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Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Pedals
Message-Id: <E10ePiP-0001SG-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:53:26 -0400


Gee, Tim, that position sounds really wierd !! The rudder pedals should
be farther forward. The only concern is that the forward-going pedal will
clear the firewall, even with FULL rudder deflection AND full brake
application. As long as there is no interference, it should be fine !

Not sure about moving the whole torque tube assembly backward - have
heard of some builders doing that, but it seems to me that it would be
easier just to lengthen the stick, and put more of a curve in it...

Must say, I like the Rebel better with the 'standard' position for
everything ! With the pedals, stick, and seat all moved back at least
3 inches back, it is harder to SEE out of, and the whole 'feel' of the
airplane takes a bit of getting used to ! One important consideration
is making the skylight directly overhead a bit larger - you will be looking
up through it much more than through the 2 small ones at the front,
especially in steep turns !! It is a very good idea to make a doubler
ring around the skylight opening (1" or so wide) - strengthens the hole,
and makes it easy to rivet through to hold the Lexan & sealer.

......bobp

------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 10:33 AM 5/3/99 -0700, you wrote:
Hi gang:

I was over at Placerville this weekend and a guy has just bought an
almost-finished FWB from another builder.

This Rebel was on spring gear, and had the firewall cut back. The new
owner
had the rudder pedals out on the hangar floor, and I asked him why...

He told showed me that the rudder pedals when installed in the holes for
them in the cabin floor were pretty close to the control stick torque tube
assembly. They were so close that the heel of the foot returning (opposite
the foot depressing) would interfere with the torque tube, and the heel
would have to be lifted up to clear the torque tube.

I sat in the factory Rebel with spring gear and a cut back firewall at
Merced a few years back, and I don't remember that happening.

Whoever built this fuselage had placed the rudder pedal assembly floor
doublers just aft of the two u-channel brackets that provide for the lower
engine mount bolts. Those extend into the cabin from the firewall about
eight inches on the cabin floor, but it seemed there was plenty of room
forward of that point that could contain the rudder pedal assembly.

I told the guy I'd ask the experts...

Is the rudder pedal assembly in the wrong place, or, something else? When
you cut the firewall back are you supposed to move the control stick torque
tube assembly back as well? Is this a spring gear thing?

Curious...

Tim
#438R







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Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis

Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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Hi Dave,
Curt here, wondering if you could sent this site a picture of your
brake/rudder fix? I too have experienced the full rudder deflection and
unable to get the little extra from the brake unless I hit the opposite
rudder to bring the toe back. I got a real good idea from your e-mail, but a
picture is worth a a hole bunch!! Along with that it also sounds nice,
light, and above all cheap! Thanks Curt N97MR



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Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Pedals
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I'll go along with that, the brake pedal mod sounds like just what the
Doctor ordered. A picture would be a big help.

I'm putting the dual brake kit on (kids want to learn to fly!!) I guess the
mod would still operate with this OK?

Alister

-----Original Message-----
From: Rebflyer@aol.com <Rebflyer@aol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: Pedals

Hi Dave,
Curt here, wondering if you could sent this site a picture of your
brake/rudder fix? I too have experienced the full rudder deflection and
unable to get the little extra from the brake unless I hit the opposite
rudder to bring the toe back. I got a real good idea from your e-mail, but
a
picture is worth a a hole bunch!! Along with that it also sounds nice,
light, and above all cheap! Thanks Curt N97MR

Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: RE: Pedals
Message-Id: <E10emlR-0002Lt-00@mail4.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:30:05 -0400


Can do, but what I said was IT DOESN'T MATTER !! What's important is
the clearance from the firewall !!

The pedals go as far forward as possible, leaving just enough clearance
for full rudder & brake ....

The distance from the torque tube may vary from Rebel to Rebel, but
it's not important.

.....bobp

-----------------------orig.----------------------------------------
At 02:31 PM 5/3/99 -0700, you wrote:
Bob:

I am just about to start my fuselage, so I cannot tell this guy what is
'normal'. I am trying to find out.

When you (or any of the builders) are around your Rebel next time, could
you
measure yours and tell me the distance from the torque tube forward to the
mount points for the rudder pedals?

I'd appreciate that.

Tim




-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson [mailto:bob.patterson@canrem.com]
Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 1:53 PM
To: Murphy Rebel
Subject: Re: Pedals



Gee, Tim, that position sounds really wierd !! The rudder pedals should
be farther forward. The only concern is that the forward-going pedal will
clear the firewall, even with FULL rudder deflection AND full brake
application. As long as there is no interference, it should be fine !

Not sure about moving the whole torque tube assembly backward - have
heard of some builders doing that, but it seems to me that it would be
easier just to lengthen the stick, and put more of a curve in it...

Must say, I like the Rebel better with the 'standard' position for
everything ! With the pedals, stick, and seat all moved back at least
3 inches back, it is harder to SEE out of, and the whole 'feel' of the
airplane takes a bit of getting used to ! One important consideration
is making the skylight directly overhead a bit larger - you will be looking
up through it much more than through the 2 small ones at the front,
especially in steep turns !! It is a very good idea to make a doubler
ring around the skylight opening (1" or so wide) - strengthens the hole,
and makes it easy to rivet through to hold the Lexan & sealer.

......bobp

------------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 10:33 AM 5/3/99 -0700, you wrote:
Hi gang:

I was over at Placerville this weekend and a guy has just bought an
almost-finished FWB from another builder.

This Rebel was on spring gear, and had the firewall cut back. The new
owner
had the rudder pedals out on the hangar floor, and I asked him why...

He told showed me that the rudder pedals when installed in the holes for
them in the cabin floor were pretty close to the control stick torque tube
assembly. They were so close that the heel of the foot returning
(opposite
the foot depressing) would interfere with the torque tube, and the heel
would have to be lifted up to clear the torque tube.

I sat in the factory Rebel with spring gear and a cut back firewall at
Merced a few years back, and I don't remember that happening.

Whoever built this fuselage had placed the rudder pedal assembly floor
doublers just aft of the two u-channel brackets that provide for the lower
engine mount bolts. Those extend into the cabin from the firewall about
eight inches on the cabin floor, but it seemed there was plenty of room
forward of that point that could contain the rudder pedal assembly.

I told the guy I'd ask the experts...

Is the rudder pedal assembly in the wrong place, or, something else? When
you cut the firewall back are you supposed to move the control stick
torque
tube assembly back as well? Is this a spring gear thing?

Curious...

Tim
#438R










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Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: RE: Pedals
Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:44:52 +1200
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This pedal vs. toque tube positioning is quite interesting.

When I moved the fire wall back 3" to balance the larger motor, the =
pedals obviously had to be moved back with it to maintain clearance.

I found I wasn't happy with the positioning of the stick, it was too far =
forward because I was sitting further back to make my legs comfortable. =
To over come this I made up another stick with a bend in it that =
centered the handgrip 3" back.

This works fine, the only thing I have against it is that when the stick =
is in the full aft position it tends to drop quite deep, which is still =
quite OK until you take on a three point cross wind landing, there is =
not enough sideways movement to give adequate flaperon deflection.( legs =
in the way)

Almost all of my landings are wheel landings so this is not really a =
problem but it may be worth some consideration if three pointers are =
your specialty.

I do suggest when working in this area you set up a temporary seating =
arrangement to make sure every thing is custom made to your =
requirements.

Just another thought, this new mounting for the brake cylinder that Dave =
is talking about may give more clearance at the firewall and the pedal =
mounting could possibly move a little further forward.

Alister=20

email: yeoman@voyager.co.nz

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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>This pedal vs. toque tube =
positioning is quite=20
interesting.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>When I moved the fire wall back 3" to balance =
the larger=20
motor, the pedals obviously had to be moved back with it to maintain=20
clearance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I found I wasn't happy with the positioning of the =
stick, it=20
was too far forward because I was sitting further back to make my legs=20
comfortable. <FONT color=3D#000000>To over come this I made up another =
stick with=20
a bend in it that centered the handgrip 3" =
back.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>This works fine, the only thing I have against it is =
that when=20
the stick is in the full aft position it tends to drop quite deep, which =
is=20
still quite OK until you take on a three point cross wind landing, there =
is not=20
enough sideways movement to give adequate flaperon deflection.( legs in =
the=20
way)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Almost all of my landings are wheel =
landings so=20
this is not really a problem but it may be worth some consideration if =
three=20
pointers are your specialty.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I do suggest when working in this =
area you set=20
up a temporary seating arrangement to make sure every thing is custom =
made to=20
your requirements.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Just another thought, this new =
mounting for the=20
brake cylinder that Dave is talking about may give more clearance at the =

firewall and the pedal mounting could possibly move a little further=20
forward.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&nbsp;Alister </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>email: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:yeoman@voyager.co.n">yeoman@voyager.co.n</A>z</FONT></DIV>=
</BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE96FD.73FB64A0--

Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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There is a picture of Dave's brakes on my home page under completion's but
it
may not be clear enough for what you want. Dave if you have something
clearer
feel free to send it along and I'll add it to the existing pictures.
...Wray

Rebflyer@aol.com wrote:
Hi Dave,
Curt here, wondering if you could sent this site a picture of your
brake/rudder fix? I too have experienced the full rudder deflection and
unable to get the little extra from the brake unless I hit the opposite
rudder to bring the toe back. I got a real good idea from your e-mail, but
a
picture is worth a a hole bunch!! Along with that it also sounds nice,
light, and above all cheap! Thanks Curt N97MR
--
Wray Thompson ...Rebel 306 ...home page http://www.globalserve.net/~cobbg/

Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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Wray Thompson wrote:
There is a picture of Dave's brakes on my home page under completion's but
it
may not be clear enough for what you want. Dave if you have something
clearer
feel free to send it along and I'll add it to the existing pictures.
...Wray
Rebflyer@aol.com wrote:
Hi Dave,
Curt here, wondering if you could sent this site a picture of your
brake/rudder fix? I too have experienced the full rudder deflection and
unable to get the little extra from the brake unless I hit the opposite
rudder to bring the toe back. I got a real good idea from your e-mail,
but a
picture is worth a a hole bunch!! Along with that it also sounds nice,
light, and above all cheap! Thanks Curt N97MR
--
Wray Thompson ...Rebel 306 ...home page http://www.globalserve.net/~cobbg/
I'll try and do a profile drawing. That would be the clearest. Maybe
tonight or tomorrow. Been busy.
--
Dave Bangle http://www.subielyc.com/

Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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Rebflyer@aol.com wrote:
Hi Dave,
Curt here, wondering if you could sent this site a picture of your
brake/rudder fix? I too have experienced the full rudder deflection and
unable to get the little extra from the brake unless I hit the opposite
rudder to bring the toe back. I got a real good idea from your e-mail, but
a
picture is worth a a hole bunch!! Along with that it also sounds nice,
light, and above all cheap! Thanks Curt N97MR
Here is that drawing. Kinda crude but should explain.
--
Dave Bangle http://www.subielyc.com/





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Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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Hi There

If I understand your description properly, the rudder pedals are indeed way
too far aft. The doulbers and pedals have to be mounted in the exact same
position shown in the manual regardless whether or not the firewall is cut
back.

Mine is cut back and there is plenty of room. I could have still placed the
pedals even another inch or so forward and had enough room. If your
opposite
heel must be lifted to clear the torque tube, clearly this is totally
unacceptable and not what MAM intended. Move them forward as it is easy.
Also, it has nothing to do with the spring gear setup which I also have
installed.

MAM provides new sticks if you move the firewall back which are necessary to
obtain the required stick throw to clear the dash etc.

Take a Saturday and fix them.

BTW, I do not recommend lexan for skylights.

Regards

Brian #328R

Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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Hi Dave

I could not agree with you more. When you look at the geometry of the as
supplied brakes, really screwy things are going on.

I took the easy way out and ordered Keith Kinden's brake fixeruper. Nice
job
of work he does! The pedals stay at pretty much the same angle relative to
the floor during the stroke. This will help you inadvertently applying the
brakes as rudder is applied - which is what could happen if you are not
careful with the original setup.

I saw a local friend here put his beautiful Rebel on its nose by too much
brake. I don't know if this was the problem, but, it taught me something
while I was sitting in the Super Cub at the time about excessive brakes and
taildraggers!

Brian #328R

Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:19 pm
by Mike Davis
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Hi There

I believe the rudder pedal placement is important. Even if you do not put
the pedals as far back the original gent who started this conversation, you
just push yourself back down the cockpit unnecessarily if you are not
careful. You should allow just enough clearance because if you allow a few
extra inches, that becomes wasted space forever and you have to be that few
inches further back to be comfortable.

Brian #328R

Pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:47 pm
by Ian Donaldson
G'day

Some time back there was discussion in the group regarding attaching the
brake cylinder to
the floor via a bracket.

I have searched the archives and I am unable to locate a 'photo or
drawing. Could someone help?

Thanks and regardsa

Ian Donaldson

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pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:33 pm
by Jones, Mike
Hi All

While looking at old messages I notice alot of talk about pedals and some
question of how to set them up. The name Keith Kinden was mentioned as
having a fix for sale. Can anyone explain the problem, what his fix is and
if its worth purchasing also how to reach him

Mike#007


EOM

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pedals

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:33 pm
by klehman
Mike

I believe Keith builds a neat mechanical linkage to tie the right seat
brake pedals to the left seat master cylinders to provide dual brakes.

I went with a second set of used $20. brake cylinders instead, but I
still have to buy or make another set of brake pedals.

Another issue is whether you mount the master cylinders in the manner
that MAM recommends or if you relocate the bottom mount for the cylinder
to a strong bracket fixed to the floor. The reason for that is so that
the brake pedal stands vertical and does not tilt forward as you apply
rudder pedal. There is simply no end to the ways you can customise your
bird!

Ken

"Jones, Mike" wrote:
Hi All

While looking at old messages I notice alot of talk about pedals and some
question of how to set them up. The name Keith Kinden was mentioned as
having a fix for sale. Can anyone explain the problem, what his fix is and
if its worth purchasing also how to reach him
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The Murphy Rebel Builders List is for the discussion
between builders and owners of Murphy Rebel aircraft.
Archives located at:
http://www.dcsol.com/murphy-rebel/lists/default.htm
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*




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