The Murphy Builders Site

Hi Ian

I have no Rebel experience so ignore this if someone else pipes up but
if it were mine I'd compare all adjustments in cruise with the same
power setting while always maintaining the ball in the center with
rudder foot pressure. Then an aileron tab or spring to eliminate roll. A
tab is less effective as you slow down (useally preferable) whereas a
spring tends to have more effect as you slow down. Some guys apparently
do use a light spring or bungee on the control stick. When all is
perfect then adjust a rudder tab for no foot pressure. A rudder tab
probably makes more sense than a rudder spring since it sounds like your
machine probably needs more right rudder at higher power and at higher
speed which is common I believe. One advantage of using springs though
is that it is much easier to make a cockpit adjustable spring mechanism
for in-flight adjustments.

There is some discussion of roll with flap application in the archives.
I would think that some roll or stick deflection with flaperon
application is normal and a result of the geometry between the bell
crank and each flaperons being slightly different. One flaperon horn
might be rivetted on a degree or two different for instance resulting in
a slightly different angle to the pushrod. Propwash also is not
symetrical on them and varies with power as well. I'd guess that the
aerodynamics the rotating propwash from adding powere would tend to roll
a flaperon extended rebel to the left a bit compared to a Rebel with
separate flaps. (Prop rotating cw as seen from pilot seat) That said, I
seem to recall it mentioned that the roll with flaperon extension could
be minimised by adjusting the push tube at a flaperon one way while
doing the opposite on the vertical pushrod on the bellcrank if you
wanted to play with it enough.

Ken

Ian Donaldson wrote:

G'day from Australia.


I have lived with a slightly out of trim airplane since I built it, and as
part of my new Years resolutions, I have decided to fix it but I am looking
for some advice as to what the cause of the problems may be, and how to cure
them!

My plane is the standard Rebel fitted with a 100 hp Rotax engine.

Problem #1
In straight and level flight if you take your hands off the controls, the
Rebel wants to do a gentle aileron roll to the left, and when the wing is
brought back up to the level position, it also requires a little right
rudder to keep the ball centered. I have offset the vertical stabiliser as
directed in the manual and have the flaperon set up, not split flaps. My
plane is the standard Rebel fitted with a 100 hp Rotax engine


Problem #2
When I have the plane flying straight and level, if I apply the flaps, the
Rebel wants to do a gentle roll to the right!


None of these out of trim situations seem to make any difference to the
flying characteristics, but I would like to be able to have the plane fly
true, without continually making adjustments.


I do look forward to some help.


Regards and thanks


Ian Donaldson

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No cracks on my dorsal fin or fin area, and not sure what would
cause that. I made sure that I did not have metal to metal
contact where the top edge of the dorsal met the fin.

Good luck with your trim adjustments.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ian
Donaldson
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2004 5:08 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Out of trim!


G'day Walter

Thanks for your interesting response.
.

My Rebel flies nice and has good manners, but I would
like to get the few
quirks sorted out if possible.

The only adjustment I occasionally make, and this one too is
rare, is my elevator trim if my load really varies from one
flight situation to another.

Me too! I use the trim ocassionally when I am trying
to get it flying nice
and level, but after that it is never needed.

but do have my tail fin offset by 3/4 inch as per

the original

MAM instructions. I also have the dorsal fin

Me too. I have just noticed that the dorsal fin is
developing a crack where
the upper portion meets the fin. Any problem with yours?

Compared to the Cessnas and Pipers that I have flown

in the past,

this is by far the nicest flying airplane that I

have ever flown

The Rebel sure is a great plane to fly. It really does
not have any bad
manners at all!

I have had a few suggestions about adjustments to make
and I will see what
comes of it.


regards
Ian Donaldson





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G'day from Australia.


I have lived with a slightly out of trim airplane since I built it, and as
part of my new Years resolutions, I have decided to fix it but I am looking
for some advice as to what the cause of the problems may be, and how to cure
them!

My plane is the standard Rebel fitted with a 100 hp Rotax engine.

Problem #1
In straight and level flight if you take your hands off the controls, the
Rebel wants to do a gentle aileron roll to the left, and when the wing is
brought back up to the level position, it also requires a little right
rudder to keep the ball centered. I have offset the vertical stabiliser as
directed in the manual and have the flaperon set up, not split flaps. My
plane is the standard Rebel fitted with a 100 hp Rotax engine


Problem #2
When I have the plane flying straight and level, if I apply the flaps, the
Rebel wants to do a gentle roll to the right!


None of these out of trim situations seem to make any difference to the
flying characteristics, but I would like to be able to have the plane fly
true, without continually making adjustments.


I do look forward to some help.


Regards and thanks


Ian Donaldson















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You asked about other Rebels, but there isn't much I can add to
the discussion. Maybe I got lucky with mine, but I have never
adjusted any of the controls or rigging since before its first
flight, and it flies as straight as I could ever hope for. I do
know that in cruise with the flaperons in reflex, I just need the
odd finger touch on the stick to keep it going in the right
direction. I think it might vary slightly if my fuel is
unbalanced with no passenger, but not enough to notice. I think
when I put down flaps initially, there is a slight tendency to
roll one way or the other, and I can't remember which way, but
again not enough to be a bother.

The only adjustment I occasionally make, and this one too is
rare, is my elevator trim if my load really varies from one
flight situation to another.

I don't have any other fixed trims on any of my control surfaces,
but do have my tail fin offset by 3/4 inch as per the original
MAM instructions. I also have the dorsal fin which probably aids
slightly in longitudinal stability.

Compared to the Cessnas and Pipers that I have flown in the past,
this is by far the nicest flying airplane that I have ever flown
which has always amazed me from day one, especially not having to
constantly fiddle with elevator trim.

I think too, as others here have said, that you get very used to
your own plane, and it's hard to notice slight abnormalities. My
first airplane, an ultralight, flew terribly, and you always had
to have your hands and feet on the controls. But even that I got
used to, and used bungies on the stick, as some others here have
mentioned. What I remember, too, though, is when I got into
straight flying airplane, it initially didn't seem right because
I was so used to my own.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ian
Donaldson
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 4:16 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Out of trim!


G'day Wayne


thanks for your most interesting & helpful response.

Ian, the right rudder is an easy one by tightening

up the rudder return

spring a bit on that side (or loosening the left one,

Now how easy was that! I was thinking of trim tabs on
the ruddder, but this
is a much better fix!

. Works perfect when carrying a passenger, but could use a
little more trim when flying solo. Does yours turn

when alone/passenger

carrying or both?

My rebel is sensitive to the load & placement and the
turn is less
noticeable when carrying a passenger but still there
never the less.

small amounts of lead inside the wing tips on

Cessnas to correct for minor
trim problems.

For some reason my Rebel (when empty) is about 12
kilograms heavier on the
left side. So I guess if I corrrected the weight
imbalance by adding weight
to the right wing this may help, but bearing in mind
the various weights of
pilots & passengers this may not be the ideal fix.

this could be prop wash or linkage non-symetrics

causing this.

OK! Any suggestions for checking that the action is
symetrical? I have
tried to get the push rods (etc) all the same
dimensions, but there may be
some small difference. Would adjusting the length of
the push rods make any
difference, or would this only cause a change in the
position of the control
column?

I find that sometimes this uneven deployement
corrects itself with a slight
sideways movement of the stick

that doesn't require any real pressure

I have grown accustomed to its little traits, and
never really notice it,
but when doing my bi annual check with our CFI he
pointed out the right
roll. I will check the deployment by seeing just what
difference control
movements make.

my airplane probably does the same thing, just got

so used to it I don't

notice it anymore.

I would like to know what your plane does. Perhaps it
would be interesting
to hear what other Rebel owners have to say about their planes.


If things ever freeze back up (currently +3C and raining)

Good grief! How go you live in such a cold place.
Today +37c and just nice.
If it gets any warmer I will have to take off my
overcoat. However we have
had 5 years of drought and water is a big problem and
its use is rationed. I
have a pet frog that is 3 years old and he has not had
his first swim yet!

around here so I can get in my New Years flight I'll

pay attention and let
you know.

I look forward to hearing just what your plane does.

Regards

Ian Donaldson




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Ian, the right rudder is an easy one by tightening up the rudder return
spring a bit on that side (or loosening the left one, which ever is easier
to adjust).

My personal Rebel has a left turn tendency as well. I fixed it by mounting a
piece of my first moulded windshield (had a nice smooth curve in it and
won't slice someones forehead open like alum will when walked into) to the
RIGHT flaperons end by the tip. Curve faces down so it tries to lift the
right flaperon to negate the extra lift it seems to be generating to cause
the left turn. Works perfect when carrying a passenger, but could use a
little more trim when flying solo. Does yours turn when alone/passenger
carrying or both?

If you don't want to trim a control surface, I know an AME that likes to use
small amounts of lead inside the wing tips on Cessnas to correct for minor
trim problems. This way no induced drag from trim tabs or intentially
dragging an aileron or similar to get her to fly straight.

As for the right turn when dropping the flaperons down, as Ken brought up
this could be prop wash or linkage non-symetrics causing this. Next time you
do it loosen your grip up on the stick!! I find that sometimes this uneven
deployement corrects itself with a slight sideways movement of the stick
that doesn't require any real pressure on the behalf of the pilot. I think
my airplane probably does the same thing, just got so used to it I don't
notice it anymore. If things ever freeze back up (currently +3C and raining)
around here so I can get in my New Years flight I'll pay attention and let
you know.

Cheers,
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Donaldson" <allsure@iprimus.com.au>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 7:36 AM
Subject: Out of trim!

G'day from Australia.


I have lived with a slightly out of trim airplane since I built it, and as
part of my new Years resolutions, I have decided to fix it but I am

looking

for some advice as to what the cause of the problems may be, and how to

cure

them!

My plane is the standard Rebel fitted with a 100 hp Rotax engine.

Problem #1
In straight and level flight if you take your hands off the controls, the
Rebel wants to do a gentle aileron roll to the left, and when the wing is
brought back up to the level position, it also requires a little right
rudder to keep the ball centered. I have offset the vertical stabiliser

as

directed in the manual and have the flaperon set up, not split flaps. My
plane is the standard Rebel fitted with a 100 hp Rotax engine


Problem #2
When I have the plane flying straight and level, if I apply the flaps, the
Rebel wants to do a gentle roll to the right!


None of these out of trim situations seem to make any difference to the
flying characteristics, but I would like to be able to have the plane fly
true, without continually making adjustments.


I do look forward to some help.


Regards and thanks


Ian Donaldson

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G'day Wayne


thanks for your most interesting & helpful response.

Ian, the right rudder is an easy one by tightening up the rudder return
spring a bit on that side (or loosening the left one,

Now how easy was that! I was thinking of trim tabs on the ruddder, but this
is a much better fix!

. Works perfect when carrying a passenger, but could use a
little more trim when flying solo. Does yours turn when alone/passenger
carrying or both?

My rebel is sensitive to the load & placement and the turn is less
noticeable when carrying a passenger but still there never the less.

small amounts of lead inside the wing tips on Cessnas to correct for minor

trim problems.

For some reason my Rebel (when empty) is about 12 kilograms heavier on the
left side. So I guess if I corrrected the weight imbalance by adding weight
to the right wing this may help, but bearing in mind the various weights of
pilots & passengers this may not be the ideal fix.

this could be prop wash or linkage non-symetrics causing this.

OK! Any suggestions for checking that the action is symetrical? I have
tried to get the push rods (etc) all the same dimensions, but there may be
some small difference. Would adjusting the length of the push rods make any
difference, or would this only cause a change in the position of the control
column?

I find that sometimes this uneven deployement corrects itself with a slight
sideways movement of the stick

that doesn't require any real pressure

I have grown accustomed to its little traits, and never really notice it,
but when doing my bi annual check with our CFI he pointed out the right
roll. I will check the deployment by seeing just what difference control
movements make.

my airplane probably does the same thing, just got so used to it I don't
notice it anymore.

I would like to know what your plane does. Perhaps it would be interesting
to hear what other Rebel owners have to say about their planes.


If things ever freeze back up (currently +3C and raining)

Good grief! How go you live in such a cold place. Today +37c and just nice.
If it gets any warmer I will have to take off my overcoat. However we have
had 5 years of drought and water is a big problem and its use is rationed. I
have a pet frog that is 3 years old and he has not had his first swim yet!

around here so I can get in my New Years flight I'll pay attention and let

you know.

I look forward to hearing just what your plane does.

Regards

Ian Donaldson




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G'day Ian .... Rick here in Sydney

Happy New Year ole boy !!! :)

I reckon it's all in the adjustment of the bellcrank, and pushrod lengths up
to the torque tubes and their respective horn positions

By the way, I noticed when assembling our Rebel that the bellcrank was
ASYMETRIC (not equal on both sides) ... I figured that this was to correct
for the differing angles & arcs of the pushrods to the bellcrank & horns
.... But when I asked Murphy WHICH way it went on, I got an "indifferent"
and quite confusing "non-answer" back ?!?

So I remade the bellcrank to a SYMETRIC one .... And ours flies hands off a
lot of the time , and doesn't roll either way when you hit flaps !

What I DID do though, was to measure the movement of the control column it
each direction, and also measured the deflection of the ailerons accordingly
& made sure they had EQUAL movement for the same input on the column.

Hope this helps out !

Ours is nearly finished being re-engined with an IO-320 .... I reckon it's
going to take off & climb like an angel shot in the butt with an exocet
missile ! :)


Rick & Wendy Harper
16 Tor Road
Dee Why
NSW 2099
Australia
Home (02) 9971 7889
Mobile 0416 041 007

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Ian
Donaldson
Sent: Friday, 2 January 2004 11:37 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Out of trim!


G'day from Australia.


I have lived with a slightly out of trim airplane since I built it, and as
part of my new Years resolutions, I have decided to fix it but I am looking
for some advice as to what the cause of the problems may be, and how to cure
them!

My plane is the standard Rebel fitted with a 100 hp Rotax engine.

Problem #1
In straight and level flight if you take your hands off the controls, the
Rebel wants to do a gentle aileron roll to the left, and when the wing is
brought back up to the level position, it also requires a little right
rudder to keep the ball centered. I have offset the vertical stabiliser as
directed in the manual and have the flaperon set up, not split flaps. My
plane is the standard Rebel fitted with a 100 hp Rotax engine


Problem #2
When I have the plane flying straight and level, if I apply the flaps, the
Rebel wants to do a gentle roll to the right!


None of these out of trim situations seem to make any difference to the
flying characteristics, but I would like to be able to have the plane fly
true, without continually making adjustments.


I do look forward to some help.


Regards and thanks


Ian Donaldson















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Hi Ian !

Sorry to be a bit late answering - busy with holidays,
and enjoying our +14 degree weather (soon to go :-( ) ...

If it's any consolation, your Rebel sounds perfectly
normal ! I'd say that at least 90 % of all the Rebels I've flown
fly exactly as you describe !!!

I believe that the roll-to-left tendency has something to
do with the extreme difficulty of fabricating the standard wing tips
so they are identical - invariably, one has 1/4" more droop than
the other !! The best solution, and a big build-time saver is to
go to Dave Fife's Hoerner tips - not only are they symmetrical,
and a perfect fit, but they will improve performance ! (A documented
reduction of over 20% in take-off distance !).

Like you, and several others, I have used a small bungee cord
wrapped around the stick, hooked on the right side of the large tube,
& slid up & down, for aileron trim - not pretty, but it works.

The roll with flaps is standard - I've spent whole days
playing with pushrod lengths from the bellcrank to the torque tubes,
to eliminate this. It can be reduced almost to zero, but it takes
a lot of fiddling !! If you have 2 notches of negative flapperon,
you may notice that you get roll to the LEFT with this - same cause.
It may well be exacerbated by the effect of slipstream from the prop,
and it seems almost impossible to eliminate.

In spite of all that, the effects are very mild, and very
little stick force is needed to correct - and the bungee takes
care of that easily. It does become so automatic that you don't
notice it after a while, and just enjoy the flying ! I have flown
for several hours on cross-countries without touching the stick
at all - the Rebel really is a stable cross country airplane !! :-)

One of the beauties of the Rebel is the powerful rudder.
It is easy to pick up a low wing with just a touch of opposite
rudder. It's possible that your adjustment of the rudder position
by stretching one return spring might help the rolling tendency -
a combination of P-factor torque and slipstream...

Sorry, no magic solution, just learn to love it !! :-) :-)
I've never been happy with this little vice, but, if that's the
worst thing about the Rebel, it's a heck of a lot better than
ANY other airplane !! :-) ;-)
......bobp

--------------------------------orig.-----------------------------
At 11:36 PM 1/2/04 +1100, you wrote:

G'day from Australia.


I have lived with a slightly out of trim airplane since I built it, and as
part of my new Years resolutions, I have decided to fix it but I am looking
for some advice as to what the cause of the problems may be, and how to cure
them!

My plane is the standard Rebel fitted with a 100 hp Rotax engine.

Problem #1
In straight and level flight if you take your hands off the controls, the
Rebel wants to do a gentle aileron roll to the left, and when the wing is
brought back up to the level position, it also requires a little right
rudder to keep the ball centered. I have offset the vertical stabiliser as
directed in the manual and have the flaperon set up, not split flaps. My
plane is the standard Rebel fitted with a 100 hp Rotax engine


Problem #2
When I have the plane flying straight and level, if I apply the flaps, the
Rebel wants to do a gentle roll to the right!


None of these out of trim situations seem to make any difference to the
flying characteristics, but I would like to be able to have the plane fly
true, without continually making adjustments.


I do look forward to some help.


Regards and thanks


Ian Donaldson















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Well I guess you could try taking that overcoat off... ;)
Ken

That's next on my list to have a look at. The weather has been so hot here
I don't have the urge to get out into the hangar!
thanks again
regards
Ian Donaldson

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G'day Ken

Thanks for your response.

Some guys apparently do use a light spring or bungee on the control stick.

I have just slipped a fer rubber bands between the stick and the attach
point for the elevator cables.
All I need to do is just slip them up or down as required. Easy and cheap!
But I would like it to fly a little straighter.

. One advantage of using springs though is that it is much easier to make a
cockpit adjustable spring mechanism for in-flight adjustments.

What I have done is to adjust the rudder return spring and that has made a
difference. I can put up with rudder inputs until getting to cruise, and the
extra spring tension has balanced it out nicely there.

be minimised by adjusting the push tube at a flaperon one way while
doing the opposite on the vertical pushrod on the bellcrank if you
wanted to play with it enough.

That's next on my list to have a look at. The weather has been so hot here
I don't have the urge to get out into the hangar!

thanks again


regards

Ian Donaldson




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G'day again.

No cracks on my dorsal fin or fin area, and not sure what would
cause that. I made sure that I did not have metal to metal
contact where the top edge of the dorsal met the fin.

OK. My dorsal does not touch the fin also. Guess that this is one of the
mysteries of owning a Rebel!

Good luck with your trim adjustments.

Thanks!

regards

Ian Donaldson




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G'day Ken


We have the strangest weather. Yesterday +38 and today +21 and very cold!
I did go to the hangar and have a shot at doing some adjustments, but I will
have to wait for another day to have a flight test.

regards


Ian

Well I guess you could try taking that overcoat off... ;)
Ken

That's next on my list to have a look at. The weather has been so hot

here

I don't have the urge to get out into the hangar!

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G'day Bob

Sorry to be a bit late answering - busy with holidays,
and enjoying our +14 degree weather (soon to go :-( ) ...

No worries It is nice to get an interesting reply. You must be absolutely
overwhelmed with the heatwave!

If it's any consolation, your Rebel sounds perfectly normal ! I'd

say that at least 90 % of all the Rebels I've flown fly exactly as you
describe !!!
Well that's nice to know. I was not worried about it, but I would like it to
fly just a little straighter!

, One has 1/4" more droop than the other !!

Well I never thought about that!


The best solution, and a big build-time saver is to go to Dave Fife's
Hoerner tips ->
They would be nice, but for what they would cost here, I will just put up
with the oddities in my Rebel!

Like you, and several others, I have used a small bungee cord
wrapped around the stick, hooked on the right side of the large tube,
& slid up & down, for aileron trim - not pretty, but it works.

Seemed like a good fix to me. Cheap and easy! My Rebel is practical, not
pretty!

The roll with flaps is standard -

OK! I will just learn to hold a little opposite stick and forget about it!

I have flown for several hours on cross-countries without touching the

stick

at all - the Rebel really is a stable cross country airplane !! :-)

It sure is nice when you get her all trimmed and she just purrs along hands
off. You can almost have a quick nap and let her fly herself!

. It's possible that your adjustment of the rudder position

by stretching one return spring might

The extra spring seemed to fix the problem at cruise. Using the rudder at
climb or descent is not a big deal at all.

Sorry, no magic solution, just learn to love it !! :-) :-)

Ok I will just live with her strange idiosyncrasies. However the Rebel is
just such a great plane to fly that we can overlook a few niggles.

thanks again

Regards

Ian




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