The Murphy Builders Site

Al
Ron Kakeldey and I told MAM the v brace was too light-they sent us beefed up
ones but looks about the same to me. Welded tabs on Ron's and still hangin
on to that M14 with 50 hours on floats but have not been in any real big
water yet. We have a 4130 angle bracket with gussets between the v brace and
top mount. I think I will sleeve my upper tube and then gusset the tabs. Say
hi to Shivers if you see him.
Steve Rhodes
Moose 173
rhodes5@gci.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Al & Deb Paxhia" <paxhia2@comcast.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 06:31
Subject: SR V-brace

A couple of weeks ago in heavy water up near Echo Bay, BC the v-brace

broke

near the bolt tab where it attaches to the wing carry through. Yesterday I
learned a second lesson, don't play in choppy water with a broken v-brace.
This time some of the rivets that hold the instrument panel to the side
posts sheared. Luckily no damage only needed to replace the rivets. For

now

staying I'm out of the water until the v-brace is fixed.
This is what I found out today.
1. MAM has a new motor mount for the Lycoming engine with a 5th firewall
mount that attaches to the v-brace.
2. Other builders have expressed concern regarding the welded tab on the

end

of the v-brace tube.
3.The geometry of the v-brace needs to be in line from the wing carry
through to the 5 th engine mount, not to a angle bracket at the

glareshield

level.
4. One builder has welded gussets on the side of the tabs to give them

more

strength.
Has anyone had a problem in this area and are there any other solutions

that

are in use out there?
Al
Moose on 3500 Montana's

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A couple of weeks ago in heavy water up near Echo Bay, BC the v-brace broke
near the bolt tab where it attaches to the wing carry through. Yesterday I
learned a second lesson, don't play in choppy water with a broken v-brace.
This time some of the rivets that hold the instrument panel to the side
posts sheared. Luckily no damage only needed to replace the rivets. For now
staying I'm out of the water until the v-brace is fixed.
This is what I found out today.
1. MAM has a new motor mount for the Lycoming engine with a 5th firewall
mount that attaches to the v-brace.
2. Other builders have expressed concern regarding the welded tab on the end
of the v-brace tube.
3.The geometry of the v-brace needs to be in line from the wing carry
through to the 5 th engine mount, not to a angle bracket at the glareshield
level.
4. One builder has welded gussets on the side of the tabs to give them more
strength.
Has anyone had a problem in this area and are there any other solutions that
are in use out there?
Al
Moose on 3500 Montana's




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Al, was it the v tube that broke or the tab itself? (Do you have a picture?)

I believe you did all the 3500 mods? but specifically did you extend the top
mount side doublers back into the vertical post?

To add to what Steve said, along with the 4130 gusseted angle to connect the
top mount to the v brace we added a vertical aluminum channel behind the
4130 bracket that ties in with the top horizontal channel on the firewall.

I ran into Chris Gill awhile back at Lake Hood and he mentioned he was
hearing a "banging" or tin caning sound when on rough water. His is
standard 2500 with the Lyc. and no v brace. Have not heard if he has
checked into this further, sounds like he should.


Scott
Moose #174




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Scott,
The tab broke off where it was welded to the tube. I do have doublers, the
aft one is inside the square tube and the forward one is on the outside of
the square tube. I'm not sure what you mean about extending back, the
doublers are about 10" long two on each side.
I like the idea of tying into the horizontal channel to the v brace. Without
the v brace there is a lot of movement the windshield area goes from a
rectangle to a parallelogram in several directions.
I will take and post a picture.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott & Leere' Aldrich" <flynski@mwutah.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 6:32 AM
Subject: RE: SR V-brace

Al, was it the v tube that broke or the tab itself? (Do you have a

picture?)

I believe you did all the 3500 mods? but specifically did you extend the

top

mount side doublers back into the vertical post?

To add to what Steve said, along with the 4130 gusseted angle to connect

the

top mount to the v brace we added a vertical aluminum channel behind the
4130 bracket that ties in with the top horizontal channel on the firewall.

I ran into Chris Gill awhile back at Lake Hood and he mentioned he was
hearing a "banging" or tin caning sound when on rough water. His is
standard 2500 with the Lyc. and no v brace. Have not heard if he has
checked into this further, sounds like he should.


Scott
Moose #174

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Al,
The doubler I was referring to is FUS 709 of the upgrade. It is the doubler
that runs along the sides of the forward fuselage, between the skin and the
upper engine mount brackets. The 3500 ones run farther back than the
originals and pick up the vertical door posts (figure 13a in the upgrade
instructions).

The shear of the instrument panel to side post rivets is interesting. If no
other damage it seems this could possibly be just from the weight of the
instrument panel itself??

Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Al
& Deb Paxhia
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:39 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: SR V-brace


Scott,
The tab broke off where it was welded to the tube. I do have doublers, the
aft one is inside the square tube and the forward one is on the outside of
the square tube. I'm not sure what you mean about extending back, the
doublers are about 10" long two on each side.
I like the idea of tying into the horizontal channel to the v brace. Without
the v brace there is a lot of movement the windshield area goes from a
rectangle to a parallelogram in several directions.
I will take and post a picture.
Al



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FUS 709 does run to the door posts, also the outside post skins have been up
graded to .063 from the original .032. I think your correct that the weight
of the instrument panel is the problem. I was out flying today on runways
and everything works fine.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott & Leere' Aldrich" <flynski@mwutah.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: SR V-brace

Al,
The doubler I was referring to is FUS 709 of the upgrade. It is the

doubler

that runs along the sides of the forward fuselage, between the skin and

the

upper engine mount brackets. The 3500 ones run farther back than the
originals and pick up the vertical door posts (figure 13a in the upgrade
instructions).

The shear of the instrument panel to side post rivets is interesting. If

no

other damage it seems this could possibly be just from the weight of the
instrument panel itself??

Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Al
& Deb Paxhia
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:39 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: SR V-brace


Scott,
The tab broke off where it was welded to the tube. I do have doublers,

the

aft one is inside the square tube and the forward one is on the outside of
the square tube. I'm not sure what you mean about extending back, the
doublers are about 10" long two on each side.
I like the idea of tying into the horizontal channel to the v brace.

Without

the v brace there is a lot of movement the windshield area goes from a
rectangle to a parallelogram in several directions.
I will take and post a picture.
Al

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Scott,
There is a picture of the v-brace tab posted.
Al



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Wayne,
Thanks for the input, I'll have another look tomorrow. I hate surprises!
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: SR V-brace

Don't sell yourself short Al! It's not the weight of the panel ! It's the
same movement that broke your v brace. :o(( Make sure you have a REALLY

good

look at all the door post rivets, especially the ones up at the top under
the wing root fairings! Make sure it's not just the paint holding the

rivet

heads in place... with the bodies already sheared off.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Al & Deb Paxhia" <paxhia2@comcast.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: SR V-brace

FUS 709 does run to the door posts, also the outside post skins have

been

up

graded to .063 from the original .032. I think your correct that the

weight

of the instrument panel is the problem. I was out flying today on

runways

and everything works fine.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott & Leere' Aldrich" <flynski@mwutah.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: SR V-brace

Al,
The doubler I was referring to is FUS 709 of the upgrade. It is the

doubler

that runs along the sides of the forward fuselage, between the skin

and

the

upper engine mount brackets. The 3500 ones run farther back than the
originals and pick up the vertical door posts (figure 13a in the

upgrade

instructions).

The shear of the instrument panel to side post rivets is interesting.

If

no

other damage it seems this could possibly be just from the weight of

the

instrument panel itself??

Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of

Al

& Deb Paxhia
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:39 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: SR V-brace


Scott,
The tab broke off where it was welded to the tube. I do have

doublers,

the

aft one is inside the square tube and the forward one is on the

outside

of

the square tube. I'm not sure what you mean about extending back, the
doublers are about 10" long two on each side.
I like the idea of tying into the horizontal channel to the v brace.

Without

the v brace there is a lot of movement the windshield area goes from a
rectangle to a parallelogram in several directions.
I will take and post a picture.
Al

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Don't sell yourself short Al! It's not the weight of the panel ! It's the
same movement that broke your v brace. :o(( Make sure you have a REALLY good
look at all the door post rivets, especially the ones up at the top under
the wing root fairings! Make sure it's not just the paint holding the rivet
heads in place... with the bodies already sheared off.

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Al & Deb Paxhia" <paxhia2@comcast.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: SR V-brace

FUS 709 does run to the door posts, also the outside post skins have been

up

graded to .063 from the original .032. I think your correct that the

weight

of the instrument panel is the problem. I was out flying today on runways
and everything works fine.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott & Leere' Aldrich" <flynski@mwutah.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:39 AM
Subject: RE: SR V-brace

Al,
The doubler I was referring to is FUS 709 of the upgrade. It is the

doubler

that runs along the sides of the forward fuselage, between the skin and

the

upper engine mount brackets. The 3500 ones run farther back than the
originals and pick up the vertical door posts (figure 13a in the upgrade
instructions).

The shear of the instrument panel to side post rivets is interesting.

If

no

other damage it seems this could possibly be just from the weight of the
instrument panel itself??

Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Al
& Deb Paxhia
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:39 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: SR V-brace


Scott,
The tab broke off where it was welded to the tube. I do have doublers,

the

aft one is inside the square tube and the forward one is on the outside

of

the square tube. I'm not sure what you mean about extending back, the
doublers are about 10" long two on each side.
I like the idea of tying into the horizontal channel to the v brace.

Without

the v brace there is a lot of movement the windshield area goes from a
rectangle to a parallelogram in several directions.
I will take and post a picture.
Al

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Wayne,
I took a good look at everything from the door posts forward and did not
find any damage or sheared rivets. Looked best I could inside the wing
carry through and didn't see any rivet bodies in there. I don't plan any
more water operations until the v-brace is fixed.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: SR V-brace

Don't sell yourself short Al! It's not the weight of the panel ! It's the
same movement that broke your v brace. :o(( Make sure you have a REALLY

good

look at all the door post rivets, especially the ones up at the top under
the wing root fairings! Make sure it's not just the paint holding the

rivet

heads in place... with the bodies already sheared off.

Wayne

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Scott, Al and all,

The oil canning I've always heard on my SR-2500 occurs when landing in any
water more than minimally choppy. I got very scientific and located the souce
of the noise by having a registered civil engineer stand on the rear of one of
my floats and bounce up and down. It turns out the noise was not coming from
around my sky lights but was coming from oil canning of the exterior floor of
the cabin in the area of the rear seats.

The noise only seems to occur after landing when I pull pack and dig the rear
of my floats into the water - which makes sense. The tails of the floats are
then feeling the pressure of the waves on the water and causing the minimal
twisting of the float structure and oil canning of the fuselage skin..

I do not have the V-brace and have not noticed any buckling or rivet failure
but will continue to keep an eye out. I have landed in whitecaps on local
lakes.

Also, any body put a Moose or SR on ski's yet???

Chris Gill
SR#025, Anchorage, AK approx. 80hrs total, 30 on floats, getting better and
better!


On 10/6/2003 4:47 PM, FLYNSKI@MWUTAH.COM wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v5.6.450.
-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 05:32:52 -0800
-> Received: from mail.mwutah.com ([66.45.40.169]) EHLO=mail.mwutah.com
-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v5.6.450. with SMTP
-> id 60418906; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 05:32:15 -0800
-> Received: from ONE ([208.186.183.206])
-> by mail.mwutah.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA08961
-> for <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>; Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:32:13 -0600
-> From: "Scott & Leere' Aldrich" <flynski@mwutah.com>
-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> Subject: RE: SR V-brace
-> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 07:32:13 -0600
-> Message-ID: <APEKJAFLEKAKBHOCOILIEEHGCIAA.flynski@mwutah.com>
-> X-Orig-MIME-Version: 1.0
-> X-Orig-Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
-> X-Orig-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-> X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
-> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
-> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0)
-> Importance: Normal
-> In-Reply-To: <001c01c386fa$e6fb9820$6501a8c0@attbi.com>
-> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165
-> X-Antivirus-Remover: Message was filtered through wsMailGuard (wsAV)
-> X-Spam-Remover: Message was filtered through wsMailGuard Professional
(wsSG4 using SpamAssassin)
->
-> Al, was it the v tube that broke or the tab itself? (Do you have a picture?)
->
-> I believe you did all the 3500 mods? but specifically did you extend the top
-> mount side doublers back into the vertical post?
->
-> To add to what Steve said, along with the 4130 gusseted angle to connect the
-> top mount to the v brace we added a vertical aluminum channel behind the
-> 4130 bracket that ties in with the top horizontal channel on the firewall.
->
-> I ran into Chris Gill awhile back at Lake Hood and he mentioned he was
-> hearing a "banging" or tin caning sound when on rough water. His is
-> standard 2500 with the Lyc. and no v brace. Have not heard if he has
-> checked into this further, sounds like he should.
->
->
-> Scott
-> Moose #174
->
->




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