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Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

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Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 13:47:06 +1200
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Hi there,

Fuel flow is straight gravity, in the three point position I am getting
about 115lts per hour out of each tank individually, which is heaps.

I have positively vented my tanks ( vent into airstream) which will add more
'head' to the engine.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Do Rebels with Lycoming O320's use an auxiliary fuel pump, or straight
gravity feed from the wings? If gravity feed, what maximum climb angle
did you use for your fuel flow test, and what test results did you get?

I am testing mine now, and fear that I may not have adequate fuel flow
with gravity feed at full power and maximum climb angle.

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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Alister, how full were your tanks when you got that flow? What is your
maximum
climb angle?

In my tests, I set the plane on an incline to get a 15 degree climb angle.
That's considerably below the 3 point position. With only 1 gal US in each
tank,
I got the following results. One tank open gave me only 12 gph US, while
both
gave me 14.
At cruise level, I got 18 gph US with one tank and 19 with both. There was
an 8
'' difference in "head" between the two positions. I haven't yet tried it
with
more fuel in the tanks.

Alister Yeoman wrote:
Hi there,

Fuel flow is straight gravity, in the three point position I am getting
about 115lts per hour out of each tank individually, which is heaps.

I have positively vented my tanks ( vent into airstream) which will add
more
'head' to the engine.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Do Rebels with Lycoming O320's use an auxiliary fuel pump, or straight
gravity feed from the wings? If gravity feed, what maximum climb angle
did you use for your fuel flow test, and what test results did you get?

I am testing mine now, and fear that I may not have adequate fuel flow
with gravity feed at full power and maximum climb angle.

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 08:55:38 +1200
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My tanks where tested when about 1/4 full, they were done again recently at
the 100 hr check, same results. 115 lts per hr individually, whats that in
US gallons? a bit over 25 gals per hour?

I found additional fuel in the tank made very little difference, the most
head is achieved in the drop between the tank and the firewall, obviously,
adding fuel to the tank didn't do much at all to flows.

I couldn't actually tell you what my maximum climb angle is, but one up and
light on fuel it is very steep!

Didn't some of the earlier kits have fuel shutoff valves that needed
drilling out because of flow problems?

Your flows seem a little low, you would need a minimum of 1 1/2 times
maximum engine demand. Say, 70 lts per hour minimum.

I was initially myself a little concerned that a steep angle of climb would
restrict fuel flow to the engine, that is one of the reasons I put inverted
J tubes on my fuel caps to positively vent the fuel tanks.

Even at climb speed there will be a positive pressure in the tanks
maybe 1/2 lb. --some one out will know the correct figure.) and this will
counteract any reduction in head by the increase in angle of climb.
( when pressure testing the fuel tanks for leaks, I found a 2lb pressure has
a head of around 1200mm.)


For the record, I put five fuel drains in, one in each tank, one on each
side at the lowest point and one in the gasculator ( I ducted cold air onto
the gasculator as well) forward of the firewall. I have done about 125hrs to
date and haven't had a blip out of the engine--very reassuring!

Hope this helps.

Alister
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Alister, how full were your tanks when you got that flow? What is your
maximum
climb angle?

In my tests, I set the plane on an incline to get a 15 degree climb angle.
That's considerably below the 3 point position. With only 1 gal US in each
tank,
I got the following results. One tank open gave me only 12 gph US, while
both
gave me 14.
At cruise level, I got 18 gph US with one tank and 19 with both. There was
an 8
'' difference in "head" between the two positions. I haven't yet tried it
with
more fuel in the tanks.

Alister Yeoman wrote:
Hi there,

Fuel flow is straight gravity, in the three point position I am getting
about 115lts per hour out of each tank individually, which is heaps.

I have positively vented my tanks ( vent into airstream) which will add
more
'head' to the engine.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Do Rebels with Lycoming O320's use an auxiliary fuel pump, or straight
gravity feed from the wings? If gravity feed, what maximum climb angle
did you use for your fuel flow test, and what test results did you get?

I am testing mine now, and fear that I may not have adequate fuel flow
with gravity feed at full power and maximum climb angle.

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*

Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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Thanks Alister. That is good information. Sounds like you are getting
roughly
double my fuel flows. I do have a Flowscan fuel meter. I wonder if that is
restricting my flows by requiring extra pressure. I did change to the bigger
ID
shut-off valves instead of drilling them out, so should be OK there. I also
have the same 5 fuel drains. Where do you get these J tube fuel caps?

Any other experiences from Rebel O320 builders?

Alister Yeoman wrote:
My tanks where tested when about 1/4 full, they were done again recently
at
the 100 hr check, same results. 115 lts per hr individually, whats that in
US gallons? a bit over 25 gals per hour?

I found additional fuel in the tank made very little difference, the most
head is achieved in the drop between the tank and the firewall, obviously,
adding fuel to the tank didn't do much at all to flows.

I couldn't actually tell you what my maximum climb angle is, but one up
and
light on fuel it is very steep!

Didn't some of the earlier kits have fuel shutoff valves that needed
drilling out because of flow problems?

Your flows seem a little low, you would need a minimum of 1 1/2 times
maximum engine demand. Say, 70 lts per hour minimum.

I was initially myself a little concerned that a steep angle of climb
would
restrict fuel flow to the engine, that is one of the reasons I put
inverted
J tubes on my fuel caps to positively vent the fuel tanks.

Even at climb speed there will be a positive pressure in the tanks
maybe 1/2 lb. --some one out will know the correct figure.) and this will
counteract any reduction in head by the increase in angle of climb.
( when pressure testing the fuel tanks for leaks, I found a 2lb pressure
has
a head of around 1200mm.)

For the record, I put five fuel drains in, one in each tank, one on each
side at the lowest point and one in the gasculator ( I ducted cold air
onto
the gasculator as well) forward of the firewall. I have done about 125hrs
to
date and haven't had a blip out of the engine--very reassuring!

Hope this helps.

Alister
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Alister, how full were your tanks when you got that flow? What is your
maximum
climb angle?

In my tests, I set the plane on an incline to get a 15 degree climb
angle.
That's considerably below the 3 point position. With only 1 gal US in
each
tank,
I got the following results. One tank open gave me only 12 gph US, while
both
gave me 14.
At cruise level, I got 18 gph US with one tank and 19 with both. There
was
an 8
'' difference in "head" between the two positions. I haven't yet tried it
with
more fuel in the tanks.

Alister Yeoman wrote:
Hi there,

Fuel flow is straight gravity, in the three point position I am getting
about 115lts per hour out of each tank individually, which is heaps.

I have positively vented my tanks ( vent into airstream) which will add
more
'head' to the engine.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
get?


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Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel Builders List" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
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I just made them up and bronzed them onto the caps, My tank vents are not
linked to equalize pressure in both tanks, but they still drain very evenly.
Just remember to face the breather to the front after refueling!!!

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Thanks Alister. That is good information. Sounds like you are getting
roughly
double my fuel flows. I do have a Flowscan fuel meter. I wonder if that is
restricting my flows by requiring extra pressure. I did change to the
bigger ID
shut-off valves instead of drilling them out, so should be OK there. I
also
have the same 5 fuel drains. Where do you get these J tube fuel caps?

Any other experiences from Rebel O320 builders?

Alister Yeoman wrote:
My tanks where tested when about 1/4 full, they were done again recently
at
the 100 hr check, same results. 115 lts per hr individually, whats that
in
US gallons? a bit over 25 gals per hour?

I found additional fuel in the tank made very little difference, the most
head is achieved in the drop between the tank and the firewall,
obviously,
adding fuel to the tank didn't do much at all to flows.

I couldn't actually tell you what my maximum climb angle is, but one up
and
light on fuel it is very steep!

Didn't some of the earlier kits have fuel shutoff valves that needed
drilling out because of flow problems?

Your flows seem a little low, you would need a minimum of 1 1/2 times
maximum engine demand. Say, 70 lts per hour minimum.

I was initially myself a little concerned that a steep angle of climb
would
restrict fuel flow to the engine, that is one of the reasons I put
inverted
J tubes on my fuel caps to positively vent the fuel tanks.

Even at climb speed there will be a positive pressure in the tanks
maybe 1/2 lb. --some one out will know the correct figure.) and this
will
counteract any reduction in head by the increase in angle of climb.
( when pressure testing the fuel tanks for leaks, I found a 2lb pressure
has
a head of around 1200mm.)

For the record, I put five fuel drains in, one in each tank, one on each
side at the lowest point and one in the gasculator ( I ducted cold air
onto
the gasculator as well) forward of the firewall. I have done about 125hrs
to
date and haven't had a blip out of the engine--very reassuring!

Hope this helps.

Alister
-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Alister, how full were your tanks when you got that flow? What is your
maximum
climb angle?

In my tests, I set the plane on an incline to get a 15 degree climb
angle.
That's considerably below the 3 point position. With only 1 gal US in
each
tank,
I got the following results. One tank open gave me only 12 gph US, while
both
gave me 14.
At cruise level, I got 18 gph US with one tank and 19 with both. There
was
an 8
'' difference in "head" between the two positions. I haven't yet tried
it
with
more fuel in the tanks.

Alister Yeoman wrote:
getting
add
more
straight
angle
get?
flow
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*


Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Message-Id: <E10oZqT-00000b-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 17:43:45 -0400


Gee, Walter - I'm surprised you got ANY flow with only ONE gallon in the
tank !!! We often find that the flow gets 'bubbly' at about 3 gallons
remaining !!

When you do the flow test, start with 5 or 10 gallons, remove the line
at
the carb., and let it run into a can. Watch the output, while timing the
flow.
When the flow starts to get frothy, mark the guage as 'empty' - you might be
surprised to find this mark is about 1/2" ABOVE the bottom of the guage !!!!
This is not uncommon ....

Hope this helps !
.......bobp

FWIW - I don't know ANYONE who uses a fuel pump on Lycosaurus-powered
Rebels.

---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 06:05 AM 5/30/99 -0700, you wrote:
Alister, how full were your tanks when you got that flow? What is your
maximum
climb angle?

In my tests, I set the plane on an incline to get a 15 degree climb angle.
That's considerably below the 3 point position. With only 1 gal US in each
tank,
I got the following results. One tank open gave me only 12 gph US, while
both
gave me 14.
At cruise level, I got 18 gph US with one tank and 19 with both. There was
an 8
'' difference in "head" between the two positions. I haven't yet tried it
with
more fuel in the tanks.

Alister Yeoman wrote:
Hi there,

Fuel flow is straight gravity, in the three point position I am getting
about 115lts per hour out of each tank individually, which is heaps.

I have positively vented my tanks ( vent into airstream) which will add
more
'head' to the engine.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Do Rebels with Lycoming O320's use an auxiliary fuel pump, or straight
gravity feed from the wings? If gravity feed, what maximum climb angle
did you use for your fuel flow test, and what test results did you get?

I am testing mine now, and fear that I may not have adequate fuel flow
with gravity feed at full power and maximum climb angle.

*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*
*----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*----------------------------------------------------*



Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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Thanks again, Bob. At least now I know that it should work with just gravity
feed.
My wings are off again now, so will be awhile before I get to try some more
tests.
Yes, I did slosh, but not with the finger screens in! I will check that
gascolator,
too. I got it from MAM, so assume it's the right one.

Bob Patterson wrote:
It may very well be that the flow meter IS the problem !! I just checked
with one of our AIR-ABA inspectors here - the MINIMUM fuel flow that they
will accept (regardless of engine choice !) is 24 gallons/hour, and they
prefer 30 gph !!

Every Rebel tested so far has passed, with no problem (they just use
the normal tail-down, on the tailwheel, position for testing). The fuel
does continue to flow for quite a while, but is slower & frothy toward
the end - not good for full power ! :-)

When they do find problems with some kits, it is almost always some
restriction in the line, like a fine screen, or a small valve....
How's your gascolator screen ? Tank finger screens ?
Of course, you didn't slosh your tanks !!

I'm sure you'll be OK !! Perhaps just removing the flow meter will do it
..
......bobp

----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 06:58 PM 5/31/99 -0700, you wrote:
Thanks, Bob. Yeah, I was impressed too, that it was still flowing when
only 1 gal
was left. It stopped soon after that, though, with about 1/2 gal left to
drain out
the tank fuel drain. However, I should point out I actually put in 3 gal
US to
start, but the flow was almost the same until it quit. I will have to try
it again
with about 5 or 10 gal. I hope that is all that is wrong. As mentioned in
a
previous
message, I do have a Flowscan meter, which I thought might be slowing
down
my flow.
I really don't want to have to install a pump, but I don't want the thing
to quit on
me either right after take-off on max climb.

Bob Patterson wrote:
Gee, Walter - I'm surprised you got ANY flow with only ONE gallon in
the
tank !!! We often find that the flow gets 'bubbly' at about 3 gallons
remaining !!

When you do the flow test, start with 5 or 10 gallons, remove the
line at
the carb., and let it run into a can. Watch the output, while timing
the
flow.
When the flow starts to get frothy, mark the guage as 'empty' - you
might be
surprised to find this mark is about 1/2" ABOVE the bottom of the guage
!!!!
This is not uncommon ....

Hope this helps !
.......bobp

FWIW - I don't know ANYONE who uses a fuel pump on Lycosaurus-powered
Rebels.
---------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
---
At 06:05 AM 5/30/99 -0700, you wrote:
maximum
angle.
each
tank,
while
both
was an 8
it with
getting
add more
straight
angle
get?
flow
*----------------------------------------------------*
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Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Message-Id: <E10qqCp-0007mt-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:36:11 -0400


Might be a problem, if they're out of business !! :-)

Just a wild thought - perhaps you could still use this flow meter, by
using a "Y" connector before & after it. This would give a 3/8" line,
bypassing the flow meter, so flow would not be impeded. but should give
<some> flow through the meter. You would have to re-calibrate the readout
somehow, but it would at least give you <some> relative number that you
could use to calculate fuel flow .......

-------------------------------------------------------------
------------- ------------------------------- --------
\ \ / /
\ \------------ --------/ /
\----------- FLOW METER --------/


Just a thought ......

......bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------------------------------
At 01:38 PM 6/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
Just finished doing some more tests today, and it turns out that my fuel
flow meter is
the problem. With it installed in the fuel line, the best I could get was
12 imp. gals
per hour on one tank. I removed it, and then got 24 imp. gals per hour,
which in now in
line with other Rebels.

I found that the orifice size on the meter is definitely quite small, so
obviously is
not designed for this amount of fuel flow. The product is a Floscan model
201. Anybody
familiar with these? It came with a DPS fuel gauge that I bought a number
of years ago.
Unfortunately, they are no longer in business. I paid good money for this
instrument,
though, so would like to get a higher capacity flow meter that will work
with it. Does
anyone know what model I need or where these can be obtained?

Walter Klatt wrote:
Thanks again, Bob. At least now I know that it should work with just
gravity feed.
My wings are off again now, so will be awhile before I get to try some
more tests.
Yes, I did slosh, but not with the finger screens in! I will check that
gascolator,
too. I got it from MAM, so assume it's the right one.

Bob Patterson wrote:
It may very well be that the flow meter IS the problem !! I just
checked
with one of our AIR-ABA inspectors here - the MINIMUM fuel flow that
they
will accept (regardless of engine choice !) is 24 gallons/hour, and
they
prefer 30 gph !!

Every Rebel tested so far has passed, with no problem (they just
use
the normal tail-down, on the tailwheel, position for testing). The fuel
does continue to flow for quite a while, but is slower & frothy toward
the end - not good for full power ! :-)

When they do find problems with some kits, it is almost always
some
restriction in the line, like a fine screen, or a small valve....
How's your gascolator screen ? Tank finger screens ?
Of course, you didn't slosh your tanks !!

I'm sure you'll be OK !! Perhaps just removing the flow meter will do
it ..
......bobp
----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 06:58 PM 5/31/99 -0700, you wrote:
when
only 1 gal
to
drain out
gal US to
try
it again
in a
previous
down
my flow.
thing
to quit on
in the
gallons
the
line at
the
flow.
might be
guage !!!!
Lycosaurus-powered Rebels.
---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
your
maximum
angle.
in each
while
both
There
was an 8
tried
it with
getting
heaps.
will
add more
straight
angle
you get?
fuel flow
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Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Message-Id: <E10rgph-0004G4-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 07:47:50 -0400


Possibly, but I'd really prefer to avoid the complication of a pump,
and extra plumbing. The fuel consumption will be about 8 gph, and it's
not a big effort to tell when you have to land for refuelling !! :-)

Normally, landing is dictated by other factors <grin>, before the fuel
gets low !! My flying style is 'keep it simple' - my favorite description
is: "We've been all over North America with just a clean windshield and
an ESSO road map !" Try to avoid the extra instruments - especially if
they're messing up fuel flow !! ;-)

.......bobp

--------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
--
At 08:52 PM 6/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
Another option if I can't find the right flow sensor, I might try put in a
small
booster pump between the sensor and the carburetor, and use it only for
take-off or
full power climb. I assume that would make it legal.

Bob Patterson wrote:
Might be a problem, if they're out of business !! :-)

Just a wild thought - perhaps you could still use this flow meter, by
using a "Y" connector before & after it. This would give a 3/8" line,
bypassing the flow meter, so flow would not be impeded. but should give
<some> flow through the meter. You would have to re-calibrate the readout
somehow, but it would at least give you <some> relative number that you
could use to calculate fuel flow .......

-------------------------------------------------------------
------------- ------------------------------- --------
\ \ / /
\ \------------ --------/ /
\----------- FLOW METER --------/

Just a thought ......

......bobp

----------------------------orig.----------------------------------------
---
At 01:38 PM 6/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
Just finished doing some more tests today, and it turns out that my fuel
flow meter is
the problem. With it installed in the fuel line, the best I could get
was
12 imp. gals
per hour on one tank. I removed it, and then got 24 imp. gals per hour,
which is now in
line with other Rebels.

I found that the orifice size on the meter is definitely quite small, so
obviously is
not designed for this amount of fuel flow. The product is a Floscan
model
201. Anybody
familiar with these? It came with a DPS fuel gauge that I bought a
number
of years ago.
Unfortunately, they are no longer in business. I paid good money for
this
instrument,
though, so would like to get a higher capacity flow meter that will work
with it. Does
anyone know what model I need or where these can be obtained?

Walter Klatt wrote:
gravity feed.
more tests.
that
gascolator,
checked
they
they
just use
fuel
toward
some
do
it ..
----------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
when
left to
3
gal US to
to try
mentioned
in a
slowing down
thing
gallon
in the
gallons
remove the
timing the
you
might be
guage !!!!
.......bobp
Lycosaurus-powered Rebels.
---------------------------------orig.-----------------------------------
---
is your
climb
angle.
US
in each
US,
while
There
tried
am
getting
heaps.
will
straight
climb
angle
did
you get?
fuel flow
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Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:05:35 -0400
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Brian Cross <rebelair@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
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Hi Alister!

Thanks for your reply.

At cruise, you get about 10 inches of water column pressure by the 'ram'
air effect. In psi, (lbs/square inch), this approximately 10/27 psi. This
a significant increase in pressure.

I have also fitted the 'J' tubes to my fuel caps. What I was checking with
you Alister is whether or not your vents faced into the airflow like a
pitot tube or whether they were a complete J and the tip faced down again.
Thanks for the clarification. Sounds like you are right. With this setup,
a cross vent seems redundant.

Thanks for staying in touch.

Best Regards

Brian #328R

At 11:41 AM 19/06/99 +1200, you wrote:
Hi Brian,

I don't think I am doing anything different than what happens when you
would
fit the cross venting recommended by Murphy, Don't they use an inverted J
tube cut a t a 45degree angle facing into the airflow?

I didn't want to go to the trouble of cross venting as I had already fitted
my headliner kit, so I just fitted one of these vents on each fuel cap.
they
work fine, they are easy to check that they are clear (just blow through
them when refueling) and you have two of them so you have some redundancy!

Facing into the airflow there must be some 'ram effect' just the same as
the
airspeed pitot, it won't be much. I am not sure of the figures, but even
1lb/sq/in would be enough to give about 1ft of head at the carb. ( I think!
someone out there will know the figures.)

Once again if you go this way, when refueling and preflighting, check the
vents are facing forward. It becomes second nature.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Cross <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Friday, June 18, 1999 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Hi Alister

Could you please tell me specifically about your 'J' fuel cap vents? Is
it
really an inverted J or does it point into the wind? It sounded like from
your earlier description that it must point into the wind as you are
getting an increase in pressure from the 'ram' air effect.

Best Regards

Brian #328R

At 11:18 AM 31/05/99 +1200, you wrote:
I just made them up and bronzed them onto the caps, My tank vents are not
linked to equalize pressure in both tanks, but they still drain very
evenly.
Just remember to face the breather to the front after refueling!!!

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Klatt <Walter_Klatt@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: (Murphy Rebel Builders List) <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

roughly
is
bigger ID also
recently
at
that
in
most
obviously,
up
and would inverted will
pressure
has
each
onto
125hrs
to
your
angle. each
while
There
was
tried
it getting
heaps.
add straight angle get? flow *----------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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Archives located at:
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Archives located at:
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Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:11:19 -0400
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Brian Cross <rebelair@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
In-Reply-To: <E10v9YX-0000Dn-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Bob

I don't believe the ram effect is imaginary at normal cruise. My
calculations show that at normal cruise, 10 inches of water column pressure
is added. Assuming the distance from the tank to the carb is no more than
40 inches, a minimum of 25% increase of pressure is realized at the carb.
This is probably on the light side but would have to verify with actual
measurements.

Unless you have a faulty carb float bowl, this difference is pressure will
make no change in the mixture.

Regards

Brian #328R



At 09:04 PM 18/06/99 -0400, you wrote:
Brian,
If you have a look at FINR, you'll see that it has tiny little J
vents - because it has flush caps that were perhaps not adequately vented.
They ARE J shaped - the 'ram' effect is largely imaginary, as pitot air
pressures are very small. In any case, a ram effect would be undesirable,
because it could cause excessively rich mixtures at higher speeds !

If the standard filler caps are used, and the vent holes opened up
with a 1/16" drill, and the original 1/8" holes drilled at the front
and back of the filler neck, up at the top, where they are sheltered from
rain by the filler cap, there should be no problem with venting. The
cross venting is added insurance, in case one set of vents is blocked.

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 11:41 AM 6/19/99 +1200, you wrote:
Hi Brian,

I don't think I am doing anything different than what happens when you
would
fit the cross venting recommended by Murphy, Don't they use an inverted J
tube cut a t a 45degree angle facing into the airflow?

I didn't want to go to the trouble of cross venting as I had already
fitted
my headliner kit, so I just fitted one of these vents on each fuel cap.
they
work fine, they are easy to check that they are clear (just blow through
them when refueling) and you have two of them so you have some redundancy!

Facing into the airflow there must be some 'ram effect' just the same as
the
airspeed pitot, it won't be much. I am not sure of the figures, but even
1lb/sq/in would be enough to give about 1ft of head at the carb. ( I
think!
someone out there will know the figures.)

Once again if you go this way, when refueling and preflighting, check the
vents are facing forward. It becomes second nature.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Cross <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Friday, June 18, 1999 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Hi Alister

Could you please tell me specifically about your 'J' fuel cap vents? Is
it
really an inverted J or does it point into the wind? It sounded like
from
your earlier description that it must point into the wind as you are
getting an increase in pressure from the 'ram' air effect.

Best Regards

Brian #328R

At 11:18 AM 31/05/99 +1200, you wrote:
not
evenly.
is
recently
that
most
up
pressure
each
air
125hrs
your
in
while
There
tried
heaps.
will
you
*----------------------------------------------------*
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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Archives located at:
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Mike Davis

Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

Post by Mike Davis » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel Builders List)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320
Message-Id: <E10vuQL-0000pA-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 23:07:06 -0400


Sorry, physics is not my strong suit --- but isn't this 25% increase in
pressure still a very small number in terms of psi pressure ?? Compared to
the 4 psi of a fuel pump ??

......bobp

--------------------------------orig.---------------------------------------
At 12:11 AM 6/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
Hi Bob

I don't believe the ram effect is imaginary at normal cruise. My
calculations show that at normal cruise, 10 inches of water column pressure
is added. Assuming the distance from the tank to the carb is no more than
40 inches, a minimum of 25% increase of pressure is realized at the carb.
This is probably on the light side but would have to verify with actual
measurements.

Unless you have a faulty carb float bowl, this difference is pressure will
make no change in the mixture.

Regards

Brian #328R



At 09:04 PM 18/06/99 -0400, you wrote:
Brian,
If you have a look at FINR, you'll see that it has tiny little J
vents - because it has flush caps that were perhaps not adequately vented.
They ARE J shaped - the 'ram' effect is largely imaginary, as pitot air
pressures are very small. In any case, a ram effect would be undesirable,
because it could cause excessively rich mixtures at higher speeds !

If the standard filler caps are used, and the vent holes opened up
with a 1/16" drill, and the original 1/8" holes drilled at the front
and back of the filler neck, up at the top, where they are sheltered from
rain by the filler cap, there should be no problem with venting. The
cross venting is added insurance, in case one set of vents is blocked.

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 11:41 AM 6/19/99 +1200, you wrote:
Hi Brian,

I don't think I am doing anything different than what happens when you
would
fit the cross venting recommended by Murphy, Don't they use an inverted J
tube cut a t a 45degree angle facing into the airflow?

I didn't want to go to the trouble of cross venting as I had already
fitted
my headliner kit, so I just fitted one of these vents on each fuel cap.
they
work fine, they are easy to check that they are clear (just blow through
them when refueling) and you have two of them so you have some
redundancy!
Facing into the airflow there must be some 'ram effect' just the same as
the
airspeed pitot, it won't be much. I am not sure of the figures, but even
1lb/sq/in would be enough to give about 1ft of head at the carb. ( I
think!
someone out there will know the figures.)

Once again if you go this way, when refueling and preflighting, check the
vents are facing forward. It becomes second nature.

Cheers

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Cross <rebelair@idirect.com>
To: Murphy Rebel Builders List <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Friday, June 18, 1999 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel Fuel Flows with O320

it
from
not
evenly.
that
is
I
recently
that
most
up
times
climb
this
pressure each
air
125hrs
your
in
while
There
tried
heaps.
will
you
fuel
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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*



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between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
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*----------------------------------------------------*
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Locked