The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:58 pm**

In the instruction book of my rebel, mam write about the option to dip
every 21000 rivets in primer before to fix them! I have talked of that
to some other manufacturer who use the same rivet type and they told me
that the airplane will may be good for 60 instead of 50 years!?!? I
will be very old in 50 years! Anyway I am ready to do it if it is
really better. I own a industrial gas and welding products distribution
and I do sale industrial paint from Sico in addition to the mains
products. They now have an aviation line (developped mainly for
Bombardier). I will probably use there products for the exterior
primer/finishing paint but....... They have an industrial primer ready
to spray (one composition, no mix and mess...) that support both epoxy
primer and polyurethan paint on top of it. Most one composition primer
will not. For the inside I will use the epoxy primer I have received
with the chemical kit but for the rivet dipping it could be more
pratical (no mix , no lost of products if you mix to much and subsequent
primer will not affect it) What do you think about that?

Some people say it is better to fix parts together when the primer still
wet? My plan was to prepare parts (drill, debured, clean, prime(let
dry) and then final assembly... Is anything wrong with that?

I will start aileron this weekend, it is probably better to know that
before than after!

thanks to every one

Jean
Rebel 747R

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:58 pm**

Jean, do yourself a favour and dip them all. The main thing that favours
this is when you insert them wet some of the epoxy scrapes off going into
the hole makes an "O-ring" under the head of the rivet. The body being
dipped coats the mandrel end and seals it to the body when it gets pulled.
Between the two functions of the epoxy this makes for a leak free airframe.
The same applies to putting panels together WET. IF you put the parts
together and pull the rivets while the epoxy is still wet it will seal the
seams and add strength to the fuselage.

There has been much debate on the Wet vs Dry assembly and you can seach the
archives most likely and read all about it!

Cheers,
Wayne O'Shea

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean Poirier" <oxyport@globetrotter.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:54 PM
Subject: dipping rivet in primer.....

In the instruction book of my rebel, mam write about the option to dip
every 21000 rivets in primer before to fix them! I have talked of that
to some other manufacturer who use the same rivet type and they told me
that the airplane will may be good for 60 instead of 50 years!?!? I
will be very old in 50 years! Anyway I am ready to do it if it is
really better. I own a industrial gas and welding products distribution
and I do sale industrial paint from Sico in addition to the mains
products. They now have an aviation line (developped mainly for
Bombardier). I will probably use there products for the exterior
primer/finishing paint but....... They have an industrial primer ready
to spray (one composition, no mix and mess...) that support both epoxy
primer and polyurethan paint on top of it. Most one composition primer
will not. For the inside I will use the epoxy primer I have received
with the chemical kit but for the rivet dipping it could be more
pratical (no mix , no lost of products if you mix to much and subsequent
primer will not affect it) What do you think about that?

Some people say it is better to fix parts together when the primer still
wet? My plan was to prepare parts (drill, debured, clean, prime(let
dry) and then final assembly... Is anything wrong with that?

I will start aileron this weekend, it is probably better to know that
before than after!

thanks to every one

Jean
Rebel 747R

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:58 pm**

Hi Jean

As always its your choice but the idea seems to be to fill the spaces
under the rivet heads (and between joined sheets of metal) with primer
to keep out water. Yes 6061 is fairly corrosion resistant but trapped
water will lead to much faster corrosion than bare surfaces. Water loves
to wick into joints. Water that freezes in the joints is even more
damaging. Rivets inserted with wet primer and wet primer between the
joints (sometimes called feying surfaces) will keep the water out.
Precoated dry primer is better than nothing but it won't keep the water
out. Anyway I think it is much more important to get wet primer in the
joints than to do anything on the exposed surfaces. I suspect that one
part primer will be almost as good as epoxy for this as long as it is
made for aluminum. Experience seems to have shown that the epoxy is best
though. It sure does adhere well.

Also the mixed primer keeps fine in the freezer for at least a week. I
mixed lots of small 1 oz or less batches of primer and had very little
wastage. Often I had several pieces waiting to rivet whenever I mixed a
batch. It was easier to scotch brite, degrease and prime several pieces
at once.

Ken

Jean Poirier wrote:

In the instruction book of my rebel, mam write about the option to dip
every 21000 rivets in primer before to fix them! I have talked of that
to some other manufacturer who use the same rivet type and they told me
that the airplane will may be good for 60 instead of 50 years!?!? I
will be very old in 50 years! Anyway I am ready to do it if it is
really better. I own a industrial gas and welding products distribution
and I do sale industrial paint from Sico in addition to the mains
products. They now have an aviation line (developped mainly for
Bombardier). I will probably use there products for the exterior
primer/finishing paint but....... They have an industrial primer ready
to spray (one composition, no mix and mess...) that support both epoxy
primer and polyurethan paint on top of it. Most one composition primer
will not. For the inside I will use the epoxy primer I have received
with the chemical kit but for the rivet dipping it could be more
pratical (no mix , no lost of products if you mix to much and subsequent
primer will not affect it) What do you think about that?

Some people say it is better to fix parts together when the primer still
wet? My plan was to prepare parts (drill, debured, clean, prime(let
dry) and then final assembly... Is anything wrong with that?

I will start aileron this weekend, it is probably better to know that
before than after!

thanks to every one

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Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:58 pm**

Hi Jean !

I think Wayne & Ken have covered it ! Use the epoxy primer,
dip all rivets (especially the stainless steel ones !), assemble WET !!

The question of lasting 60 years instead of 50 years
applies very much to spraying primer ANYWHERE !! The 6061 Aluminum
will last longer than you without anything, so all you do is add
weight, and a lot of work, if you prime the inside ...

The only place it might be worth doing is inside the tail
feathers - elevator, rudder, and stab, as water collects there more
than elsewhere, and they aren't well ventilated. And you could
just brush it on there.

One thought though - if you ARE going to spray the epoxy,
WEAR a positive air flow hood to keep it out of your lungs -
it's NASTY stuff in spray form !!!

Protecting the joints is THE most important consideration,
and that's why the factory have specified brushing the epoxy on
both sides and assembling WET.

Wayne & I have both seen the insides of Rebels that have
been outside for over 10 years, and on floats - they're still shiney !!

For the outside, I've heard of builders using SICO primer
and paint with good results, so go ahead if that's your choice ! :-)
I'm sure it'll be a good airplane, with all the care you're taking !

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.-----------------------------
At 04:54 PM 10/27/03 -0500, you wrote:

In the instruction book of my rebel, mam write about the option to dip
every 21000 rivets in primer before to fix them! I have talked of that
to some other manufacturer who use the same rivet type and they told me
that the airplane will may be good for 60 instead of 50 years!?!? I
will be very old in 50 years! Anyway I am ready to do it if it is
really better. I own a industrial gas and welding products distribution
and I do sale industrial paint from Sico in addition to the mains
products. They now have an aviation line (developped mainly for
Bombardier). I will probably use there products for the exterior
primer/finishing paint but....... They have an industrial primer ready
to spray (one composition, no mix and mess...) that support both epoxy
primer and polyurethan paint on top of it. Most one composition primer
will not. For the inside I will use the epoxy primer I have received
with the chemical kit but for the rivet dipping it could be more
pratical (no mix , no lost of products if you mix to much and subsequent
primer will not affect it) What do you think about that?

Some people say it is better to fix parts together when the primer still
wet? My plan was to prepare parts (drill, debured, clean, prime(let
dry) and then final assembly... Is anything wrong with that?

I will start aileron this weekend, it is probably better to know that
before than after!

thanks to every one

Jean
Rebel 747R

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