moose wings fastbuild or not

[Nielsenbe]

I am at a point where I need to order my wing kit. I was wondering if anyone
has numbers of the build times for standard and fast build. It would be nice
to save the 7K but also nice to be "mostly" done when they get here. I will
have at least a year to work on either kit once I get it. I can not afford the
fuse kit any faster than that and maybe 2 years after I get the wings if I get
the fast build.

Thanks, Brad
SR222



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[Al & Deb Paxhia]

IMHO, for the first time builder I would multiply Wayne's numbers X 4 also
add some more D's because there is more than one disassemble and assemble.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: moose wings fastbuild or not

PAIR< of SR2500 wings = 250hrs from kit. This includes tank float

senders/wiring conduit installations & tank pressure check, etc(does not
include wing tips!) The SR3500/Moose upgrades when done during original
construction are pretty much insignificant (sure aren't after the fact
though!! :o(!! ) and may add around 10 to 15 hrs to total build time.

Two Ailerons & Two Flaps = 50hrs from kit.

This is actual working time and does not account for head/ass scratching

etc

while staring at a manual.!

Also take into account that I have done this D-C-D-D-S-C-R a few more

times

than the average guy!

Cheers,
Wayne O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

P.S. In case you didn't comprehend......that's
Drill-Cleco-Disassemble-Debur-Scotchbrite-Chromate-Rivet !

----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 2:50 PM
Subject: moose wings fastbuild or not

I am at a point where I need to order my wing kit. I was wondering if

anyone

has numbers of the build times for standard and fast build. It would be

nice

to save the 7K but also nice to be "mostly" done when they get here. I

will

have at least a year to work on either kit once I get it. I can not

afford

the

fuse kit any faster than that and maybe 2 years after I get the wings if

I

get

the fast build.

Thanks, Brad
SR222

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[bdelcambre]

Paul has a point here and he's absolutely right. I'll argue (discuss) another side, however. Without a doubt, if the satisfaction of making something with your own hands isn't enough, neither fast build nor standard kit will work out. For a first time builder, the standard kit will offer more of this satisfaction, in that you start with a stack of little pieces and end up with airplane parts. Don't gloss over this concept. There is a very powerful 'grin factor' when you've completed something as simple as an elevator. The standard kit also offers more of an education. If you build a plane and say that you didn't learn something, in the process, you probably lie about other things, too. For those who've built planes before, or have significant experience in aviation mechanics, there's an awful lot of stuff that's repetitive in the standard kit. Personally, I get a kick out of doing "systems" work. The sheet metal is fun (don't fool yourself, even the fast build has !
a
lot of sheet metal work to do!)
, but I never felt the need to pull 30,000 rivets. Then, there's the time/$$$ factor. When I bought my kit, I believe the difference was $11,000 for the complete fast build. Considering that the complete plane is going to at least tickle $100,000.00, it seemed like a bargain to save 3 years of my time for such a minimal percentage of the finished plane. I haven't yet mentioned the quality of the fast build components. Home builders typically do really good work, but let me assure you, the fast build stuff is absolutely first rate work.

Fast build / standard kit? Hey man, it depends on you! If the additional cost is gonna make you wait 2 years to order the rest of the kit, why bother even THINKING about the fast build. Get the standard stuff and start having fun! If you've done enough sheet metal work so that you really don't look forward to all the grunt work, you have an option that'll still allow you to have the result, while focusing on the more interesting stuff. Never lose sight of the fact that we do this for fun. An additional benefit is that in the end, you have an airplane.

Once again; MHO

Bill Delcambre

From: "Paul Chamberlin" <cham@quicklinks.on.ca>
Date: 2003/09/19 Fri PM 04:43:10 CDT
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: moose wings fastbuild or not

sory to sound harsh but maybe it is my experience talking.....I dont see why
anyone would order a fast build kit...unless they were so pressed for time
that they couldnt afford the calendar time....I love sheet metal work and I
cant see why anyone , especially someone who wanted to fly a HOME
BUILT...( HOME built) would want to give up the satisfaction of doing it
themselves. It isnt rocket science....and it sure gives a sense of
accomplishment if you take your tme and do it right. Maybe that's thew whole
thing.....I have only been on this chat for a couple months , but the
overall feeling I get from reading messages is that people are afraid to
make mistakes and learn from them. I realize we arent building kitchen
cupboards and it IS an airplane..but you really cant screw it up as long as
you pay attention to details and read AC 43-13. and holy crap...it is fun

paul

(Probably gonna be the devils advocate)


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: September 19, 2003 2:50 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: moose wings fastbuild or not


I am at a point where I need to order my wing kit. I was wondering if anyone
has numbers of the build times for standard and fast build. It would be nice
to save the 7K but also nice to be "mostly" done when they get here. I will
have at least a year to work on either kit once I get it. I can not afford
the
fuse kit any faster than that and maybe 2 years after I get the wings if I
get
the fast build.

Thanks, Brad
SR222



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[Paul Chamberlin]

sory to sound harsh but maybe it is my experience talking.....I dont see why
anyone would order a fast build kit...unless they were so pressed for time
that they couldnt afford the calendar time....I love sheet metal work and I
cant see why anyone , especially someone who wanted to fly a HOME
BUILT...( HOME built) would want to give up the satisfaction of doing it
themselves. It isnt rocket science....and it sure gives a sense of
accomplishment if you take your tme and do it right. Maybe that's thew whole
thing.....I have only been on this chat for a couple months , but the
overall feeling I get from reading messages is that people are afraid to
make mistakes and learn from them. I realize we arent building kitchen
cupboards and it IS an airplane..but you really cant screw it up as long as
you pay attention to details and read AC 43-13. and holy crap...it is fun

paul

(Probably gonna be the devils advocate)


-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: September 19, 2003 2:50 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: moose wings fastbuild or not


I am at a point where I need to order my wing kit. I was wondering if anyone
has numbers of the build times for standard and fast build. It would be nice
to save the 7K but also nice to be "mostly" done when they get here. I will
have at least a year to work on either kit once I get it. I can not afford
the
fuse kit any faster than that and maybe 2 years after I get the wings if I
get
the fast build.

Thanks, Brad
SR222



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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

PAIR< of SR2500 wings = 250hrs from kit. This includes tank float

senders/wiring conduit installations & tank pressure check, etc(does not
include wing tips!) The SR3500/Moose upgrades when done during original
construction are pretty much insignificant (sure aren't after the fact
though!! :o(!! ) and may add around 10 to 15 hrs to total build time.

Two Ailerons & Two Flaps = 50hrs from kit.

This is actual working time and does not account for head/ass scratching etc
while staring at a manual.!

Also take into account that I have done this D-C-D-D-S-C-R a few more times
than the average guy!

Cheers,
Wayne O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

P.S. In case you didn't comprehend......that's
Drill-Cleco-Disassemble-Debur-Scotchbrite-Chromate-Rivet !

----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 2:50 PM
Subject: moose wings fastbuild or not

I am at a point where I need to order my wing kit. I was wondering if

anyone

has numbers of the build times for standard and fast build. It would be

nice

to save the 7K but also nice to be "mostly" done when they get here. I

will

have at least a year to work on either kit once I get it. I can not afford

the

fuse kit any faster than that and maybe 2 years after I get the wings if I

get

the fast build.

Thanks, Brad
SR222

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[rbesecker]

I just spent 8 hours drilling (and re-drilling) the stringers for the SR2500
left wing leading edge. The top and bottom skins also took ~8 hours (it
started as the right wing, but I got confused with the stringer
orientation--thank goodness for two wings). I'm a low-time pilot, a self
taught, non-certificated A&P-in-training, and I'm glad I didn't buy the
fastbuild kit. I also have a regular job, so the 8-hour-airplane-days are
few. But when I'm done, there shouldn't be anything that I don't know about
this airplane, and that gives me an extra good feeling.

After I finished the horizontal stab/elevator--I thought, "this will be a
piece of cake". Two wing skeletons later, I now know why MAM packages the
sub-kits the way they do. The wings (sub-kit #2) are sub kit #1 on steroids.

If you're short for time, long for money, and need to be flying now, go with
the fast build or buy a plane. Otherwise, save your money for a reliable
engine (and prop) and avionics, and put in the sweat equity--the grin factor
you get after each part's completion is priceless (you'll also be amazed as
to how many spots in your house can store completed airplane parts).

Remember, it's amazing how strong a bunch of beer-can thin metal, held
together with a billion rivets, can be--I think that figuring that out is 90
percent of the building process.

Just my post-8-hours-of-drilling-and-deburring-stringers ranting,

Good luck with your project.

Rick Besecker
2154 E Trenton Ave

Fresno CA 93720

(559) 297-8361

rbesecker@comcast.net

Murphy SR2500 178SR-1




<Nielsenbe@aol.com> wrote in message news:15d.24d41968.2c9ca9f3@aol.com...

I am at a point where I need to order my wing kit. I was wondering if

anyone

has numbers of the build times for standard and fast build. It would be

nice

to save the 7K but also nice to be "mostly" done when they get here. I

will

have at least a year to work on either kit once I get it. I can not afford

the

fuse kit any faster than that and maybe 2 years after I get the wings if I

get

the fast build.

Thanks, Brad
SR222

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[RJ Thomas]

One more opinion to add; I just checked my log and I spent a little over
800 hours putting together two Moose wings. This does include
installation of the LE landing lights but does not include the
fiberglass (or fibreglass if you must) wing tips.
At least in my shop, there is/was a significant amount of head
scratching time spent trying to convolve the original manual with the
upgrade instructions to obtain a straightforward construction sequence.
I am a first time builder and I didn't even consider a quick build. I
agree with Paul; its fun.
I also agree with Bill D. The workmanship on his quick build is first
rate. Maybe next time............

Cheers, rj
=========================
=========================
======================
========
R J Thomas
Lafayette, LA

SR 2500/3500 #140 Slow Build

rj.thomas@halliburton.com

(337) 984-2815


-----Original Message-----
From: Al & Deb Paxhia [mailto:paxhia2@comcast.net]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 7:58 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: moose wings fastbuild or not

IMHO, for the first time builder I would multiply Wayne's numbers X 4
also
add some more D's because there is more than one disassemble and
assemble.
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: moose wings fastbuild or not

PAIR< of SR2500 wings = 250hrs from kit. This includes tank float

senders/wiring conduit installations & tank pressure check, etc(does

not

include wing tips!) The SR3500/Moose upgrades when done during

original

construction are pretty much insignificant (sure aren't after the fact
though!! :o(!! ) and may add around 10 to 15 hrs to total build time.

Two Ailerons & Two Flaps = 50hrs from kit.

This is actual working time and does not account for head/ass

scratching
etc

while staring at a manual.!

Also take into account that I have done this D-C-D-D-S-C-R a few more

times

than the average guy!

Cheers,
Wayne O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

P.S. In case you didn't comprehend......that's
Drill-Cleco-Disassemble-Debur-Scotchbrite-Chromate-Rivet !

----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 2:50 PM
Subject: moose wings fastbuild or not

I am at a point where I need to order my wing kit. I was wondering

if

anyone

has numbers of the build times for standard and fast build. It would

be

nice

to save the 7K but also nice to be "mostly" done when they get here.

I

will

have at least a year to work on either kit once I get it. I can not

afford

the

fuse kit any faster than that and maybe 2 years after I get the

wings if
I

get

the fast build.

Thanks, Brad
SR222

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[Nielsenbe]

Thanks for all the replies, There are two main factors that sort of scare me
into getting the fastbuild. I don't know if I can get the wings straight
enough to have a quality product and sealing the tanks. While I asking about the
wings......... what do you guys think of the landing light and wing tip strobe
options? I am going to get the 120 gal option but $1000 is no small chunk for
an option. I am not what I would consider in the money to burn catagory.
Thanks, Brad



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[rognal]

Brad,

I'm a first time builder w/no previous sheet metal experience. I built the
Rebel wing on a flat table using a 4 foot bubble level and a small machinist's
level. Just be deliberate and check for level often. It was not difficult at
all.

As for sealing the fuel tanks, IMO this was the worst part of the whole
builder experience. It is a gooey, sticky, messy, time sensitive, and
expensive substance to work with. But that's all it is. As far as putting it
all together with Pro-Seal, it's just like making a peanut butter sandwich-
spread it on thick and put the two slices together. Besides, from what I have
read on this list, buying the fastbuild wing is no guarantee that your tanks
will be sealed.

My two cents.

Roger Hoffman #687R
Eugene, OR USA!



On 9/22/2003 8:06 AM, NIELSENBE@AOL.COM wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
->There are two main factors that sort of scare me
-> into getting the fastbuild. I don't know if I can get the wings straight
-> enough to have a quality product and sealing the tanks.



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[mike.davis]

Hi Brad,

As long as you build your table true and straight, and take the time to take
good measurements of the wing when the manual calls for it, you will get it
staight. As for the wing tip options, I personally chose to delete the wing
tips from my kit and will buy wing tips from Dave Fife when they are ready.

Mike
195SR

On 9/22/2003 12:07 PM, MURPHY-REBEL@DCSOL.COM wrote to MIKE DAVIS:

Thanks for all the replies, There are two main factors that sort of scare me
into getting the fastbuild. I don't know if I can get the wings straight
enough to have a quality product and sealing the tanks. While I asking about

the

wings......... what do you guys think of the landing light and wing tip

strobe

options? I am going to get the 120 gal option but $1000 is no small chunk

for

an option. I am not what I would consider in the money to burn catagory.
Thanks, Brad

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[klehman]

Hi Brad

Don't recall what the manual says but on the Rebel I made a wooden jig
that sat over the front and rear spar with a level top surface. It was
adjustable so that you could level it exactly on one end of the wind,
then move it to the other end for comparison. Shim that end of the wing
to make that end read level. Not a big deal, just check it before
drilling anything.

If you want to be ultra picky, a machinist level for about cdn$80. or so
will let you level that top board to less than 0.002" difference between
the spars. Overkill for sure as I think a carpenter's level is good enough.

I spent at least 40 hours making custom landing lights in the leading
edges so that might be a worthwhile option. Unfortunately leading edge
lights complicate installing aftermarket leading edge cuffs if you ever
decide to add those, so wing tip lights might be a good idea.

Whelen and Aeroflash make combination strobe/nav lights but I'd keep
that decision, and the money in the bank, till you are near flying.
Besides strobe power supplies don't like to be stored too long although
that may not be true for the new higher price units.

Like most guys, I also found the proseal to be intimidating but
relatively easy to do once I got started.

Ken

Nielsenbe@aol.com wrote:

Thanks for all the replies, There are two main factors that sort of scare me
into getting the fastbuild. I don't know if I can get the wings straight
enough to have a quality product and sealing the tanks. While I asking about the
wings......... what do you guys think of the landing light and wing tip strobe
options? I am going to get the 120 gal option but $1000 is no small chunk for
an option. I am not what I would consider in the money to burn catagory.
Thanks, Brad

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[David Ricker]

Hi Brad

Some of the other guys have made god points about getting the wings straight and I
will back that up by saying you just want to do a careful job of leveling one end of
the wing relative to the other. We used a jig that sits on the main & rear spars so
it spans them and make sure both ends of the wing show the same on the level. You
don't need to kill yourself getting the table level, just make sure the jig the
wings sit on (2, 2x4s on side are OK) holds the wing true and you can clamp the wing
to it so it does not move & lose the correct alignhment. You can shim the 2x4s if
you need to tweak the setup. For our table we did however build leveling screws
into the legs so we can account for the un-eveness of the floor.

On the wet tanks, don't let all this talk psych you out, sure it can be messy but it
isn't rocket science and it isn't really that messy with a bit of care. Just lay
newspapers and be careful what you walk in! It is however a two person job and
don't wait until the afternoon to get started. A box of nitrile gloves are your
best friend and don't be mean with the sealer, if you have to buy an extra can it is
really not that costly compared to the risk of a leak and it really doesn't weigh
that much if you use a little more than planned.

While we are on the sealer, I don't think MAM supplies it with the kit any more
because it goes out of date before you get to the tanks so you have the option to
buy the curing time formulation that suits you the best, for us it is the 2 hour
version, that is plenty. Make sure you get a batch with lots of shelf life left (9
months from manufacture) and have at it. We get ours (Flamemaster brand, to the
same MIL-SPEC) from Aviall who have outlets all over North America and keep stock in
Texas.

We mix batches of about 200 grams and use a caulking tube dispenser to apply it.
The empty tubes are about $1.25CDN each (catalog # 103FL, C. R. Laurence,
crlaurence.com) and are the type that household caulking comes in. Makes the job
really slick, no messy, stringy putty knives to handle & clean. Puts a nice bead in
the corners too. After the job, toss your clecos in a jar of acetone and wire brush
them later when you have time and use them for the next tank

Another tip, to Scotchbrite the mating surfaces, get one of those discs which fit in
a drill and has velcro hooks on it and stick a disc of purple Scotchbrite to it,
this beats the devil out of doing it by hand. Works well if you have a drill press.

There are plenty of guys who have already done this so there are lots of good posts
in the archive on the subject (search Proseal) too, so that is a good place to read
up before you start

Well, I guess I have gone on long enough about this, like the guys have said, if you
are building because you enjoy it and you have more time than money, go for the slow
build and have at it, you will have that great feeling of satisfaction when you say
you did it all yourself!

Cheers,

Dave R
Francine D.
elite583.cjb.net (almost ready to seal the second wing.......)


Nielsenbe@aol.com wrote:

Thanks for all the replies, There are two main factors that sort of scare me
into getting the fastbuild. I don't know if I can get the wings straight
enough to have a quality product and sealing the tanks. While I asking about the
wings......... what do you guys think of the landing light and wing tip strobe
options? I am going to get the 120 gal option but $1000 is no small chunk for
an option. I am not what I would consider in the money to burn catagory.
Thanks, Brad

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--
David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada




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