Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Alan Hepburn · Post by **Alan Hepburn** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:12 pm

Bob Patterson:

Bob, Sean White has returned from Arizona, where the assembled an Elite
with the modified elevator I mentioned earlier. He reports that the
elevator now has good feel, and is much better harmonized with the
ailerons. I plan to go ahead with the same change. This involves
reducing the span spades by 3 11/16" at each side (i.e. the centre hole
on the spade will now be at the tip), thereby reducing the span of the
whole elevator roughly 8". Currently, I have the spades and elevator
completed but not closed, so this should be an easy mod. The radius of
the spade skins at the tips should also be increased. I plan to go from
the current 1/2" to about 3/4". The easiest way to do this will
probably be to put on a tip skin, just like the rudder. Unfortunately,
since I'm only about half way through the fuselage right now, you'll
have to take Sean's word for it on the handling qualities for quite some
time.

Regards, Al Hepburn.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ralph Baker · Post by **Ralph Baker** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Al,
It must be the continuous rain we have been having in South Carolina, but I
am not able to clearly understand your comment. Did you cut back the length
of the aerodynamic and weight balance tips of the elevator to the first
tooling hole? If that is correct how did that reduce the span of the whole
elevator by 8"? Do you mean the measurement from the spade tip leading edge
to the elevator trailing edge was reduced by 8"? Was the balance lead
increased to offset the decreased lever arm of the weights? Was the
increased gap from the new spade tip location to the spar filled? (I would
think so but had to ask) We have long ago completed our elevator but have
had some concerns about the blunt forward end of the spade.
Thanks for any comments you may have,
Ralph Baker
Elite 624E

To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Bob Patterson:

Bob, Sean White has returned from Arizona, where the assembled an Elite
with the modified elevator I mentioned earlier. He reports that the
elevator now has good feel, and is much better harmonized with the
ailerons. I plan to go ahead with the same change. This involves
reducing the span spades by 3 11/16" at each side (i.e. the centre hole
on the spade will now be at the tip), thereby reducing the span of the
whole elevator roughly 8". Currently, I have the spades and elevator
completed but not closed, so this should be an easy mod. The radius of
the spade skins at the tips should also be increased. I plan to go from
the current 1/2" to about 3/4". The easiest way to do this will
probably be to put on a tip skin, just like the rudder. Unfortunately,
since I'm only about half way through the fuselage right now, you'll
have to take Sean's word for it on the handling qualities for quite some
time.

Regards, Al Hepburn.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Alan, I'll just offer my 2 cents and wouldn't it make more sense to narrow
the tip balancer "spade" (if this is really deemed necessary) from the
inboard edge outward and then use another rib and 4" or so of aluminum to
lengthen the stab to fill the gap. This will let you keep the full length of
elevator, that you may just want to full flare a landing. According to Bob P
the Elite needs ALL the elevator it comes with!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Bob Patterson:

Bob, Sean White has returned from Arizona, where the assembled an Elite
with the modified elevator I mentioned earlier. He reports that the
elevator now has good feel, and is much better harmonized with the
ailerons. I plan to go ahead with the same change. This involves
reducing the span spades by 3 11/16" at each side (i.e. the centre hole
on the spade will now be at the tip), thereby reducing the span of the
whole elevator roughly 8". Currently, I have the spades and elevator
completed but not closed, so this should be an easy mod. The radius of
the spade skins at the tips should also be increased. I plan to go from
the current 1/2" to about 3/4". The easiest way to do this will
probably be to put on a tip skin, just like the rudder. Unfortunately,
since I'm only about half way through the fuselage right now, you'll
have to take Sean's word for it on the handling qualities for quite some
time.

Regards, Al Hepburn.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Legeorgen · Post by **Legeorgen** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Hi Greg,

If it was my Elite I would build it as the MAM manual instructs and not make
modifications to the design. But I'm not an aeronautical engineer and I don't
want to be a real test pilot either.

Rarely, and I mean rarely, have I ever seen a modification, that was not
factory supported, improve what is already designed by a reputable company. Except
in the mind of the guy who thought he was going to improve the design. Just
my 2 cents.

Oh yea, Wayne, you might be an exemption to that rule :-))

Bruce

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Jeffrey Steenson · Post by **Jeffrey Steenson** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Dear Al,

I spent a couple hours with the factory demo on floats, and I did not notice
any problems. Approaches seemed stable and it flew hands off. I built my
elevator per the manual.

Jeffrey

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

My advice would be to hold off on the spades until we get this one sorted
out. Go on and do the fin/rudder. And when you fit the spade on that

one,

do it with the rudder hinged to the fin, so you get a nice even gap from
hinge to tip. Sean also recommends rounding the tip on the rudder spade a
little more than provided for with the kit parts. It seems it has a
tendency not to self centre too accurately. Anyone who's flown one,

please

comment.

The elevator control over sensitivity (also described as lack of feel)

seems

to be an acknowledged problem. (At least Bob P. confirms it). It's just
the fix that is the subject of some debate. Personally, I have never

flown

either the Elite or Rebel, so all this is info. I've gathered and am

passing

on.

Al.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Wayne G. O'Shea · Post by **Wayne G. O'Shea** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

I've done lots that are only "better in my mind" as well Bruce!!

----- Original Message -----
From: <Legeorgen@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Hi Greg,

If it was my Elite I would build it as the MAM manual instructs and not

make

modifications to the design. But I'm not an aeronautical engineer and I

don't

want to be a real test pilot either.

Rarely, and I mean rarely, have I ever seen a modification, that was not
factory supported, improve what is already designed by a reputable

company. Except

in the mind of the guy who thought he was going to improve the design.

Just

my 2 cents.

Oh yea, Wayne, you might be an exemption to that rule :-))

Bruce

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Alan Hepburn · Post by **Alan Hepburn** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

I'll discuss that with Sean next time I talk with him. I'm just passing on
his info. Certainly, his fix is simpler, and they appear to have test flown
the airplane quite extensively. My own thought to retain the total
stab/elevator area was to cut the spade cordwise, and double up on the
balance weight.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Alan, I'll just offer my 2 cents and wouldn't it make more sense to narrow
the tip balancer "spade" (if this is really deemed necessary) from the
inboard edge outward and then use another rib and 4" or so of aluminum to
lengthen the stab to fill the gap. This will let you keep the full length

of

elevator, that you may just want to full flare a landing. According to Bob

P

the Elite needs ALL the elevator it comes with!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Bob Patterson:

Bob, Sean White has returned from Arizona, where the assembled an Elite
with the modified elevator I mentioned earlier. He reports that the
elevator now has good feel, and is much better harmonized with the
ailerons. I plan to go ahead with the same change. This involves
reducing the span spades by 3 11/16" at each side (i.e. the centre hole
on the spade will now be at the tip), thereby reducing the span of the
whole elevator roughly 8". Currently, I have the spades and elevator
completed but not closed, so this should be an easy mod. The radius of
the spade skins at the tips should also be increased. I plan to go from
the current 1/2" to about 3/4". The easiest way to do this will
probably be to put on a tip skin, just like the rudder. Unfortunately,
since I'm only about half way through the fuselage right now, you'll
have to take Sean's word for it on the handling qualities for quite some
time.

Regards, Al Hepburn.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Alan Hepburn · Post by **Alan Hepburn** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

My advice would be to hold off on the spades until we get this one sorted
out. Go on and do the fin/rudder. And when you fit the spade on that one,
do it with the rudder hinged to the fin, so you get a nice even gap from
hinge to tip. Sean also recommends rounding the tip on the rudder spade a
little more than provided for with the kit parts. It seems it has a
tendency not to self centre too accurately. Anyone who's flown one, please
comment.

The elevator control over sensitivity (also described as lack of feel) seems
to be an acknowledged problem. (At least Bob P. confirms it). It's just
the fix that is the subject of some debate. Personally, I have never flown
either the Elite or Rebel, so all this is info. I've gathered and am passing
on.

Al.
----- Original Message -----
From: <cosglo@ozemail.com.au>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Dear Al., Ralph, Bob & Wayne,
I am in a quandary!!!. I am currently working on the elevator spades;

just today drilled the pilot holes for the right hand spades. Do I stick
with MAN or do I start making changes??? How many Elites are flying as per
MAN?? Problems????. As an aside, the manual instructions are fairly
inconcise, pertaining to this area of construction; the outboard lead
weight provided, has to be cut in half, so as to provide a section for each
side. Do these halved sections need to be trimmed such that their respective
weights are the same??

When I have time, I think that this area of the manual may need to be

written for those who like me, who are fairly ignorant as per engineering
detail. Apart from that, I am really enjoying the building experience.!!

In my previous life, when God gave out brains to those lined up in the

queue for aircraft building, I must have taken a dunny break.!!! Thank God
for Rick Harper, my technical counsellor.

Kind regards,
Greg. Gordon.
Elite. 724.

This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Alan Hepburn · Post by **Alan Hepburn** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Ralph:

Nope, the other dimension - the span-wise dimension is cut from ~8" to 4".
Weights remain the same. Has yours flown yet? If so, can you comment on
this alleged lack of elevator feel? Maybe it's all a storm in a teacup.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@ftc-i.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Al,
It must be the continuous rain we have been having in South Carolina, but

I

am not able to clearly understand your comment. Did you cut back the

length

of the aerodynamic and weight balance tips of the elevator to the first
tooling hole? If that is correct how did that reduce the span of the

whole

elevator by 8"? Do you mean the measurement from the spade tip leading

edge

to the elevator trailing edge was reduced by 8"? Was the balance lead
increased to offset the decreased lever arm of the weights? Was the
increased gap from the new spade tip location to the spar filled? (I

would

think so but had to ask) We have long ago completed our elevator but have
had some concerns about the blunt forward end of the spade.
Thanks for any comments you may have,
Ralph Baker
Elite 624E

To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Bob Patterson:

Bob, Sean White has returned from Arizona, where the assembled an Elite
with the modified elevator I mentioned earlier. He reports that the
elevator now has good feel, and is much better harmonized with the
ailerons. I plan to go ahead with the same change. This involves
reducing the span spades by 3 11/16" at each side (i.e. the centre hole
on the spade will now be at the tip), thereby reducing the span of the
whole elevator roughly 8". Currently, I have the spades and elevator
completed but not closed, so this should be an easy mod. The radius of
the spade skins at the tips should also be increased. I plan to go from
the current 1/2" to about 3/4". The easiest way to do this will
probably be to put on a tip skin, just like the rudder. Unfortunately,
since I'm only about half way through the fuselage right now, you'll
have to take Sean's word for it on the handling qualities for quite some
time.

Regards, Al Hepburn.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Ralph Baker · Post by **Ralph Baker** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Dear Al,
I wish we were flying! Still have a ways to go. Right now it's wiring and
plumbing.
Regards,
Ralph

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Ralph:

Nope, the other dimension - the span-wise dimension is cut from ~8" to 4".
Weights remain the same. Has yours flown yet? If so, can you comment on
this alleged lack of elevator feel? Maybe it's all a storm in a teacup.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Baker" <rebaker@ftc-i.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Al,
It must be the continuous rain we have been having in South Carolina,

but

I
am not able to clearly understand your comment. Did you cut back the
length
of the aerodynamic and weight balance tips of the elevator to the first
tooling hole? If that is correct how did that reduce the span of the
whole
elevator by 8"? Do you mean the measurement from the spade tip leading
edge
to the elevator trailing edge was reduced by 8"? Was the balance lead
increased to offset the decreased lever arm of the weights? Was the
increased gap from the new spade tip location to the spar filled? (I
would
think so but had to ask) We have long ago completed our elevator but

have

had some concerns about the blunt forward end of the spade.
Thanks for any comments you may have,
Ralph Baker
Elite 624E

To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Bob Patterson:

Bob, Sean White has returned from Arizona, where the assembled an

Elite

with the modified elevator I mentioned earlier. He reports that the
elevator now has good feel, and is much better harmonized with the
ailerons. I plan to go ahead with the same change. This involves
reducing the span spades by 3 11/16" at each side (i.e. the centre

hole

on the spade will now be at the tip), thereby reducing the span of the
whole elevator roughly 8". Currently, I have the spades and elevator
completed but not closed, so this should be an easy mod. The radius

of

the spade skins at the tips should also be increased. I plan to go

from

the current 1/2" to about 3/4". The easiest way to do this will
probably be to put on a tip skin, just like the rudder.

Unfortunately,

since I'm only about half way through the fuselage right now, you'll
have to take Sean's word for it on the handling qualities for quite

some

time.

Regards, Al Hepburn.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

cosglo · Post by **cosglo** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Dear Al., Ralph, Bob & Wayne,
I am in a quandary!!!. I am currently working on the elevator spades; just today drilled the pilot holes for the right hand spades. Do I stick with MAN or do I start making changes??? How many Elites are flying as per MAN?? Problems????. As an aside, the manual instructions are fairly inconcise, pertaining to this area of construction; the outboard lead weight provided, has to be cut in half, so as to provide a section for each side. Do these halved sections need to be trimmed such that their respective weights are the same??
When I have time, I think that this area of the manual may need to be written for those who like me, who are fairly ignorant as per engineering detail. Apart from that, I am really enjoying the building experience.!!
In my previous life, when God gave out brains to those lined up in the queue for aircraft building, I must have taken a dunny break.!!! Thank God for Rick Harper, my technical counsellor.

Kind regards,
Greg. Gordon.
Elite. 724.

This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Alan Hepburn · Post by **Alan Hepburn** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Thanks, Wayne. I'm still undecided as to which way to go. Check #1 is
going to be to fly an Elite and see just how big a problem it is. The way
Sean describes it, there is just about zero stick force per g, and that
would be unacceptable to me. But it's hard to imagine it could be that bad.
Maybe we'll hear Bob's opinion when the ramble is over. Sean tells me he
expects the factory to adopt the mod, but we'll see.

I'm currently considering shortening the spades about 25% instead of
narrowing them. Narrowing them presumably reduces the servo moment at the
hinge by about 50%, thus restoring feel. If you shorten them 25%, the lift
force will be reduced by 25% (assuming roughly linear lift distribution),
but the arm of the force will also be reduced by 25%, giving a moment
reduction of darned near 50%, while maintaining the full stab/elevator area,
and the wider spade, which will be more rigid structurally. Of course, some
more weight would be required.

Any comments would be appreciated.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Alan, I'll just offer my 2 cents and wouldn't it make more sense to narrow
the tip balancer "spade" (if this is really deemed necessary) from the
inboard edge outward and then use another rib and 4" or so of aluminum to
lengthen the stab to fill the gap. This will let you keep the full length

of

elevator, that you may just want to full flare a landing. According to Bob

P

the Elite needs ALL the elevator it comes with!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Bob Patterson:

Bob, Sean White has returned from Arizona, where the assembled an Elite
with the modified elevator I mentioned earlier. He reports that the
elevator now has good feel, and is much better harmonized with the
ailerons. I plan to go ahead with the same change. This involves
reducing the span spades by 3 11/16" at each side (i.e. the centre hole
on the spade will now be at the tip), thereby reducing the span of the
whole elevator roughly 8". Currently, I have the spades and elevator
completed but not closed, so this should be an easy mod. The radius of
the spade skins at the tips should also be increased. I plan to go from
the current 1/2" to about 3/4". The easiest way to do this will
probably be to put on a tip skin, just like the rudder. Unfortunately,
since I'm only about half way through the fuselage right now, you'll
have to take Sean's word for it on the handling qualities for quite some
time.

Regards, Al Hepburn.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Keith B. Oliver · Post by **Keith B. Oliver** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:15 pm

Question
Are the sticks being left at factory length ?
I plan to shorten mine depending on force needed for deflection.
It seems to me that the shipped length provides too much leverage
Ideas ? Comments

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Alan Hepburn
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:18 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Thanks, Wayne. I'm still undecided as to which way to go. Check #1 is
going to be to fly an Elite and see just how big a problem it is. The way
Sean describes it, there is just about zero stick force per g, and that
would be unacceptable to me. But it's hard to imagine it could be that bad.
Maybe we'll hear Bob's opinion when the ramble is over. Sean tells me he
expects the factory to adopt the mod, but we'll see.

I'm currently considering shortening the spades about 25% instead of
narrowing them. Narrowing them presumably reduces the servo moment at the
hinge by about 50%, thus restoring feel. If you shorten them 25%, the lift
force will be reduced by 25% (assuming roughly linear lift distribution),
but the arm of the force will also be reduced by 25%, giving a moment
reduction of darned near 50%, while maintaining the full stab/elevator area,
and the wider spade, which will be more rigid structurally. Of course, some
more weight would be required.

Any comments would be appreciated.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Alan, I'll just offer my 2 cents and wouldn't it make more sense to narrow
the tip balancer "spade" (if this is really deemed necessary) from the
inboard edge outward and then use another rib and 4" or so of aluminum to
lengthen the stab to fill the gap. This will let you keep the full length

of

elevator, that you may just want to full flare a landing. According to Bob

P

the Elite needs ALL the elevator it comes with!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Bob Patterson:

Bob, Sean White has returned from Arizona, where the assembled an Elite
with the modified elevator I mentioned earlier. He reports that the
elevator now has good feel, and is much better harmonized with the
ailerons. I plan to go ahead with the same change. This involves
reducing the span spades by 3 11/16" at each side (i.e. the centre hole
on the spade will now be at the tip), thereby reducing the span of the
whole elevator roughly 8". Currently, I have the spades and elevator
completed but not closed, so this should be an easy mod. The radius of
the spade skins at the tips should also be increased. I plan to go from
the current 1/2" to about 3/4". The easiest way to do this will
probably be to put on a tip skin, just like the rudder. Unfortunately,
since I'm only about half way through the fuselage right now, you'll
have to take Sean's word for it on the handling qualities for quite some
time.

Regards, Al Hepburn.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Patterson · Post by **Bob Patterson** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:28 pm

Hi Keith !

I wouldn't shorten the sticks. It's not a question of
leverage, so much as giving more travel for a given deflection.
We <lengthened> the sticks in the prototype Rebel by over 6" to
reduce the sensitivity to control movements ! The shorter
stick meant very small movements resulted in excessive control
deflections, calling for a delicate touch - as well as increasing
the control forces. Later, the throws on bellcranks, and control
horn lengths were adjusted by the factory to further improve the
Rebel's control harmony - making it a very pleasant aircraft to fly !

In the case of the Elite, even a small movement can cause
a quick reaction from the elevators ....

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.---------------------------
At 04:48 PM 7/16/03 -0400, you wrote:

Question
Are the sticks being left at factory length ?
I plan to shorten mine depending on force needed for deflection.
It seems to me that the shipped length provides too much leverage
Ideas ? Comments

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Alan Hepburn
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 11:18 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Thanks, Wayne. I'm still undecided as to which way to go. Check #1 is
going to be to fly an Elite and see just how big a problem it is. The way
Sean describes it, there is just about zero stick force per g, and that
would be unacceptable to me. But it's hard to imagine it could be that bad.
Maybe we'll hear Bob's opinion when the ramble is over. Sean tells me he
expects the factory to adopt the mod, but we'll see.

I'm currently considering shortening the spades about 25% instead of
narrowing them. Narrowing them presumably reduces the servo moment at the
hinge by about 50%, thus restoring feel. If you shorten them 25%, the lift
force will be reduced by 25% (assuming roughly linear lift distribution),
but the arm of the force will also be reduced by 25%, giving a moment
reduction of darned near 50%, while maintaining the full stab/elevator area,
and the wider spade, which will be more rigid structurally. Of course, some
more weight would be required.

Any comments would be appreciated.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Alan, I'll just offer my 2 cents and wouldn't it make more sense to narrow
the tip balancer "spade" (if this is really deemed necessary) from the
inboard edge outward and then use another rib and 4" or so of aluminum to
lengthen the stab to fill the gap. This will let you keep the full length
of
elevator, that you may just want to full flare a landing. According to Bob
P
the Elite needs ALL the elevator it comes with!!

Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Elite Elevator Sensitivity

Bob Patterson:

Bob, Sean White has returned from Arizona, where the assembled an Elite
with the modified elevator I mentioned earlier. He reports that the
elevator now has good feel, and is much better harmonized with the
ailerons. I plan to go ahead with the same change. This involves
reducing the span spades by 3 11/16" at each side (i.e. the centre hole
on the spade will now be at the tip), thereby reducing the span of the
whole elevator roughly 8". Currently, I have the spades and elevator
completed but not closed, so this should be an easy mod. The radius of
the spade skins at the tips should also be increased. I plan to go from
the current 1/2" to about 3/4". The easiest way to do this will
probably be to put on a tip skin, just like the rudder. Unfortunately,
since I'm only about half way through the fuselage right now, you'll
have to take Sean's word for it on the handling qualities for quite some
time.

Regards, Al Hepburn.

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------
*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Alan Hepburn · Post by **Alan Hepburn** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:28 pm

Folks:

I have now flown an Elite on amphibious floats, and can report as
follows:

The aircraft flown had been modified from the Murphy design by adding a
down spring to the elevator cable (picture available for anybody
interested). Without this, the original test pilot reported that pitch
control was unacceptable. He is a 34,000 hour corporate jet pilot, who
flies a clipped wing Monocoupe (kind of like a high wing Gee-Bee) for
recreation, so I'm inclined to believe him.

I found the airplane somewhat sensitive in pitch, but not excessively
so. It did, however, exhibit mild divergence in pitch, which I've never
encountered in flying more than forty types of production light
aircraft, and a few homebuilts. The effect is as follows: in trimmed
cruising flight, when you nudge the sick forward or backward and release
it, the airplane continues to pitch in the original direction, rather
than returning to the trimmed attitude. At first, you wonder when this
is going to stop, and whether the thing would eventually attempt a loop
if left unchecked. However, the pitching stops about 4 degrees from the
initial attitude. A little unnerving at first, but it's quite gradual
and controllable, and the owner quite likes it that way. This may be
due to the floats, but I think not. It does not appear to be due to
friction in the control system.

Reports on the clipped elevator version in Nevada continue to be
positive. My present inclination is narrowing the spades on mine,
though the down spring is certainly by far the simplest approach for
anybody who has already completed the airplane. I think I will go with
Wayne's suggestion of narrowing the spades from the inside, and grafting
on an extension to the horizontal stab. It turns out Murphy included a
couple of extra stab tip ribs in my kit, so this will be really easy in
my case.

While not endorsing the change, the factory do nothing to discourage it.
In fact, I think we will eventually see something along these lines
adopted.

For those interested, Sean also has a rather neat electric pump (marine
source) driving the float hydraulics on the aircraft I flew. I will
certainly go electric on mine, but plan to look into other pumps -
perhaps the gear pump from a Piper Seneca, since the marine pump is a
bit bulky.

Regards, Al

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
To unsubscribe from this list go to:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/code/html-subscribe.wcx
Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*

-----------------------------------------------------------------
List archives located at: https://mail.dcsol.com/login
username "rebel" password "builder"
Unsubscribe: rebel-builders-unsubscribe@dcsol.com
List administrator: mike.davis@dcsol.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------