The Murphy Builders Site

Just got back again from a weekend at the lake. Good
news is that my radio works fine now, so looks like
relocating that noise filter back to the alternator
fixed it. It was loud and clear from 10 miles out, so
that's good now.

And my exhaust pipe is all welded and fixed up again.

However, my engine cutting out at full power happened
again today. It was fine on Saturday, but I had full
tanks then, too. Today, it first did it again with 23
gallons onboard, and on a long climb. This time it
didn't happen until 5000 feet, so it had nothing to do
with air in the lines. There was no rough water
take-off or turbulence. It suddenly just started to
stutter and miss again. Pulled back the throttle, and
it again fired back up, just like the last time. This
time I also primed it a few times, and when I gave it
full power it ran fine. However, my passenger was a
little spooked so I had to go back to my cottage. I
later went up again myself, and it happened a couple
more times. Each time, I was able to clear it by
working the throttle and primer a few times, but it
would happen again after climbing a 1000 feet or so.
Then on my way home, it began to stutter a bit even
during a straight cruise a couple of times, but I was
always able to clear it, and then it would run fine
again for a while.

So there is definitely something wrong here, and it
seems to be getting more frequent. I don't think now it
has anything to do with air in the lines. However, it
does seem fuel related.

When I got home, I took the gascolator off, but it was
clean as could be. I removed the carb, and am going to
check the float bowls and valve. I am wondering if
there might be something wrong there. I haven't checked
my primer yet either. But if there was any kind of leak
or crack I would have expected to see gas dripping
somewhere but again, nothing wrong that I can see.

One thing I did notice when I was priming it in flight
is that when it got too much fuel, it would also cause
a similar stuttering. So my problem could also be too
much fuel if my carb float is malfunctioning.

So if anybody has any more ideas, I'm listening. I will
let you know what I find. I only have a few days to get
this thing fixed now, or I won't be able to go on my
trip.

Walter



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Thanks, Wayne. The primer was on my list to check. I
never thought that it would actually suck in fuel to
the cylinders through the primer, but now that you
mention it, that does make some sense. I did notice
that when I primed it in flight, it seemed to cause the
same result. Maybe the gasket or O ring has been eaten
up by my use of mogas.

I don't have a vacum pump that you describe, but should
be able to find a way to check it. At worst, I may just
close off all the primer ports on the engine and
gascolator and try again.

Bruce, re your last post, yes, I checked a finger
strainer on one side last week and removed the water
drain, and everything was clean as could be. No water
anywhere either. And no, I will not be going on any
trips or long flights until I get to the bottom of
this. At least now, it is more consistent and frequent,
so I should have a better chance of solving it now.

Grant, I just saw your message, too, and I was thinking
that a boost pump may be necessary if I was indeed
getting air in the line or vapour lock. But for now, I
a still have a few more things to check.

Thanks, all, for the tips and suggestions. Sure beats
scratching your head.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 8:25 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: The Saga Continues


I should add to that that I >DID< have the
carb overhauled before the
aircraft was shipped to Maui!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: The Saga Continues

With that description I'm wondering if you

have a primer that is not
seating

when in the locked postion and on high

power settings it's sucking fuel

through the primer outlets to the

cylinders and is flooding them out by

giving fuel injection + the updraft

carb!!. Could remove the line to the

first tee in your primer set up and put a

vacuum pump (hand style for

bleeding brakes) on the outlet line and

see if you can suck fuel through
the

primer.

Don't think it's your float as I had this

problem on the Rebel I shipped
to

Maui. It would pick up 100's of RPM by

leaning out on the ground to cut
down

on the flooding but ran fine in the air

and never skipped a beat. Possibly

maybe a worn out plunger seal on the carb.

(you know that linkage and

plunger on the left side), but I'd check

that primer out first. They can

really make your heart beat on the

downwind if it's even ever so slightly

unseated and not sealing. I've had mine

wake me up before while it looked

locked it wasn't with the tab sitting

right in the notch, with the plunger

out only about 3/32" at the most.

Happy hunting!
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 10:28 PM
Subject: The Saga Continues

Just got back again from a weekend at

the lake. Good

news is that my radio works fine now, so

looks like

relocating that noise filter back to the

alternator

fixed it. It was loud and clear from 10

miles out, so

that's good now.

And my exhaust pipe is all welded and

fixed up again.

However, my engine cutting out at full

power happened

again today. It was fine on Saturday,

but I had full

tanks then, too. Today, it first did it

again with 23

gallons onboard, and on a long climb.

This time it

didn't happen until 5000 feet, so it had

nothing to do

with air in the lines. There was no rough water
take-off or turbulence. It suddenly just

started to

stutter and miss again. Pulled back the

throttle, and

it again fired back up, just like the

last time. This

time I also primed it a few times, and

when I gave it

full power it ran fine. However, my

passenger was a

little spooked so I had to go back to my

cottage. I

later went up again myself, and it

happened a couple

more times. Each time, I was able to clear it by
working the throttle and primer a few

times, but it

would happen again after climbing a 1000

feet or so.

Then on my way home, it began to stutter

a bit even

during a straight cruise a couple of

times, but I was

always able to clear it, and then it

would run fine

again for a while.

So there is definitely something wrong

here, and it

seems to be getting more frequent. I

don't think now it

has anything to do with air in the

lines. However, it

does seem fuel related.

When I got home, I took the gascolator

off, but it was

clean as could be. I removed the carb,

and am going to

check the float bowls and valve. I am

wondering if

there might be something wrong there. I

haven't checked

my primer yet either. But if there was

any kind of leak

or crack I would have expected to see

gas dripping

somewhere but again, nothing wrong that

I can see.

One thing I did notice when I was

priming it in flight

is that when it got too much fuel, it

would also cause

a similar stuttering. So my problem

could also be too

much fuel if my carb float is malfunctioning.

So if anybody has any more ideas, I'm

listening. I will

let you know what I find. I only have a

few days to get

this thing fixed now, or I won't be able

to go on my

trip.

Walter

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With that description I'm wondering if you have a primer that is not seating
when in the locked postion and on high power settings it's sucking fuel
through the primer outlets to the cylinders and is flooding them out by
giving fuel injection + the updraft carb!!. Could remove the line to the
first tee in your primer set up and put a vacuum pump (hand style for
bleeding brakes) on the outlet line and see if you can suck fuel through the
primer.

Don't think it's your float as I had this problem on the Rebel I shipped to
Maui. It would pick up 100's of RPM by leaning out on the ground to cut down
on the flooding but ran fine in the air and never skipped a beat. Possibly
maybe a worn out plunger seal on the carb. (you know that linkage and
plunger on the left side), but I'd check that primer out first. They can
really make your heart beat on the downwind if it's even ever so slightly
unseated and not sealing. I've had mine wake me up before while it looked
locked it wasn't with the tab sitting right in the notch, with the plunger
out only about 3/32" at the most.

Happy hunting!
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 10:28 PM
Subject: The Saga Continues

Just got back again from a weekend at the lake. Good
news is that my radio works fine now, so looks like
relocating that noise filter back to the alternator
fixed it. It was loud and clear from 10 miles out, so
that's good now.

And my exhaust pipe is all welded and fixed up again.

However, my engine cutting out at full power happened
again today. It was fine on Saturday, but I had full
tanks then, too. Today, it first did it again with 23
gallons onboard, and on a long climb. This time it
didn't happen until 5000 feet, so it had nothing to do
with air in the lines. There was no rough water
take-off or turbulence. It suddenly just started to
stutter and miss again. Pulled back the throttle, and
it again fired back up, just like the last time. This
time I also primed it a few times, and when I gave it
full power it ran fine. However, my passenger was a
little spooked so I had to go back to my cottage. I
later went up again myself, and it happened a couple
more times. Each time, I was able to clear it by
working the throttle and primer a few times, but it
would happen again after climbing a 1000 feet or so.
Then on my way home, it began to stutter a bit even
during a straight cruise a couple of times, but I was
always able to clear it, and then it would run fine
again for a while.

So there is definitely something wrong here, and it
seems to be getting more frequent. I don't think now it
has anything to do with air in the lines. However, it
does seem fuel related.

When I got home, I took the gascolator off, but it was
clean as could be. I removed the carb, and am going to
check the float bowls and valve. I am wondering if
there might be something wrong there. I haven't checked
my primer yet either. But if there was any kind of leak
or crack I would have expected to see gas dripping
somewhere but again, nothing wrong that I can see.

One thing I did notice when I was priming it in flight
is that when it got too much fuel, it would also cause
a similar stuttering. So my problem could also be too
much fuel if my carb float is malfunctioning.

So if anybody has any more ideas, I'm listening. I will
let you know what I find. I only have a few days to get
this thing fixed now, or I won't be able to go on my
trip.

Walter

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I should add to that that I >DID< have the carb overhauled before the
aircraft was shipped to Maui!!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: The Saga Continues

With that description I'm wondering if you have a primer that is not

seating

when in the locked postion and on high power settings it's sucking fuel
through the primer outlets to the cylinders and is flooding them out by
giving fuel injection + the updraft carb!!. Could remove the line to the
first tee in your primer set up and put a vacuum pump (hand style for
bleeding brakes) on the outlet line and see if you can suck fuel through

the

primer.

Don't think it's your float as I had this problem on the Rebel I shipped

to

Maui. It would pick up 100's of RPM by leaning out on the ground to cut

down

on the flooding but ran fine in the air and never skipped a beat. Possibly
maybe a worn out plunger seal on the carb. (you know that linkage and
plunger on the left side), but I'd check that primer out first. They can
really make your heart beat on the downwind if it's even ever so slightly
unseated and not sealing. I've had mine wake me up before while it looked
locked it wasn't with the tab sitting right in the notch, with the plunger
out only about 3/32" at the most.

Happy hunting!
Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 10:28 PM
Subject: The Saga Continues

Just got back again from a weekend at the lake. Good
news is that my radio works fine now, so looks like
relocating that noise filter back to the alternator
fixed it. It was loud and clear from 10 miles out, so
that's good now.

And my exhaust pipe is all welded and fixed up again.

However, my engine cutting out at full power happened
again today. It was fine on Saturday, but I had full
tanks then, too. Today, it first did it again with 23
gallons onboard, and on a long climb. This time it
didn't happen until 5000 feet, so it had nothing to do
with air in the lines. There was no rough water
take-off or turbulence. It suddenly just started to
stutter and miss again. Pulled back the throttle, and
it again fired back up, just like the last time. This
time I also primed it a few times, and when I gave it
full power it ran fine. However, my passenger was a
little spooked so I had to go back to my cottage. I
later went up again myself, and it happened a couple
more times. Each time, I was able to clear it by
working the throttle and primer a few times, but it
would happen again after climbing a 1000 feet or so.
Then on my way home, it began to stutter a bit even
during a straight cruise a couple of times, but I was
always able to clear it, and then it would run fine
again for a while.

So there is definitely something wrong here, and it
seems to be getting more frequent. I don't think now it
has anything to do with air in the lines. However, it
does seem fuel related.

When I got home, I took the gascolator off, but it was
clean as could be. I removed the carb, and am going to
check the float bowls and valve. I am wondering if
there might be something wrong there. I haven't checked
my primer yet either. But if there was any kind of leak
or crack I would have expected to see gas dripping
somewhere but again, nothing wrong that I can see.

One thing I did notice when I was priming it in flight
is that when it got too much fuel, it would also cause
a similar stuttering. So my problem could also be too
much fuel if my carb float is malfunctioning.

So if anybody has any more ideas, I'm listening. I will
let you know what I find. I only have a few days to get
this thing fixed now, or I won't be able to go on my
trip.

Walter

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Walter,

Sorry to hear your still having problems. Have you checked your finger
strainers in the tanks? Have another fuel filter in line somewhere? Maybe water
trapped in the tanks.???

Good call to cancel your trip until you discover the problem. Better safe
than sorry.

Bruce



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Walter Hello
Go down to the nearest RV dealer and by a small 12 volt faucet pump and
install it after the fuel tank tee in/just before the gascolator. Do the same
climb and cruise routine you have been encountering trouble with. I think you will
find the problem solved. Before flight after installing the pump turn it on
and check to see that your float can hold back the pressure if it can't the
carb will leak with in seconds of turning on the pump on the ground. The faucet
pumps will allow gravity feed when they are turned off in cruise. If you have
an over pressure situation all the Volkswagen shops sell adjustable fuel
pressure regulators for the dune buggy crowd. The engines will stall in high g turns
without an adjustable reg. I found this out the hard way in one of my
airboats until a Volkswagen enthusiast explained to me what was going on.
If nothing else it will point to the source of your fuel problems. It is one
of two things from the sound of it. Fuel supply, or over temp on the fuel
system. The pump will keep the fuel liquid for a good 30 to 60 degrees higher
temp.
Grant.



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Sorry to interrupt here. If testing the Facet pumps, make sure you get the
right one! I have pointed to a document that describes two Facet pumps that
have very different flow through characteristics, forward and backward..
careful here!

I fly with two of these in parallel, they are great pumps if they are the
right ones, plumbed the right way.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~farndt2/Files/facet.doc

Frank


On 7/7/2003 4:02 AM, BCAIRBOAT@AOL.COM wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v5.6.450.7)
-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:02:56 -0800
-> Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com ([205.188.157.34]) EHLO=imo-d02.mx.aol.com
-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v5.6.450.7) with SMTP
-> id 585882406; Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:02:55 -0800
-> Received: from BCairboat@aol.com
-> by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v36_r1.1.) id b.74.3006d557 (4592)
-> for <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>; Mon, 7 Jul 2003 00:02:47 -0400 (EDT)
-> From: BCairboat@aol.com
-> Message-ID: <74.3006d557.2c3a4ae6@aol.com>
-> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 00:02:46 EDT
-> Subject: Re: The Saga Continues
-> To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
-> X-Orig-MIME-Version: 1.0
-> X-Orig-Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="part1_74.3006d557.2c3a4ae6_boundary"
-> X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 12003
->
-> Walter Hello
-> Go down to the nearest RV dealer and by a small 12 volt faucet pump and
-> install it after the fuel tank tee in/just before the gascolator. Do the
same
-> climb and cruise routine you have been encountering trouble with. I think
you will
-> find the problem solved. Before flight after installing the pump turn it on
-> and check to see that your float can hold back the pressure if it can't the
-> carb will leak with in seconds of turning on the pump on the ground. The
faucet
-> pumps will allow gravity feed when they are turned off in cruise. If you
have
-> an over pressure situation all the Volkswagen shops sell adjustable fuel
-> pressure regulators for the dune buggy crowd. The engines will stall in
high g turns
-> without an adjustable reg. I found this out the hard way in one of my
-> airboats until a Volkswagen enthusiast explained to me what was going on.
-> If nothing else it will point to the source of your fuel problems. It is
one
-> of two things from the sound of it. Fuel supply, or over temp on the fuel
-> system. The pump will keep the fuel liquid for a good 30 to 60 degrees
higher
-> temp.
-> Grant.
->




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I have the 2 front cylinders primed. I hear what you're
saying on higher vacuum at lower power. However, the
problem definitely happened at full power setting, and
the engine would recover when I backed off power. I do
know these engines run richer at full power, so maybe
the extra fuel from the primer puts it over the edge
more quickly then, or they are more tolerant of the
mixture at partial power. Also, when I did apply
primer, it did cause the engine to stutter the same way
as the problem. Having said, that I also did encounter
the occasional slight stutter at cruise power
yesterday, too, for the first time. I don't know, Ken.
I've been doing a lot of theorizing, and not always
right. However, I figure they are all worth considering
or checking out.

Regarding the ignition, I did mag checks in flight
after this happened, and everything was normal. One mag
reduces power and rpm, but does not cause the engine to
stutter.

Also did the carb heat thing, but again, all normal and
as expected there.

Frank, thanks for the tip and links on the Facet pump.
If I end up going that route, I will definitely be
talking more about exactly which pump to get.

Thanks again, all, for your tips and suggestions.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman@albedo.net
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:57 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: The Saga Continues


Don't know how many cylinders are primed on
your engine but if the
primer is leaking wouldn't it to be worse at
partial throttle when the
manifold vacuum is higher and a leak will be
a larger percent mixture
change? Also I would have expected a little
leaning to improve things
if the primer was leaking. Priming and
working the throttle probably
richens things so my wild guess would be
that you might be going lean
not rich...

Also nobody mentioned carb heat. I know I've
seen ice at 25 C and I
believe mogas is worse than avgas for that.
A stretch I know but adding
a little carb heat tends to richen the
mixture IIRC. Might give you
another hint...

T'other thing is that mag problems sometimes
start with a miss at full
throttle which is when the plugs need the
most voltage to fire...
Reducing power might tend to reduce the
miss. Does your stutter ever
reduce power more than turning off one mag would?

Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:

Just got back again from a weekend at the

lake. Good

news is that my radio works fine now, so looks like
relocating that noise filter back to the alternator
fixed it. It was loud and clear from 10

miles out, so

that's good now.

And my exhaust pipe is all welded and

fixed up again.

However, my engine cutting out at full

power happened

again today. It was fine on Saturday, but

I had full

tanks then, too. Today, it first did it

again with 23

gallons onboard, and on a long climb. This time it
didn't happen until 5000 feet, so it had

nothing to do

with air in the lines. There was no rough water
take-off or turbulence. It suddenly just started to
stutter and miss again. Pulled back the

throttle, and

it again fired back up, just like the last

time. This

time I also primed it a few times, and

when I gave it

full power it ran fine. However, my passenger was a
little spooked so I had to go back to my cottage. I
later went up again myself, and it

happened a couple

more times. Each time, I was able to clear it by
working the throttle and primer a few times, but it
would happen again after climbing a 1000

feet or so.

Then on my way home, it began to stutter a bit even
during a straight cruise a couple of

times, but I was

always able to clear it, and then it would run fine
again for a while.

So there is definitely something wrong here, and it
seems to be getting more frequent. I don't

think now it

has anything to do with air in the lines.

However, it

does seem fuel related.

When I got home, I took the gascolator

off, but it was

clean as could be. I removed the carb, and

am going to

check the float bowls and valve. I am wondering if
there might be something wrong there. I

haven't checked

my primer yet either. But if there was any

kind of leak

or crack I would have expected to see gas dripping
somewhere but again, nothing wrong that I can see.

One thing I did notice when I was priming

it in flight

is that when it got too much fuel, it

would also cause

a similar stuttering. So my problem could

also be too

much fuel if my carb float is malfunctioning.

So if anybody has any more ideas, I'm

listening. I will

let you know what I find. I only have a

few days to get

this thing fixed now, or I won't be able

to go on my

trip.

Walter

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It's a Lycoming 0320 150 hp on a Rebel with 1800
amphibs. It has no fuel pumps, but the gravity feed
does run through a fuel flow sensor after the
gascolator. The two front cylinders are primed. I have
been flying this plane now for over 3 years, almost 2
years on floats. It has been on mogas most of the time,
but I do use 100LL occasionally, and almost exclusively
in the winter. I have had it in all kinds of hot
weather before with no problems. Until now, my engine
has worked fine, except for cooling problems with my
cowls.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Bill Delcambre
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 7:14 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: The Saga Continues


No doubt about it, it sounds like an
airplane; fix one thing and another
starts chewing on your butt.

I'm with the camp that says you've got a
vapor lock situation. I know
you've posted all the details, but could you
refresh an item or two? What
engine? Does it have a mechanical fuel pump
on the engine or is it strictly
gravity fed to the carb? Have you tried
filling up with pure 100LL to see
if there's a difference? I understand that
some blends of mogas have much
worse hi temp properties. Could be as
simple as having to run 100LL in the
summer or put a pump. My two cents says
that you're gonna end up plumbing a
pump, maybe even with a restricted return
circuit. This involves a bit of
work but it beats the heck out of the thing
choosing a real bad time to
select 'glider mode'. Like I said; it's an
airplane. It's not supposed to
be easy.

Bill Delcambre

Just got back again from a weekend at the

lake. Good

news is that my radio works fine now, so looks like
relocating that noise filter back to the alternator
fixed it. It was loud and clear from 10

miles out, so

that's good now.

And my exhaust pipe is all welded and

fixed up again.

However, my engine cutting out at full

power happened

again today. It was fine on Saturday, but

I had full

tanks then, too. Today, it first did it

again with 23

gallons onboard, and on a long climb. This time it
didn't happen until 5000 feet, so it had

nothing to do

with air in the lines. There was no rough water
take-off or turbulence. It suddenly just started to
stutter and miss again. Pulled back the

throttle, and

it again fired back up, just like the last

time. This

time I also primed it a few times, and

when I gave it

full power it ran fine. However, my passenger was a
little spooked so I had to go back to my cottage. I
later went up again myself, and it

happened a couple

more times. Each time, I was able to clear it by
working the throttle and primer a few times, but it
would happen again after climbing a 1000

feet or so.

Then on my way home, it began to stutter a bit even
during a straight cruise a couple of

times, but I was

always able to clear it, and then it would run fine
again for a while.

So there is definitely something wrong here, and it
seems to be getting more frequent. I don't

think now it

has anything to do with air in the lines.

However, it

does seem fuel related.

When I got home, I took the gascolator

off, but it was

clean as could be. I removed the carb, and

am going to

check the float bowls and valve. I am wondering if
there might be something wrong there. I

haven't checked

my primer yet either. But if there was any

kind of leak

or crack I would have expected to see gas dripping
somewhere but again, nothing wrong that I can see.

One thing I did notice when I was priming

it in flight

is that when it got too much fuel, it

would also cause

a similar stuttering. So my problem could

also be too

much fuel if my carb float is malfunctioning.

So if anybody has any more ideas, I'm

listening. I will

let you know what I find. I only have a

few days to get

this thing fixed now, or I won't be able

to go on my

trip.

Walter

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No doubt about it, it sounds like an airplane; fix one thing and another
starts chewing on your butt.

I'm with the camp that says you've got a vapor lock situation. I know
you've posted all the details, but could you refresh an item or two? What
engine? Does it have a mechanical fuel pump on the engine or is it strictly
gravity fed to the carb? Have you tried filling up with pure 100LL to see
if there's a difference? I understand that some blends of mogas have much
worse hi temp properties. Could be as simple as having to run 100LL in the
summer or put a pump. My two cents says that you're gonna end up plumbing a
pump, maybe even with a restricted return circuit. This involves a bit of
work but it beats the heck out of the thing choosing a real bad time to
select 'glider mode'. Like I said; it's an airplane. It's not supposed to
be easy.

Bill Delcambre

Just got back again from a weekend at the lake. Good
news is that my radio works fine now, so looks like
relocating that noise filter back to the alternator
fixed it. It was loud and clear from 10 miles out, so
that's good now.

And my exhaust pipe is all welded and fixed up again.

However, my engine cutting out at full power happened
again today. It was fine on Saturday, but I had full
tanks then, too. Today, it first did it again with 23
gallons onboard, and on a long climb. This time it
didn't happen until 5000 feet, so it had nothing to do
with air in the lines. There was no rough water
take-off or turbulence. It suddenly just started to
stutter and miss again. Pulled back the throttle, and
it again fired back up, just like the last time. This
time I also primed it a few times, and when I gave it
full power it ran fine. However, my passenger was a
little spooked so I had to go back to my cottage. I
later went up again myself, and it happened a couple
more times. Each time, I was able to clear it by
working the throttle and primer a few times, but it
would happen again after climbing a 1000 feet or so.
Then on my way home, it began to stutter a bit even
during a straight cruise a couple of times, but I was
always able to clear it, and then it would run fine
again for a while.

So there is definitely something wrong here, and it
seems to be getting more frequent. I don't think now it
has anything to do with air in the lines. However, it
does seem fuel related.

When I got home, I took the gascolator off, but it was
clean as could be. I removed the carb, and am going to
check the float bowls and valve. I am wondering if
there might be something wrong there. I haven't checked
my primer yet either. But if there was any kind of leak
or crack I would have expected to see gas dripping
somewhere but again, nothing wrong that I can see.

One thing I did notice when I was priming it in flight
is that when it got too much fuel, it would also cause
a similar stuttering. So my problem could also be too
much fuel if my carb float is malfunctioning.

So if anybody has any more ideas, I'm listening. I will
let you know what I find. I only have a few days to get
this thing fixed now, or I won't be able to go on my
trip.

Walter

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I'd run the tanks pretty low and fill her up with 100LL, just to see if it
makes a difference. Could just be that the mogas blend is intollerant of
the temps.

Bill Delcambre

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: The Saga Continues

It's a Lycoming 0320 150 hp on a Rebel with 1800
amphibs. It has no fuel pumps, but the gravity feed
does run through a fuel flow sensor after the
gascolator. The two front cylinders are primed. I have
been flying this plane now for over 3 years, almost 2
years on floats. It has been on mogas most of the time,
but I do use 100LL occasionally, and almost exclusively
in the winter. I have had it in all kinds of hot
weather before with no problems. Until now, my engine
has worked fine, except for cooling problems with my
cowls.

Walter

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Don't know how many cylinders are primed on your engine but if the
primer is leaking wouldn't it to be worse at partial throttle when the
manifold vacuum is higher and a leak will be a larger percent mixture
change? Also I would have expected a little leaning to improve things
if the primer was leaking. Priming and working the throttle probably
richens things so my wild guess would be that you might be going lean
not rich...

Also nobody mentioned carb heat. I know I've seen ice at 25 C and I
believe mogas is worse than avgas for that. A stretch I know but adding
a little carb heat tends to richen the mixture IIRC. Might give you
another hint...

T'other thing is that mag problems sometimes start with a miss at full
throttle which is when the plugs need the most voltage to fire...
Reducing power might tend to reduce the miss. Does your stutter ever
reduce power more than turning off one mag would?

Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:

Just got back again from a weekend at the lake. Good
news is that my radio works fine now, so looks like
relocating that noise filter back to the alternator
fixed it. It was loud and clear from 10 miles out, so
that's good now.

And my exhaust pipe is all welded and fixed up again.

However, my engine cutting out at full power happened
again today. It was fine on Saturday, but I had full
tanks then, too. Today, it first did it again with 23
gallons onboard, and on a long climb. This time it
didn't happen until 5000 feet, so it had nothing to do
with air in the lines. There was no rough water
take-off or turbulence. It suddenly just started to
stutter and miss again. Pulled back the throttle, and
it again fired back up, just like the last time. This
time I also primed it a few times, and when I gave it
full power it ran fine. However, my passenger was a
little spooked so I had to go back to my cottage. I
later went up again myself, and it happened a couple
more times. Each time, I was able to clear it by
working the throttle and primer a few times, but it
would happen again after climbing a 1000 feet or so.
Then on my way home, it began to stutter a bit even
during a straight cruise a couple of times, but I was
always able to clear it, and then it would run fine
again for a while.

So there is definitely something wrong here, and it
seems to be getting more frequent. I don't think now it
has anything to do with air in the lines. However, it
does seem fuel related.

When I got home, I took the gascolator off, but it was
clean as could be. I removed the carb, and am going to
check the float bowls and valve. I am wondering if
there might be something wrong there. I haven't checked
my primer yet either. But if there was any kind of leak
or crack I would have expected to see gas dripping
somewhere but again, nothing wrong that I can see.

One thing I did notice when I was priming it in flight
is that when it got too much fuel, it would also cause
a similar stuttering. So my problem could also be too
much fuel if my carb float is malfunctioning.

So if anybody has any more ideas, I'm listening. I will
let you know what I find. I only have a few days to get
this thing fixed now, or I won't be able to go on my
trip.

Walter

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Walter,
When trouble shooting I always try to start with the simplest first.
Have you considered a fuel flow check at the carb (preferably with the
carb bowl off and fuel through the float inlet) with the plane propped
up in max climb angle? That would isolate a fuel restriction and narrow
the search.
Ralph Baker


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Man that sounds like the problem my dad had on an o-200 recently. It was
running great then one day it started having the same symptoms. We went
through the induction system and the carb and couldn't find anything. We
took out the plugs and tested them in a tester that checked them under
pressure and they tested good. Kinda as a last resort we put in new plugs
and that fixed it.
Joel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 10:28 PM
Subject: The Saga Continues

However, my engine cutting out at full power happened
again today. It was fine on Saturday, but I had full
tanks then, too. Today, it first did it again with 23
gallons onboard, and on a long climb. This time it
didn't happen until 5000 feet, so it had nothing to do
with air in the lines. There was no rough water
take-off or turbulence. It suddenly just started to
stutter and miss again. Pulled back the throttle, and
it again fired back up, just like the last time. This
time I also primed it a few times, and when I gave it
full power it ran fine. However, my passenger was a
little spooked so I had to go back to my cottage. I
later went up again myself, and it happened a couple
more times. Each time, I was able to clear it by
working the throttle and primer a few times, but it
would happen again after climbing a 1000 feet or so.
Then on my way home, it began to stutter a bit even
during a straight cruise a couple of times, but I was
always able to clear it, and then it would run fine
again for a while.

So there is definitely something wrong here, and it
seems to be getting more frequent. I don't think now it
has anything to do with air in the lines. However, it
does seem fuel related.

When I got home, I took the gascolator off, but it was
clean as could be. I removed the carb, and am going to
check the float bowls and valve. I am wondering if
there might be something wrong there. I haven't checked
my primer yet either. But if there was any kind of leak
or crack I would have expected to see gas dripping
somewhere but again, nothing wrong that I can see.

One thing I did notice when I was priming it in flight
is that when it got too much fuel, it would also cause
a similar stuttering. So my problem could also be too
much fuel if my carb float is malfunctioning.

So if anybody has any more ideas, I'm listening. I will
let you know what I find. I only have a few days to get
this thing fixed now, or I won't be able to go on my
trip.

Walter

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Walter start with the easy one, since you are running rubber eating car gas,
and pull your primer assembly apart and check the O-rings, or at least
borrow a vacuum pump ($60 item at CTC) from a car mechanic and start sucking
on the outlet line to see if this is a possiblity before disassembling.
Something has changed quickly on you and I suspect your primer inards may be
kaput.

Don't see it as a mag problem when this "stutter" comes at full power.
Points getting close to being closed (from the follower wearing on the lobe)
kill the engine when you go to idle but at power the momentum is enough to
keep them opening enough to run. (That happen to me on my second test flight
in '95. Pulled to idle on final and the engine quit!) Could be a cracked
coil in a mag that acts up at altitude (does this only happen when you are
up in the mountains or has it happened downlow in the valley??)

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: The Saga Continues

I have the 2 front cylinders primed. I hear what you're
saying on higher vacuum at lower power. However, the
problem definitely happened at full power setting, and
the engine would recover when I backed off power. I do
know these engines run richer at full power, so maybe
the extra fuel from the primer puts it over the edge
more quickly then, or they are more tolerant of the
mixture at partial power. Also, when I did apply
primer, it did cause the engine to stutter the same way
as the problem. Having said, that I also did encounter
the occasional slight stutter at cruise power
yesterday, too, for the first time. I don't know, Ken.
I've been doing a lot of theorizing, and not always
right. However, I figure they are all worth considering
or checking out.

Regarding the ignition, I did mag checks in flight
after this happened, and everything was normal. One mag
reduces power and rpm, but does not cause the engine to
stutter.

Also did the carb heat thing, but again, all normal and
as expected there.

Frank, thanks for the tip and links on the Facet pump.
If I end up going that route, I will definitely be
talking more about exactly which pump to get.

Thanks again, all, for your tips and suggestions.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
klehman@albedo.net
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 5:57 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: The Saga Continues


Don't know how many cylinders are primed on
your engine but if the
primer is leaking wouldn't it to be worse at
partial throttle when the
manifold vacuum is higher and a leak will be
a larger percent mixture
change? Also I would have expected a little
leaning to improve things
if the primer was leaking. Priming and
working the throttle probably
richens things so my wild guess would be
that you might be going lean
not rich...

Also nobody mentioned carb heat. I know I've
seen ice at 25 C and I
believe mogas is worse than avgas for that.
A stretch I know but adding
a little carb heat tends to richen the
mixture IIRC. Might give you
another hint...

T'other thing is that mag problems sometimes
start with a miss at full
throttle which is when the plugs need the
most voltage to fire...
Reducing power might tend to reduce the
miss. Does your stutter ever
reduce power more than turning off one mag would?

Ken

Walter Klatt wrote:

Just got back again from a weekend at the

lake. Good

news is that my radio works fine now, so looks like
relocating that noise filter back to the alternator
fixed it. It was loud and clear from 10

miles out, so

that's good now.

And my exhaust pipe is all welded and

fixed up again.

However, my engine cutting out at full

power happened

again today. It was fine on Saturday, but

I had full

tanks then, too. Today, it first did it

again with 23

gallons onboard, and on a long climb. This time it
didn't happen until 5000 feet, so it had

nothing to do

with air in the lines. There was no rough water
take-off or turbulence. It suddenly just started to
stutter and miss again. Pulled back the

throttle, and

it again fired back up, just like the last

time. This

time I also primed it a few times, and

when I gave it

full power it ran fine. However, my passenger was a
little spooked so I had to go back to my cottage. I
later went up again myself, and it

happened a couple

more times. Each time, I was able to clear it by
working the throttle and primer a few times, but it
would happen again after climbing a 1000

feet or so.

Then on my way home, it began to stutter a bit even
during a straight cruise a couple of

times, but I was

always able to clear it, and then it would run fine
again for a while.

So there is definitely something wrong here, and it
seems to be getting more frequent. I don't

think now it

has anything to do with air in the lines.

However, it

does seem fuel related.

When I got home, I took the gascolator

off, but it was

clean as could be. I removed the carb, and

am going to

check the float bowls and valve. I am wondering if
there might be something wrong there. I

haven't checked

my primer yet either. But if there was any

kind of leak

or crack I would have expected to see gas dripping
somewhere but again, nothing wrong that I can see.

One thing I did notice when I was priming

it in flight

is that when it got too much fuel, it

would also cause

a similar stuttering. So my problem could

also be too

much fuel if my carb float is malfunctioning.

So if anybody has any more ideas, I'm

listening. I will

let you know what I find. I only have a

few days to get

this thing fixed now, or I won't be able

to go on my

trip.

Walter

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