The Murphy Builders Site

Question? Can anyone tell me why we can`t use 15w50 Mobile 1 or
equivalent in our Lycomings instead of aviation oil?

Why does it work perfectly in a 100 hp Rotax ? or a marine engine that
works at 65- 75 % load

I have lots of experience and proof that the synthetic oils reduce
friction and heat as well as their obvious cold starting advantages.

thanks Bob Fisher




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on 1/7/04 7:32 PM, Bob Fisher at rgfisher@zeuter.com wrote:

Question? Can anyone tell me why we can`t use 15w50 Mobile 1 or
equivalent in our Lycomings instead of aviation oil?

Why does it work perfectly in a 100 hp Rotax ? or a marine engine that
works at 65- 75 % load

I have lots of experience and proof that the synthetic oils reduce
friction and heat as well as their obvious cold starting advantages.

thanks Bob Fisher




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I have used amsoil synthetic in automotive applications for years and am
extremely happy with it. I am looking for the same answer as Bob.


Allen Hewko



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A number of years ago, I used Mobil AV-1 in my plane. As many of you might
recall, Mobil ended up paying for a bunch of overhauls, that were attributed
to problems caused by this synthetic oil. It seems that the synthetics did
everything except scavenge the lead. Real tennacious lead sludge deposits
all but plugged up oil passages and every other free space in the engines,
to the point that restriction of oil flow damaged the engines. I liked the
stuff, but it turned out to be a disaster. I did use the automotive version
of the Mobil 1 in my Kitfox that had a 912. Being careful to burn no more
than about 20% leaded fuels, however.

Someone on the list must be more knowledgeable than me about viscosity and
additive differences. Airplane engines are built so much looser than
todays automotive powerplants, which leads me to believe that oils suitable
for one wouldn't do well in the other. But, hey; my expertise is
definitely NOT properties of lubricating oils.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: "Allen Hewko" <hewko@sasktel.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: aviation oil vs automotive oil

on 1/7/04 7:32 PM, Bob Fisher at rgfisher@zeuter.com wrote:

Question? Can anyone tell me why we can`t use 15w50 Mobile 1 or
equivalent in our Lycomings instead of aviation oil?

Why does it work perfectly in a 100 hp Rotax ? or a marine engine that
works at 65- 75 % load

I have lots of experience and proof that the synthetic oils reduce
friction and heat as well as their obvious cold starting advantages.

thanks Bob Fisher

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I have used amsoil synthetic in automotive applications for years and am
extremely happy with it. I am looking for the same answer as Bob.


Allen Hewko

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I can't remember the details, but I do remember there is good reason to not
use auto oil in Lycomings. It has something to do with the additives and the
lead.

I do know that Rotax engines were made to run on auto/motor cycle oils with
gear additives for the reduction gear. Mobil synthetic was one oil Rotax
original recommended for their 912 until the late 90's, when they found after
tearing down a few high time engines the reduction gear was wearing prematurely.

Rotax issued a service bulletin about switching to a motor cycle oil with
gear additives like Gastrol GPS or Honda Gold. If you are using 100LL more than
30% of the time it is necessary to use a lead scavenger, as the 912 was
designed for 92 plus octane auto fuel or better, do to its high compression.

Bruce G



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There's a guy fkying an RV4 around here that swears by automotive oil. He
flys a lot and claims he burns no oil between changes. I'm a cheap scotsman
and love to save a buck wherever I can but I don't feel oils costs enough
to experiment with the automotive stuff. I use the straight grade
appropriate for the season and buy it by the case from a local importer
about $45/case
Drew Dalgleish




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Wasn't going to post, but got to go with you Drew!

I buy Phillips 20W50 in Mineral or Ashless for ~$40/case of 12 liters, when
the GRA-HAM Energy truck fills my fuel tank (or use Aero Shell 100W in the
case of Howard's summer only Rebel or the UTVA's GSO-480's at about
$42/case). Cost is then about $3.30/litre or $26/25 hrs of flying behind an
O-320 with screen or $13 behind a filter (ie a $1 or 50 cents per hour for
oil). Flown/maintained right Lycoming engines running Aviation Oil generally
make TBO (especially if flown regularly with many a Cherokee 140 flight
school engine making 2300 or more hrs) and if neglected (sitting, low time
flying per year) at least 1000 hrs before overhaul (which is 20 to 30 years
for the average rec pilot). Why would you want to buy synthetic oil that is
going to cost you many times more (I pay $18.25/litre for the "bike" oil
that goes into my customers 912ULS..to keep his gear box alive!) to take the
chance of causing the need for engine overhaul sooner (MAY NOT - JUST AN
UNKNOWN.. except in the Mobil case!! $$$$). One $12,000cdn overhaul is
enough over the life of your airplane (and that's only if you don't destroy
the crankshaft ($3500+) or the case as well while using an unproven oil).

Just my 2 cents! I've dawned my crash helmet and crawled under the desk!!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: aviation oil vs automotive oil

There's a guy fkying an RV4 around here that swears by automotive oil. He
flys a lot and claims he burns no oil between changes. I'm a cheap

scotsman

and love to save a buck wherever I can but I don't feel oils costs enough
to experiment with the automotive stuff. I use the straight grade
appropriate for the season and buy it by the case from a local importer
about $45/case
Drew Dalgleish




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The additive package in automotive oils may cause stuck rings in an air
cooled engine. This is the reason I have been given by various lube experts at
Oshkosh, etc.

Norm wandke



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----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: aviation oil vs automotive oil

Wasn't going to post, but got to go with you Drew!

I buy Phillips 20W50 in Mineral or Ashless for ~$40/case of 12 liters,

when

the GRA-HAM Energy truck fills my fuel tank (or use Aero Shell 100W in the
case of Howard's summer only Rebel or the UTVA's GSO-480's at about
$42/case). Cost is then about $3.30/litre or $26/25 hrs of flying behind

an

O-320 with screen or $13 behind a filter (ie a $1 or 50 cents per hour for
oil). Flown/maintained right Lycoming engines running Aviation Oil

generally

make TBO (especially if flown regularly with many a Cherokee 140 flight
school engine making 2300 or more hrs) and if neglected (sitting, low time
flying per year) at least 1000 hrs before overhaul (which is 20 to 30

years

for the average rec pilot). Why would you want to buy synthetic oil that

is

going to cost you many times more (I pay $18.25/litre for the "bike" oil
that goes into my customers 912ULS..to keep his gear box alive!) to take

the

chance of causing the need for engine overhaul sooner (MAY NOT - JUST AN
UNKNOWN.. except in the Mobil case!! $$$$). One $12,000cdn overhaul is
enough over the life of your airplane (and that's only if you don't

destroy

the crankshaft ($3500+) or the case as well while using an unproven oil).

Just my 2 cents! I've dawned my crash helmet and crawled under the desk!!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: aviation oil vs automotive oil

There's a guy fkying an RV4 around here that swears by automotive oil.

He

flys a lot and claims he burns no oil between changes. I'm a cheap

scotsman

and love to save a buck wherever I can but I don't feel oils costs

enough

to experiment with the automotive stuff. I use the straight grade
appropriate for the season and buy it by the case from a local importer
about $45/case
Drew Dalgleish

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Was ya gonna say something Ralph?? or should I stay down here?? Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@ftc-i.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: aviation oil vs automotive oil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: aviation oil vs automotive oil

Wasn't going to post, but got to go with you Drew!

I buy Phillips 20W50 in Mineral or Ashless for ~$40/case of 12 liters,

when

the GRA-HAM Energy truck fills my fuel tank (or use Aero Shell 100W in

the

case of Howard's summer only Rebel or the UTVA's GSO-480's at about
$42/case). Cost is then about $3.30/litre or $26/25 hrs of flying behind

an

O-320 with screen or $13 behind a filter (ie a $1 or 50 cents per hour

for

oil). Flown/maintained right Lycoming engines running Aviation Oil

generally

make TBO (especially if flown regularly with many a Cherokee 140 flight
school engine making 2300 or more hrs) and if neglected (sitting, low

time

flying per year) at least 1000 hrs before overhaul (which is 20 to 30

years

for the average rec pilot). Why would you want to buy synthetic oil that

is

going to cost you many times more (I pay $18.25/litre for the "bike" oil
that goes into my customers 912ULS..to keep his gear box alive!) to take

the

chance of causing the need for engine overhaul sooner (MAY NOT - JUST AN
UNKNOWN.. except in the Mobil case!! $$$$). One $12,000cdn overhaul is
enough over the life of your airplane (and that's only if you don't

destroy

the crankshaft ($3500+) or the case as well while using an unproven

oil).

Just my 2 cents! I've dawned my crash helmet and crawled under the

desk!!

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: aviation oil vs automotive oil

There's a guy fkying an RV4 around here that swears by automotive oil.

He

flys a lot and claims he burns no oil between changes. I'm a cheap

scotsman

and love to save a buck wherever I can but I don't feel oils costs

enough

to experiment with the automotive stuff. I use the straight grade
appropriate for the season and buy it by the case from a local

importer

about $45/case
Drew Dalgleish

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OK .... While we're at it .... Has anyone used any of the
Polyterafluroethelyne (teflon) type additives in any of their engines ???

This stuff embeds itself in the pores of the metal & makes a scuff resistant
"skin" on all metal bits .... Lowering temperatures noticeably (& raising
economy too)

I have had significant success with this stuff in both two stroke & four
stroke car, bike & ultralight engines in the past .... & I intend to use it
in the Lycoming as well .. (AFTER it is fully run in of course)


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Fisher
Sent: Thursday, 8 January 2004 2:32 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: aviation oil vs automotive oil

Question? Can anyone tell me why we can`t use 15w50 Mobile 1 or
equivalent in our Lycomings instead of aviation oil?

Why does it work perfectly in a 100 hp Rotax ? or a marine engine that
works at 65- 75 % load

I have lots of experience and proof that the synthetic oils reduce
friction and heat as well as their obvious cold starting advantages.

thanks Bob Fisher




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You might want to research 'dispersant' aviation oil and 'detergent'
automotive oil additives. Mobil used to publish some very good info on
lubricants. Anyway these are very different additive packages for very
different engines. Clearances, temperatures (water vs air cooled
cylinders), cylinder composition (rotax), etc are quite different. The
advice from several others to stick with the engine manufacturer's
recommendation is very sound. Friction and heat are not the major issues
to look at in this comparison. For example, a perfectly frictionless oil
would rapidly destroy my car engine without additives (buffers) to
control the acids produced by combustion.

Actually that pretty much sums up my comments on synthetics as well.
They are superior lubricants but they still have to be diluted with
additives for engine use and changed often (before the additive package
becomes ineffective). Since conventional oil simply doesn't degrade
significantly during recommended service intervals in stock engines, it
tends to be better value for most engines. I use conventional oil in my
engines but change it often. I've seen a lot more automotive engine
damage due to corrosion and acids than I have due to poor lubrication. I
do prefer synthetics for gears.

In regard to the separate question about teflon. No oil is perfect as
they tend to be compromises. Additive packages represent something like
a third of modern automotive oil. Additive packages can be fine tuned
and maybe you have achieved success for a specific application. However
despite looking, I've yet to see any scientific evidence that these
aftermarket additives such as ground up teflon provide any general
benefit. Nor do I understand how teflon could provide a theoretical
benefit. What mechanism could cause it to go where it is needed instead
of staying suspended or all going to coat the oil pan or filter? If it
does what they say, why have I never seen an engine manufacturer put a
teflon coating on new bearings or cylinders or a reputable oil
manufacturer use it? I don't always dismiss anecdotal evidence but in
this case, without a scientific comparison with controls, all claims are
likely snake oil in my opinion. In fact I think you will find that the
manufacturer of teflon specifically refuses to endorse its use in
engines. I will not be diluting my engine lubricating oil with more
additives but you've probably figured that out by now if you've read
this far ;)

doubtful Ken


Bob Fisher wrote:

Question? Can anyone tell me why we can`t use 15w50 Mobile 1 or
equivalent in our Lycomings instead of aviation oil?

Why does it work perfectly in a 100 hp Rotax ? or a marine engine that
works at 65- 75 % load

I have lots of experience and proof that the synthetic oils reduce
friction and heat as well as their obvious cold starting advantages.

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Thanks to all you guys who tried your best to answer my question. There was
a lot of good info in the coments.

I will use the oil recommended by the engine manufacturer, and change it
often!
----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: aviation oil vs automotive oil

You might want to research 'dispersant' aviation oil and 'detergent'
automotive oil additives. Mobil used to publish some very good info on
lubricants. Anyway these are very different additive packages for very
different engines. Clearances, temperatures (water vs air cooled
cylinders), cylinder composition (rotax), etc are quite different. The
advice from several others to stick with the engine manufacturer's
recommendation is very sound. Friction and heat are not the major issues
to look at in this comparison. For example, a perfectly frictionless oil
would rapidly destroy my car engine without additives (buffers) to
control the acids produced by combustion.

Actually that pretty much sums up my comments on synthetics as well.
They are superior lubricants but they still have to be diluted with
additives for engine use and changed often (before the additive package
becomes ineffective). Since conventional oil simply doesn't degrade
significantly during recommended service intervals in stock engines, it
tends to be better value for most engines. I use conventional oil in my
engines but change it often. I've seen a lot more automotive engine
damage due to corrosion and acids than I have due to poor lubrication. I
do prefer synthetics for gears.

In regard to the separate question about teflon. No oil is perfect as
they tend to be compromises. Additive packages represent something like
a third of modern automotive oil. Additive packages can be fine tuned
and maybe you have achieved success for a specific application. However
despite looking, I've yet to see any scientific evidence that these
aftermarket additives such as ground up teflon provide any general
benefit. Nor do I understand how teflon could provide a theoretical
benefit. What mechanism could cause it to go where it is needed instead
of staying suspended or all going to coat the oil pan or filter? If it
does what they say, why have I never seen an engine manufacturer put a
teflon coating on new bearings or cylinders or a reputable oil
manufacturer use it? I don't always dismiss anecdotal evidence but in
this case, without a scientific comparison with controls, all claims are
likely snake oil in my opinion. In fact I think you will find that the
manufacturer of teflon specifically refuses to endorse its use in
engines. I will not be diluting my engine lubricating oil with more
additives but you've probably figured that out by now if you've read
this far ;)

doubtful Ken


Bob Fisher wrote:

Question? Can anyone tell me why we can`t use 15w50 Mobile 1 or
equivalent in our Lycomings instead of aviation oil?

Why does it work perfectly in a 100 hp Rotax ? or a marine engine that
works at 65- 75 % load

I have lots of experience and proof that the synthetic oils reduce
friction and heat as well as their obvious cold starting advantages.

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