New at Murphy

[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Just had a look at MAM's site to see Mowat's Moose has been test flown Aug
8th. Way to go guys! (picked a funny time to do a test flight though.......
between airshow arrivals!?!?)
Also samples of their W & B etc posted on their site.
One thing to note if you follow their W&B layout for yours.......... You are
supposed to certify the data to "AC43.13.1B".... NOT "1A".
If you certify to "1A", and it gets by your local inspector, and makes it to
Jamie Alexander (MD-RA chief inspector) he will send it back to you and will
not pass onto Transport Canada, so don't lose weeks getting your flight
permit over a simply (stupid) letter. Murray C. you sound like the next guy
up so make sure you have yours right!!

Also see a possible reason for no returned emails from Brian Godden over the
last few months. They have been working on another Secret Project for
Bombardier with the Turbo V6 x 300HP that apparently debuted at Oshkosh.
Congratulations on the work and being chosen MAM!! Surprised that nobody has
mention this yet with Osh well over and everyone home by now!




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[klehman]

Yup the rotax Moose flew at Osk. It was the ONLY Murphy product that I
saw on the 3 days that I was there...

Quietest Moose that I've heard though - 6000 rpm with 3:1 reduction and
2000 prop rpm max. Thought they claimed 220 hp but maybe that was for
the normally aspirated version. A new design, liquid cooled V6 with a
neat intake to the radiator on the lower cowl. Nicosil cylinders. Not
available for two years and priced "similar to 0-540". Dual alternators
and dual electronics. Looked like an airconditioning compressor was also
mounted. Turbo version will develop 75% power up to about 18,000 asl.
With a .46 bsfc on high test gas, I don't see it competing well with the
crop of certified diesels that were also on display (but not demo flown
that I noticed). I think the future is in diesels that burn turbine fuel
rather than high test gasoline. Someone suggested the burn will be a
touch better by the time it is in production. Hmmm, maybe the .46 was at
max power...
Ken

Wayne G. O'Shea wrote:

snip
Also see a possible reason for no returned emails from Brian Godden over the
last few months. They have been working on another Secret Project for
Bombardier with the Turbo V6 x 300HP that apparently debuted at Oshkosh.
Congratulations on the work and being chosen MAM!! Surprised that nobody has
mention this yet with Osh well over and everyone home by now!

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Ken !

You're right - the 220 hp version (V200) - is normally aspirated,
and the V300T turbo engine is rated at 300 hp. Because it's a full
FADEC system, you can run car gas as well as avgas, and even
mix them !! The computer will automatically compensate ...

This will be handy when 100 LL disappears !! :-(
And it will help ease the operating costs - apparently, burns in
the 11 gph range have been common during testing (a bit less
than the 18 or so for the big radial ! ;-) )

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On August 12, 2003 08:33 pm, you wrote:

Yup the rotax Moose flew at Osk.

---------------- snip ! ----------------------



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Ken !

The spec sheet says bsfc is .412 lb/hphr at 75% for the
turbo, and .420 for the standard injection. The engine is fully
certified to JAR-E/FAR-33 - which, unfortunately for homebuilders,
means a LOT of money was spent on development testing,
which will likely show in the price. Installed weight is about
460 lb., including alternators & a/c compressor. Bombardier
plan to supply complete firewall-forward packages, including
mounts. The radiator and oil cooler setups were impressive !

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On August 12, 2003 08:33 pm, you wrote:

Yup the rotax Moose flew at Osk.

---------------- snip ! ----------------------



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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Ken !

Murphy has been working for a long time on this project,
labouring under a Non-Disclosure Agreement and high secrecy,
not to mention an enormous amount of overtime !! All this was
required to get the Moose completed and FLYING in time for
the Oshkosh presentation. The Moose was hidden away in
a separate hangar after every flight !

Now that the big introduction is over, look for a lot more
joint marketing promotion, and better support from everyone
at the factory, once they've had a chance to rest up a bit !!

.....bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On August 12, 2003 08:33 pm, you wrote:

Yup the rotax Moose flew at Osk.

---------------- snip ! ----------------------



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[Bob Patterson]

Sorry for the multiple page answer - trying to use a new ISP
(Sympatico), and they seem to have a low size limit on messages !!! :-(

.......bobp

Will go back to istar ..... (sigh)

----------------------------orig.-------------------
On August 12, 2003 08:33 pm, you wrote:

Yup the rotax Moose flew at Osk. It was the ONLY Murphy product that I
saw on the 3 days that I was there...

Quietest Moose that I've heard though - 6000 rpm with 3:1 reduction and

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[klehman]

I guess the full power bsfc number was what stuck in my head. These
cruise burns have to be a bit better than a leaned out Lycoming with
electronic ignition.

I'm curious about the fuel though. I thought the compression ratio was
10.6 for the NA version. If that is correct (and maybe it's not), I
don't believe that sucker is going to perform acceptably on regular
grade auto gas despite all the electronics in the world. I guess I
pretty much dismiss out of hand any engine that requires premium mogas.
I haven't seen premium mogas at an airport or marina yet and wouldn't
want to make a $50,000 bet that it will become available!

FADEC itself does not imply any change in physics of course. Common
automotive knock sensing technology (a microphone bolted to the block)
mostly retards ignition AFTER damaging knock starts occurring from too
low octane fuel. Operation at the bleeding edge so to speak. OK for an
auto engine that rarely runs full throttle but I'd not care to rely on
that for an aero engine. Ion knock sensing technology can predict the
onset of knock in real time and would allow safe operation on low test
fuel but max power would be reduced of course. I didn't hear any mention
of ion sensing from rotax though???

Despite the similarity of my Subaru to the rotax, can you tell that I'm
really a jet fueled, no high voltage ignition, no dual electronic, KISS
diesel kind of guy ;) ?

Ken


Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !

You're right - the 220 hp version (V200) - is normally aspirated,
and the V300T turbo engine is rated at 300 hp. Because it's a full
FADEC system, you can run car gas as well as avgas, and even
mix them !! The computer will automatically compensate ...

This will be handy when 100 LL disappears !! :-(
And it will help ease the operating costs - apparently, burns in
the 11 gph range have been common during testing (a bit less
than the 18 or so for the big radial ! ;-) )

.....bobp

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[Bob Patterson]

Hi Ken !

I think the specs called for 91 octane mogas ... but the
Europeans have a funny calculation for RON octane ...

Anyway, it definitely needs the good stuff - and, although they
talk about mixing mogas & 100 LL, I have heard that this is not
a good idea. Apparently, high-test gas is becoming more common
at marinas now because of all the high-powered watercraft -
Bombardier Sea-Do's !! ;-) :-)

Don't know what kind of knock sensor they're using, but
they do have one... (maybe whatever you'd find on a Honda ??) ;-)
Not sure I'd like a FADEC controlling my prop, as well as mixture
& timing - sure limits options in a pinch !

I think your Subaru will not be working quite as hard.
Not sure about the availability of jet fuel at marinas either,
so it's good that you'll be running mogas ! ;-) :-)

Diesels sound promissing, but it could be a few years
before we see enough of them to find out the day-to-day problems
one might encounter - need for good starters & batteries comes
to mind .... :-) And what will that high compression do
to props, given the Warp Drive experience ?? Maybe turbines
(ATP) would be simpler ??? ;-) :-)

For right now, you've made a good choice - so ....
"just get it flying !! It'll never be finished" - and you can always
change engines later ! ;-) :-)

.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 10:32 AM 8/13/03 -0400, you wrote:

I guess the full power bsfc number was what stuck in my head. These
cruise burns have to be a bit better than a leaned out Lycoming with
electronic ignition.

I'm curious about the fuel though. I thought the compression ratio was
10.6 for the NA version. If that is correct (and maybe it's not), I
don't believe that sucker is going to perform acceptably on regular
grade auto gas despite all the electronics in the world. I guess I
pretty much dismiss out of hand any engine that requires premium mogas.
I haven't seen premium mogas at an airport or marina yet and wouldn't
want to make a $50,000 bet that it will become available!

FADEC itself does not imply any change in physics of course. Common
automotive knock sensing technology (a microphone bolted to the block)
mostly retards ignition AFTER damaging knock starts occurring from too
low octane fuel. Operation at the bleeding edge so to speak. OK for an
auto engine that rarely runs full throttle but I'd not care to rely on
that for an aero engine. Ion knock sensing technology can predict the
onset of knock in real time and would allow safe operation on low test
fuel but max power would be reduced of course. I didn't hear any mention
of ion sensing from rotax though???

Despite the similarity of my Subaru to the rotax, can you tell that I'm
really a jet fueled, no high voltage ignition, no dual electronic, KISS
diesel kind of guy ;) ?

Ken


Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !

You're right - the 220 hp version (V200) - is normally aspirated,
and the V300T turbo engine is rated at 300 hp. Because it's a full
FADEC system, you can run car gas as well as avgas, and even
mix them !! The computer will automatically compensate ...

This will be handy when 100 LL disappears !! :-(
And it will help ease the operating costs - apparently, burns in
the 11 gph range have been common during testing (a bit less
than the 18 or so for the big radial ! ;-) )

.....bobp

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[klehman]

Touche! I haven't seen jet fuel at a Marina either :).
LOL

Have fun on the Ramble Eastward!

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !
snip
Not sure about the availability of jet fuel at marinas either,
snip

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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

No, but I've been to >LOTS< that have Diesel !!!
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: New at Murphy

Touche! I haven't seen jet fuel at a Marina either :).
LOL

Have fun on the Ramble Eastward!

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !
snip
Not sure about the availability of jet fuel at marinas either,
snip

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[Brian Cross]

Hi There

I did see this airplane the first day that it arrived at Oshkosh. It was a
very pretty Moose. The nicest one that I have seen to date.

The installation of this engine was first rate. They had really taken
their time on this. Obviously, they were displaying it with the cowl
off. This was also the only full sized MAM aircraft at the show. Murphy
had a display in the ultra light area. I talked at length with the man in
charge of the Bombardier aircraft engine group. He was a European & spoke
at length re: their commitment to the aviation market. The weight was good
and fuel consumption was good. He spoke of Bombardier having 'deep
pockets' i.e. they spent the time (Well over twice their normal development
time for an engine) and the necessary bucks to get it right. They will be
on the market soon...even sooner than Zoche :). It also had a muffler (I
am pretty sure) in order to meet European standards. I also saw Dean at
this booth & he was also pretty excited.

BTW, I only saw 1 other Rebel beside C-FRBL at the show. We need more
flying Rebels to show people what a good solid aircraft this machine is.

Cheers

Brian #328R


At 05:31 PM 8/12/2003 -0400, you wrote:

Just had a look at MAM's site to see Mowat's Moose has been test flown Aug
8th. Way to go guys! (picked a funny time to do a test flight though.......
between airshow arrivals!?!?)
Also samples of their W & B etc posted on their site.
One thing to note if you follow their W&B layout for yours.......... You are
supposed to certify the data to "AC43.13.1B".... NOT "1A".
If you certify to "1A", and it gets by your local inspector, and makes it to
Jamie Alexander (MD-RA chief inspector) he will send it back to you and will
not pass onto Transport Canada, so don't lose weeks getting your flight
permit over a simply (stupid) letter. Murray C. you sound like the next guy
up so make sure you have yours right!!

Also see a possible reason for no returned emails from Brian Godden over the
last few months. They have been working on another Secret Project for
Bombardier with the Turbo V6 x 300HP that apparently debuted at Oshkosh.
Congratulations on the work and being chosen MAM!! Surprised that nobody has
mention this yet with Osh well over and everyone home by now!




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[Nielsenbe]

why 300HP? It seems they would go for higher HP. There seems to be alot of
engines around 300 but alot fewer at 350-400. Is it because they are offering a
certified replacement for the 540-550 class engine? Seems to be lacking on the
moose though.

Brad



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[dmp]

On 13 Aug 2003 at 10:32, klehman@albedo.net wrote:

FADEC itself does not imply any change in physics of course. Common
automotive knock sensing technology (a microphone bolted to the block)
mostly retards ignition AFTER damaging knock starts occurring from too
low octane fuel. Operation at the bleeding edge so to speak. OK for an

Actually, from what I've read, a engine can have mild detonation all
day long and not produce any signifcant engine damage. I would
guess at levels above where the knock sensors can hear it.

---
David Parrish



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[larry173]

Exactly we need a 350 to 400 hp At this point LS1, Ls^ is our only good
option. Rumers are of a V8 400hp Bombi but in about 5 years.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: New at Murphy

why 300HP? It seems they would go for higher HP. There seems to be alot of
engines around 300 but alot fewer at 350-400. Is it because they are

offering a

certified replacement for the 540-550 class engine? Seems to be lacking on

the

moose though.

Brad

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[larry173]

Now all we need is a 350 to 400 hp diesel for the Moose. Know of any?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: New at Murphy

No, but I've been to >LOTS< that have Diesel !!!
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: <klehman@albedo.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: New at Murphy

Touche! I haven't seen jet fuel at a Marina either :).
LOL

Have fun on the Ramble Eastward!

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Hi Ken !
snip
Not sure about the availability of jet fuel at marinas either,
snip

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