward. It becomes second nature.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Cross <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Friday, June 18, 1999 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Hi Alister

Could you please tell me specifically about your 'J' fuel cap vents? Is

it

really an inverted J or does it point into the wind? It sounded like from
your earlier description that it must point into the wind as you are
getting an increase in pressure from the 'ram' air effect.

Best Regards

Brian #328R

At 11:18 AM 31/05/99 +1200, you wrote:

I just made them up and bronzed them onto the caps, My tank vents are not
linked to equalize pressure in both tanks, but they still drain very

evenly.

Just remember to face the breather to the front after refueling!!!

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

roughly

is

bigger ID also

recently

at

that

in

most

obviously,

up

and would inverted will

pressure

has

each

onto

125hrs

to

your

angle. each

while

There

was

tried

it getting

heaps.

add straight angle get? flow *----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

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The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
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Archives located at:
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:11:19 -0400
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Brian Cross <rebelair@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
In-Reply-To: <E10v9YX-0000Dn-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Bob

I don't believe the ram effect is imaginary at normal cruise. My
calculations show that at normal cruise, 10 inches of water column pressure
is added. Assuming the distance from the tank to the carb is no more than
40 inches, a minimum of 25% increase of pressure is realized at the carb.
This is probably on the light side but would have to verify with actual
measurements.

Unless you have a faulty carb float bowl, this difference is pressure will
make no change in the mixture.

Regards

Brian #328R



At 09:04 PM 18/06/99 -0400, you wrote:

Brian,
If you have a look at FINR, you'll see that it has tiny little J
vents - because it has flush caps that were perhaps not adequately vented.
They ARE J shaped - the 'ram' effect is largely imaginary, as pitot air
pressures are very small. In any case, a ram effect would be undesirable,
because it could cause excessively rich mixtures at higher speeds !

If the standard filler caps are used, and the vent holes opened up
with a 1/16" drill, and the original 1/8" holes drilled at the front
and back of the filler neck, up at the top, where they are sheltered from
rain by the filler cap, there should be no problem with venting. The
cross venting is added insurance, in case one set of vents is blocked.

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 11:41 AM 6/19/99 +1200, you wrote:

Hi Brian,

I don't think I am doing anything different than what happens when you

would

fit the cross venting recommended by Murphy, Don't they use an inverted J
tube cut a t a 45degree angle facing into the airflow?

I didn't want to go to the trouble of cross venting as I had already

fitted

my headliner kit, so I just fitted one of these vents on each fuel cap.

they

work fine, they are easy to check that they are clear (just blow through
them when refueling) and you have two of them so you have some redundancy!

Facing into the airflow there must be some 'ram effect' just the same as

the

airspeed pitot, it won't be much. I am not sure of the figures, but even
1lb/sq/in would be enough to give about 1ft of head at the carb. ( I

think!

someone out there will know the figures.)

Once again if you go this way, when refueling and preflighting, check the
vents are facing forward. It becomes second nature.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Cross <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Friday, June 18, 1999 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Hi Alister

Could you please tell me specifically about your 'J' fuel cap vents? Is

it

really an inverted J or does it point into the wind? It sounded like

from

your earlier description that it must point into the wind as you are
getting an increase in pressure from the 'ram' air effect.

Best Regards

Brian #328R

At 11:18 AM 31/05/99 +1200, you wrote:

not

evenly.

is

recently

that

most

up

pressure

each

air

125hrs

your

in

while

There

tried

heaps.

will

you

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Message-Id: <E10vuQL-0000pA-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 23:07:06 -0400


Sorry, physics is not my strong suit --- but isn't this 25% increase in
pressure still a very small number in terms of psi pressure ?? Compared to
the 4 psi of a fuel pump ??

......bobp

--------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 12:11 AM 6/20/99 -0400, you wrote:

Hi Bob

I don't believe the ram effect is imaginary at normal cruise. My
calculations show that at normal cruise, 10 inches of water column pressure
is added. Assuming the distance from the tank to the carb is no more than
40 inches, a minimum of 25% increase of pressure is realized at the carb.
This is probably on the light side but would have to verify with actual
measurements.

Unless you have a faulty carb float bowl, this difference is pressure will
make no change in the mixture.

Regards

Brian #328R



At 09:04 PM 18/06/99 -0400, you wrote:

Brian,
If you have a look at FINR, you'll see that it has tiny little J
vents - because it has flush caps that were perhaps not adequately vented.
They ARE J shaped - the 'ram' effect is largely imaginary, as pitot air
pressures are very small. In any case, a ram effect would be undesirable,
because it could cause excessively rich mixtures at higher speeds !

If the standard filler caps are used, and the vent holes opened up
with a 1/16" drill, and the original 1/8" holes drilled at the front
and back of the filler neck, up at the top, where they are sheltered from
rain by the filler cap, there should be no problem with venting. The
cross venting is added insurance, in case one set of vents is blocked.

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 11:41 AM 6/19/99 +1200, you wrote:

Hi Brian,

I don't think I am doing anything different than what happens when you

would

fit the cross venting recommended by Murphy, Don't they use an inverted J
tube cut a t a 45degree angle facing into the airflow?

I didn't want to go to the trouble of cross venting as I had already

fitted

my headliner kit, so I just fitted one of these vents on each fuel cap.

they

work fine, they are easy to check that they are clear (just blow through
them when refueling) and you have two of them so you have some

redundancy!

Facing into the airflow there must be some 'ram effect' just the same as

the

airspeed pitot, it won't be much. I am not sure of the figures, but even
1lb/sq/in would be enough to give about 1ft of head at the carb. ( I

think!

someone out there will know the figures.)

Once again if you go this way, when refueling and preflighting, check the
vents are facing forward. It becomes second nature.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Cross <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Friday, June 18, 1999 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

it

from

not

evenly.

that

is

I

recently

that

most

up

times

climb

this

pressure each

air

125hrs

your

in

while

There

tried

heaps.

will

you

fuel

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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