The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

Don and Randy,
I had trouble with the brake slave linkage to the right seat. Everything
worked great until the amphibs went on. When the rudder was pushed all the
way to the stop the brake linkage went over center and jammed the linkage. I
need all the water rudder movement I can get when the wind is over about
15mph. I gave up trying to get the linkage to work and just removed the
brakes from the right seat. Since I always land from the left seat no
problem.
The rudder pedals stop a couple of inches from the firewall, starting out
with the horn through the floor in the vertical position.
Al
Moose, N526AP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:26 PM
Subject: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Hi guys,

We are installing the brake lines inside the cabin behind the rudder

pedals.

My question is how far from perpendicular does the "horn" that goes

through

the floor NEED to move fore and aft to get proper rudder travel?
(Our rudder is not hooked up yet)

We have installed the brake cylinders using MAM's revised "instructions"

and

the great pictures found on Mowat's page. There does not seem to be a lot

of

travel allowed aft before the pilots left pedal starts to see interference
between the horizontal tube of the top of the pedal and the bent square

tube

that is located behind the pedal to transfer braking action from the
co-pilot's side.

Any info on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

Making progress,
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner, Randy Bowers
Super Moose #130 M-14PF 400HP, MT-prop, Aerocet 3500 amphibs, Rome, NY

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

Hi guys,

We are installing the brake lines inside the cabin behind the rudder pedals.
My question is how far from perpendicular does the "horn" that goes through
the floor NEED to move fore and aft to get proper rudder travel?
(Our rudder is not hooked up yet)

We have installed the brake cylinders using MAM's revised "instructions" and
the great pictures found on Mowat's page. There does not seem to be a lot of
travel allowed aft before the pilots left pedal starts to see interference
between the horizontal tube of the top of the pedal and the bent square tube
that is located behind the pedal to transfer braking action from the
co-pilot's side.

Any info on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

Making progress,
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner, Randy Bowers
Super Moose #130 M-14PF 400HP, MT-prop, Aerocet 3500 amphibs, Rome, NY

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

I wonder if one couldn't solve this problem by putting in separate cylinders
on the right side instead of trying to slave them off the left. Just T the
lines together??? Is there a reason this wouldn't work?

Mike
195SR

On 11/15/2003 1:44 AM, MURPHY-REBEL@DCSOL.COM wrote to MIKE DAVIS:

Don and Randy,
I had trouble with the brake slave linkage to the right seat. Everything
worked great until the amphibs went on. When the rudder was pushed all the
way to the stop the brake linkage went over center and jammed the linkage. I
need all the water rudder movement I can get when the wind is over about
15mph. I gave up trying to get the linkage to work and just removed the
brakes from the right seat. Since I always land from the left seat no
problem.
The rudder pedals stop a couple of inches from the firewall, starting out
with the horn through the floor in the vertical position.
Al
Moose, N526AP

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

Thanks Al,

Looking the situation over today your solution was one thing I considered
depending on how much travel was necessary. I also experienced the over
center when I was setting up the pedals on the work bench a while back . I
guess at the time I felt that the pedals would not have to move far enough
to jam ... guess they do.

Question:
Did you mount your brake cylinders directly to the floor relatively close to
the base of the pedals as per MAM and Mowat? This also seems to limit the
travel of the pedals even without the slave linkage, but not as severely.

Don B.

From: Al & Deb Paxhia <paxhia2@comcast.net>
Reply-To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:11:28 -0800
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Don and Randy,
I had trouble with the brake slave linkage to the right seat. Everything
worked great until the amphibs went on. When the rudder was pushed all the
way to the stop the brake linkage went over center and jammed the linkage. I
need all the water rudder movement I can get when the wind is over about
15mph. I gave up trying to get the linkage to work and just removed the
brakes from the right seat. Since I always land from the left seat no
problem.
The rudder pedals stop a couple of inches from the firewall, starting out
with the horn through the floor in the vertical position.
Al
Moose, N526AP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:26 PM
Subject: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Hi guys,

We are installing the brake lines inside the cabin behind the rudder
pedals.
My question is how far from perpendicular does the "horn" that goes
through
the floor NEED to move fore and aft to get proper rudder travel?
(Our rudder is not hooked up yet)

We have installed the brake cylinders using MAM's revised "instructions"
and
the great pictures found on Mowat's page. There does not seem to be a lot
of
travel allowed aft before the pilots left pedal starts to see interference
between the horizontal tube of the top of the pedal and the bent square
tube
that is located behind the pedal to transfer braking action from the
co-pilot's side.

Any info on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

Making progress,
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner, Randy Bowers
Super Moose #130 M-14PF 400HP, MT-prop, Aerocet 3500 amphibs, Rome, NY

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

I followed MAM's instructions for mounting the brake cylinders to the floor,
also MAM sent me upgraded square tube with a bend in them. Disconnected the
system works fine both rudder and water rudders go stop to stop on the
ground or in the water taxiing. The rudder authority is great enough that
not much pedal movement is required when taking off or landing so I've not
seen any braking at those times. I think Mowat's got the right seat system
to work so, Ryan if your out there chime in. My decision to disconnect was
only a temporary solution but it works so well, it gets to stay.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Thanks Al,

Looking the situation over today your solution was one thing I considered
depending on how much travel was necessary. I also experienced the over
center when I was setting up the pedals on the work bench a while back . I
guess at the time I felt that the pedals would not have to move far enough
to jam ... guess they do.

Question:
Did you mount your brake cylinders directly to the floor relatively close

to

the base of the pedals as per MAM and Mowat? This also seems to limit the
travel of the pedals even without the slave linkage, but not as severely.

Don B.

From: Al & Deb Paxhia <paxhia2@comcast.net>
Reply-To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:11:28 -0800
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Don and Randy,
I had trouble with the brake slave linkage to the right seat.

Everything

worked great until the amphibs went on. When the rudder was pushed all

the

way to the stop the brake linkage went over center and jammed the

linkage. I

need all the water rudder movement I can get when the wind is over about
15mph. I gave up trying to get the linkage to work and just removed the
brakes from the right seat. Since I always land from the left seat no
problem.
The rudder pedals stop a couple of inches from the firewall, starting

out

with the horn through the floor in the vertical position.
Al
Moose, N526AP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:26 PM
Subject: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Hi guys,

We are installing the brake lines inside the cabin behind the rudder
pedals.
My question is how far from perpendicular does the "horn" that goes
through
the floor NEED to move fore and aft to get proper rudder travel?
(Our rudder is not hooked up yet)

We have installed the brake cylinders using MAM's revised

"instructions"

and
the great pictures found on Mowat's page. There does not seem to be a

lot

of
travel allowed aft before the pilots left pedal starts to see

interference

between the horizontal tube of the top of the pedal and the bent square
tube
that is located behind the pedal to transfer braking action from the
co-pilot's side.

Any info on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

Making progress,
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner, Randy Bowers
Super Moose #130 M-14PF 400HP, MT-prop, Aerocet 3500 amphibs, Rome, NY

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

Hi Mike,

After hitting the hay last night, actually early this morning, I was
contemplating removing the slaves. As my mind worked on this potential Moose
Mod I also considered adding cylinders to the co-pilot's side. I don't see
why T-ing them in wouldn't work.

Things to ponder:
Try to make the slaves work.
Remove slaves get flying and keep things simple.
How many times has a non instructor co-pilot every used brakes?
Putting in dual sets of cylinders adds to complexity and a maze of hose
behind the pedals.

I'm pondering ...

By the way we are incorporating a parking brake unit in the system.
Used one on my CH701 and it worked well and was very useful.

Don B.
Moose 130

From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
Organization: Maddog! BBS
Reply-To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:46:07 -0900
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

I wonder if one couldn't solve this problem by putting in separate cylinders
on the right side instead of trying to slave them off the left. Just T the
lines together??? Is there a reason this wouldn't work?

Mike
195SR

On 11/15/2003 1:44 AM, MURPHY-REBEL@DCSOL.COM wrote to MIKE DAVIS:

Don and Randy,
I had trouble with the brake slave linkage to the right seat. Everything
worked great until the amphibs went on. When the rudder was pushed all the
way to the stop the brake linkage went over center and jammed the linkage. I
need all the water rudder movement I can get when the wind is over about
15mph. I gave up trying to get the linkage to work and just removed the
brakes from the right seat. Since I always land from the left seat no
problem.
The rudder pedals stop a couple of inches from the firewall, starting out
with the horn through the floor in the vertical position.
Al
Moose, N526AP

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

That won't normally work as cylinders unport and relieve pressure when
you take your foot off the brakes on the other side.

Usually they are put in series I believe. My right seat side is fed by
the reservoir. THeir output goes into the top of the left seat master
cylinders. Left seat output goes to wheels. There are diagrams in
Bingelis and in the Spruce catalog I think.

Ken

mike.davis@dcsol.com wrote:

I wonder if one couldn't solve this problem by putting in separate cylinders
on the right side instead of trying to slave them off the left. Just T the
lines together??? Is there a reason this wouldn't work?

Mike
195SR

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

Good solution Ken !

Another way might be to put check valves in the
"T" connections, to prevent the pressure from one side running
out into the other side, instead of activating the brakes.

Totally agree with whoever said "Keep it simple and
GET IT FLYING" !! You can always 'improve' it later !! ;-) :-)

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.-----------------------
At 09:10 AM 11/15/03 -0500, you wrote:

That won't normally work as cylinders unport and relieve pressure when
you take your foot off the brakes on the other side.

Usually they are put in series I believe. My right seat side is fed by
the reservoir. THeir output goes into the top of the left seat master
cylinders. Left seat output goes to wheels. There are diagrams in
Bingelis and in the Spruce catalog I think.

Ken

mike.davis@dcsol.com wrote:
I wonder if one couldn't solve this problem by putting in separate cylinders
on the right side instead of trying to slave them off the left. Just T the
lines together??? Is there a reason this wouldn't work?

Mike
195SR

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

I'm not sure if we're talking apples and oranges or not, but I ended up making two of the straight square tube pieces longer than those supplied by MAM. I'm not in the shop so I can't look at the setup and can't remember exactly what the problem was but I do remember that the pedals didn't work right with the supplied length of square tubing. There were four square tubes all the same length, but it didn't work out until I made two of them longer. Seems OK now. Hope I'm not just cluttering up the issue with an unrelated problem.

Mike Kimball

----- Original Message -----
From: Al & Deb Paxhia <paxhia2@comcast.net>
Date: Saturday, November 15, 2003 10:45 am
Subject: Re: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

I followed MAM's instructions for mounting the brake cylinders to
the floor,
also MAM sent me upgraded square tube with a bend in them.
Disconnected the
system works fine both rudder and water rudders go stop to stop on the
ground or in the water taxiing. The rudder authority is great
enough that
not much pedal movement is required when taking off or landing so
I've not
seen any braking at those times. I think Mowat's got the right
seat system
to work so, Ryan if your out there chime in. My decision to
disconnect was
only a temporary solution but it works so well, it gets to stay.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Thanks Al,

Looking the situation over today your solution was one thing I
considered> depending on how much travel was necessary. I also
experienced the over
center when I was setting up the pedals on the work bench a
while back . I
guess at the time I felt that the pedals would not have to move
far enough
to jam ... guess they do.

Question:
Did you mount your brake cylinders directly to the floor
relatively close
to
the base of the pedals as per MAM and Mowat? This also seems to
limit the
travel of the pedals even without the slave linkage, but not as
severely.>
Don B.

From: Al & Deb Paxhia <paxhia2@comcast.net>
Reply-To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 21:11:28 -0800
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Don and Randy,
I had trouble with the brake slave linkage to the right seat.
Everything
worked great until the amphibs went on. When the rudder was
pushed all
the
way to the stop the brake linkage went over center and jammed the
linkage. I
need all the water rudder movement I can get when the wind is
over about
15mph. I gave up trying to get the linkage to work and just
removed the
brakes from the right seat. Since I always land from the left
seat no
problem.
The rudder pedals stop a couple of inches from the firewall,
startingout
with the horn through the floor in the vertical position.
Al
Moose, N526AP

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Boardman" <dboardm3@twcny.rr.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:26 PM
Subject: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

rudder> > pedals.
that goes
through
"instructions"
and
to be a
lot
of
interference
bent square
tube
from the
amphibs, Rome, NY
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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

I tossed the interconnect and installed cylinders with built in reservoirs
on the right than run in series to the left set of cylinders then to brakes,
no external reservoir.

Scott
Moose #174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Don
Boardman
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 6:26 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Hi guys,

We are installing the brake lines inside the cabin behind the rudder pedals.
My question is how far from perpendicular does the "horn" that goes through
the floor NEED to move fore and aft to get proper rudder travel?
(Our rudder is not hooked up yet)

We have installed the brake cylinders using MAM's revised "instructions" and
the great pictures found on Mowat's page. There does not seem to be a lot of
travel allowed aft before the pilots left pedal starts to see interference
between the horizontal tube of the top of the pedal and the bent square tube
that is located behind the pedal to transfer braking action from the
co-pilot's side.

Any info on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

Making progress,
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner, Randy Bowers
Super Moose #130 M-14PF 400HP, MT-prop, Aerocet 3500 amphibs, Rome, NY

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

I am doing the same as Scott. We played with the interconnect on Kakeldeys
and finally threw the pieces in the scrap pile. We also used ACS pedals
which have a longer arm for more leverage on the brakes. I swapped my pedal
brackets to the opposite sides and rigged the pedals a little aft so the
brake pedal arms are further from the firewall. Swapping brackets side to
side then has the steering arms sticking straight down thru the floor. The
brakes are not hooked up yet but appears it will work well.

Steve Rhodes
Moose #173

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott & Leere' Aldrich" <flynski@mwutah.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 01:11
Subject: RE: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

I tossed the interconnect and installed cylinders with built in reservoirs
on the right than run in series to the left set of cylinders then to

brakes,

no external reservoir.

Scott
Moose #174

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Don
Boardman
Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 6:26 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Hi guys,

We are installing the brake lines inside the cabin behind the rudder

pedals.

My question is how far from perpendicular does the "horn" that goes

through

the floor NEED to move fore and aft to get proper rudder travel?
(Our rudder is not hooked up yet)

We have installed the brake cylinders using MAM's revised "instructions"

and

the great pictures found on Mowat's page. There does not seem to be a lot

of

travel allowed aft before the pilots left pedal starts to see interference
between the horizontal tube of the top of the pedal and the bent square

tube

that is located behind the pedal to transfer braking action from the
co-pilot's side.

Any info on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

Making progress,
Regards,
Don Boardman
& Partner, Randy Bowers
Super Moose #130 M-14PF 400HP, MT-prop, Aerocet 3500 amphibs, Rome, NY

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:01 am**

Hate to rain on this parade, but if you think about it, check valves (on both masters) won't work. You'd end up with parking brakes. Ya gotta series one into the next. It's done from the co-pilot into the pilot, so that the pilot is the last one to run out of pedal, when he forgets to check fluid levels (or a leak develops). I never wanted brakes on the passenger side, anyway. I've always been paranoid about a passenger getting spooked and putting us up on the nose. I want to be the one to do that.

Bill

From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Date: 2003/11/15 Sat AM 09:21:13 CST
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose Rudder Pedal Travel

Good solution Ken !

Another way might be to put check valves in the
"T" connections, to prevent the pressure from one side running
out into the other side, instead of activating the brakes.

Totally agree with whoever said "Keep it simple and
GET IT FLYING" !! You can always 'improve' it later !! ;-) :-)

......bobp

----------------------------------orig.-----------------------
At 09:10 AM 11/15/03 -0500, you wrote:
That won't normally work as cylinders unport and relieve pressure when
you take your foot off the brakes on the other side.

Usually they are put in series I believe. My right seat side is fed by
the reservoir. THeir output goes into the top of the left seat master
cylinders. Left seat output goes to wheels. There are diagrams in
Bingelis and in the Spruce catalog I think.

Ken

mike.davis@dcsol.com wrote:
I wonder if one couldn't solve this problem by putting in separate cylinders
on the right side instead of trying to slave them off the left. Just T the
lines together??? Is there a reason this wouldn't work?

Mike
195SR

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