The Murphy Builders Site

Warren,
Are you saying that you dimpled enf to get an avex rivet head to not stick up
above the wing skin? (and then filled, etc) This seems like a deep dimple,
esp considering face of the rivet head that touches the skin is flat instead
of tapered.

And, on those areas you countersunk, I don't get the part about shaving the
heads -- I wouldn't think you could remove much of the head without ruining
the rivet's abilty to hold parts together.

Can you clarify on these two questions?
-Ben

-> You can probably stop there but as I had dimpled or countersunk the
-> entire wing I next
-> Shaved flush heads in CS areas
-> filled over dimple with same filler, sanded.
-> This was followed by a thin layer of automotive glaze, sanded
-> My entire wing is like glass with the exception of the bottom tank skin.
-> I was careful to not have to sand the alum for fear of thinning,
-> especially the thin wing skin.
-> Don't ask how many extra hours as I don't even want to know!



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Wow!


Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren Montgomery" <monty@emirates.net.ae>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: Rivet Heads - Protection

I injected primer into the mandrel hole, ,let dry.
Then using large gauge needle injected Polyfil lite. (blue colored
lightweight microballon epoxy filler available at AS&S)
Then leveled with a fiber deburring wheel.

You can probably stop there but as I had dimpled or countersunk the
entire wing I next
Shaved flush heads in CS areas
filled over dimple with same filler, sanded.
This was followed by a thin layer of automotive glaze, sanded
My entire wing is like glass with the exception of the bottom tank skin.
I was careful to not have to sand the alum for fear of thinning,
especially the thin wing skin.
Don't ask how many extra hours as I don't even want to know!

If you're wondering how to find rivets for removal, paint stripper
readily lifts the epoxy filler.
Yes I'd do it again but as I'm using 6 bays for fuel I'd use .032 for
wing skins and CS instead of dimple.

My stab and Elev use mushroom head rivets but I plan on disassembling
and using flush rivets as I do the 3500 upgrade.
Warren

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I'd be interested in any ideas anybody may have regarding preparation of
rivet heads for painting. It seems to me that these rivet heads must be
a prime site for corrosion - aluminum/steel interface, unprotected
steel, crevice in which moisture can lodge, etc. Does the normal
priming/painting process offer adequate protection, or some special
attention required?

Al Hepburn

Elite #587



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I injected primer into the mandrel hole, ,let dry.
Then using large gauge needle injected Polyfil lite. (blue colored
lightweight microballon epoxy filler available at AS&S)
Then leveled with a fiber deburring wheel.

You can probably stop there but as I had dimpled or countersunk the
entire wing I next
Shaved flush heads in CS areas
filled over dimple with same filler, sanded.
This was followed by a thin layer of automotive glaze, sanded
My entire wing is like glass with the exception of the bottom tank skin.
I was careful to not have to sand the alum for fear of thinning,
especially the thin wing skin.
Don't ask how many extra hours as I don't even want to know!

If you're wondering how to find rivets for removal, paint stripper
readily lifts the epoxy filler.
Yes I'd do it again but as I'm using 6 bays for fuel I'd use .032 for
wing skins and CS instead of dimple.

My stab and Elev use mushroom head rivets but I plan on disassembling
and using flush rivets as I do the 3500 upgrade.
Warren

Alan Hepburn wrote:

I'd be interested in any ideas anybody may have regarding preparation of
rivet heads for painting. It seems to me that these rivet heads must be
a prime site for corrosion - aluminum/steel interface, unprotected
steel, crevice in which moisture can lodge, etc. Does the normal
priming/painting process offer adequate protection, or some special
attention required?

Al Hepburn

Elite #587



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Actually MAMs dimpler I received was too deep and I used one form AS&S
or ATS.
The central part of the rivet was slightly proud after pulling which I
used the fibre wheel to level.
A dimpled joint is stronger in shear, very little of a joint is in
tension which depth or height of rivet effects.
Of course I've used about 9,000 flush rivets (The Fuss is flush as well)
and you soon get good at it.

For CS aareas, a rivet shaver is used. This is a very expensive tool
that I was lucky enough to be able to borrow
from our structures shop.. I also ordered 5/32 & 3/16 CS rivets which I
used on the wing doubler. Coutersinking was
done with an adjustable CS with appropriate bits.

Having flown highspeed aircraft for 20+ years I just can't stand the
look of draggy rivets.
BTW I'm putting the very blunt M14 up front so don't expect any
performance gains.

Warren

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Warren,
Are you saying that you dimpled enf to get an avex rivet head to not stick up
above the wing skin? (and then filled, etc) This seems like a deep dimple,
esp considering face of the rivet head that touches the skin is flat instead
of tapered.

And, on those areas you countersunk, I don't get the part about shaving the
heads -- I wouldn't think you could remove much of the head without ruining
the rivet's abilty to hold parts together.

Can you clarify on these two questions?
-Ben

-> You can probably stop there but as I had dimpled or countersunk the
-> entire wing I next
-> Shaved flush heads in CS areas
-> filled over dimple with same filler, sanded.
-> This was followed by a thin layer of automotive glaze, sanded
-> My entire wing is like glass with the exception of the bottom tank skin.
-> I was careful to not have to sand the alum for fear of thinning,
-> especially the thin wing skin.
-> Don't ask how many extra hours as I don't even want to know!



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Did you use pulled avex style rivets or AN bucked rivets? I thought you could only use shavers for bucked rivets that were designed for the shaving process. Bucking and shaving is a little different than what I have been doing. Where do you get rivets designed for shaving?

Rick Muller
SR70
-------Original Message-------
From: Warren Montgomery <monty@emirates.net.ae>
Sent: 05/12/03 01:04 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rivet Heads - Protection

Actually MAMs dimpler I received was too deep and I used one form AS&S

or ATS.
The central part of the rivet was slightly proud after pulling which I
used the fibre wheel to level.
A dimpled joint is stronger in shear, very little of a joint is in
tension which depth or height of rivet effects.
Of course I've used about 9,000 flush rivets (The Fuss is flush as well)
and you soon get good at it.

For CS aareas, a rivet shaver is used. This is a very expensive tool
that I was lucky enough to be able to borrow
from our structures shop.. I also ordered 5/32 & 3/16 CS rivets which I
used on the wing doubler. Coutersinking was
done with an adjustable CS with appropriate bits.

Having flown highspeed aircraft for 20+ years I just can't stand the
look of draggy rivets.
BTW I'm putting the very blunt M14 up front so don't expect any
performance gains.

Warren

bransom@dcsol.com wrote:

Warren,
Are you saying that you dimpled enf to get an avex rivet head to not

stick up

above the wing skin? (and then filled, etc) This seems like a deep

dimple,

esp considering face of the rivet head that touches the skin is flat

instead

of tapered.

And, on those areas you countersunk, I don't get the part about shaving

the

heads -- I wouldn't think you could remove much of the head without

ruining

the rivet's abilty to hold parts together.

Can you clarify on these two questions?
-Ben

-> You can probably stop there but as I had dimpled or countersunk the
-> entire wing I next
-> Shaved flush heads in CS areas
-> filled over dimple with same filler, sanded.
-> This was followed by a thin layer of automotive glaze, sanded
-> My entire wing is like glass with the exception of the bottom tank

skin.

-> I was careful to not have to sand the alum for fear of thinning,
-> especially the thin wing skin.
-> Don't ask how many extra hours as I don't even want to know!

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Uploaded a picture of rivet heads on a completed Super Rebel. In Area 66 -
S Miscellaneous. They look rusty to me. They were dipped. May not affect
strength but doesn't look good.



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Hi Al !

Apparently, this is not as high-risk an area as it might
appear.... The steel mandrel is coated (with a phosphorous
coating, I recall ...) and the coating supposedly gives corrosion
protection (anodic ??) covering the diameter of the mandrel, so,
even though it's exposed, it has protection.....

If the rivets are dipped in Polyfiber Epoxy Primer before
pulling (wet), some of the epoxy will be pulled up into the body,
protecting the mandrel & sealing the rivet.

If you then prime & paint the aircraft using a HVLP spray
setup, the primer, & paint should flow into the dip in the rivet
head, completing the protection. I'm told that a conventional
spray setup would have so much air pressure that it would keep
the sprayed paint from entering the 'blind canyon' of the
rivet head, just blowing out again because of backpressure ....

FWIW, Rebel Number 001 was painted with a high pressure
gun, and sat outside for most of 13 years now, with only one
slightly rust-stained rivet that I could see !! That was 'discoloured',
not corroded right through !!! ;-) :-)

My impression is that many builders spend 'way too much
time worrying about this 'problem' - Your Elite will be fine !! :-)
All of the airframe strength calculations are done WITHOUT the
mandrel - so even if it were to rust out completely, there'd
be no danger !!

......bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------
At 08:01 AM 5/12/03 -0400, you wrote:

I'd be interested in any ideas anybody may have regarding preparation of
rivet heads for painting. It seems to me that these rivet heads must be
a prime site for corrosion - aluminum/steel interface, unprotected
steel, crevice in which moisture can lodge, etc. Does the normal
priming/painting process offer adequate protection, or some special
attention required?

Al Hepburn

Elite #587



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They DO look rusty ! Interesting that not ALL of them look
like this .... Was this a QB, after a long ocean voyage ???

Are these 5/16" Stainless rivets, or is it just a close-up ?
The stainless rivets need a bit of extra care, as they react with
aluminum, but a film of epoxy primer should do the trick.

In any case, a quick etching & priming using HVLP would
likely have prevented it .....

......bobp

-------------------------------orig.---------------------------------
At 10:22 AM 5/13/03 -0600, you wrote:

Uploaded a picture of rivet heads on a completed Super Rebel. In Area 66 -
S Miscellaneous. They look rusty to me. They were dipped. May not affect
strength but doesn't look good.



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Hi, Bob:

Well, I note what Warren Montgomery had to say on this, and that sure sounds
like a lot of work! I am not looking to build a masterpiece, but I did
notice on the stab that was built by the guy I bought the kit from, and
which has been stored in a shed for a few years without finishing, that
there was some rust on some of the mandrels. The coating and dipping will
protect the mandrel, but not where it breaks off. So maybe your words about
the HVLP spray system are the key. Will wait to see what others come up
with.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Rivet Heads - Protection

Hi Al !

Apparently, this is not as high-risk an area as it might
appear.... The steel mandrel is coated (with a phosphorous
coating, I recall ...) and the coating supposedly gives corrosion
protection (anodic ??) covering the diameter of the mandrel, so,
even though it's exposed, it has protection.....

If the rivets are dipped in Polyfiber Epoxy Primer before
pulling (wet), some of the epoxy will be pulled up into the body,
protecting the mandrel & sealing the rivet.

If you then prime & paint the aircraft using a HVLP spray
setup, the primer, & paint should flow into the dip in the rivet
head, completing the protection. I'm told that a conventional
spray setup would have so much air pressure that it would keep
the sprayed paint from entering the 'blind canyon' of the
rivet head, just blowing out again because of backpressure ....

FWIW, Rebel Number 001 was painted with a high pressure
gun, and sat outside for most of 13 years now, with only one
slightly rust-stained rivet that I could see !! That was 'discoloured',
not corroded right through !!! ;-) :-)

My impression is that many builders spend 'way too much
time worrying about this 'problem' - Your Elite will be fine !! :-)
All of the airframe strength calculations are done WITHOUT the
mandrel - so even if it were to rust out completely, there'd
be no danger !!

......bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------
At 08:01 AM 5/12/03 -0400, you wrote:

I'd be interested in any ideas anybody may have regarding preparation of
rivet heads for painting. It seems to me that these rivet heads must be
a prime site for corrosion - aluminum/steel interface, unprotected
steel, crevice in which moisture can lodge, etc. Does the normal
priming/painting process offer adequate protection, or some special
attention required?

Al Hepburn

Elite #587

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If you have people that drop by your shop and keep you from getting on with
the project, hand them a Dixie cup with some Epoxy EP420 in it and a rivet.
Get them to use the rivet as a handle to dip the sharp point of the mandrel
in the Epoxy and then touch to the rivet mandrel hole on each and every
rivet of your wings, stab, etc. Takes about two or three trips around to
fill them completely and then when dry you buff off with some scotchbrite.
Howard's airplane was done like this and looks like solid rivets instead of
pulls.

My airplane has no rusty rivets after 8+ years, but of course it is
hangered most of the time. I have a bad habit of flying in the rain though
(like Saturday right after we finished flying 38 YE kids and I pretty much
lost vis on short final approach to my field!), so they do get moist enough
at times to start the process if it wanted to start rusting, but it hasn't!
Haven't seen any real signs of rust on any of the other Rebel's through the
shop either, including FOKM (built 1992 and outside most of it's life!)

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
oifa@irishfield.on.ca
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Hepburn" <ahepburn@renc.igs.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: Rivet Heads - Protection

Hi, Bob:

Well, I note what Warren Montgomery had to say on this, and that sure

sounds

like a lot of work! I am not looking to build a masterpiece, but I did
notice on the stab that was built by the guy I bought the kit from, and
which has been stored in a shed for a few years without finishing, that
there was some rust on some of the mandrels. The coating and dipping will
protect the mandrel, but not where it breaks off. So maybe your words

about

the HVLP spray system are the key. Will wait to see what others come up
with.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Patterson" <apat@istar.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2003 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Rivet Heads - Protection

Hi Al !

Apparently, this is not as high-risk an area as it might
appear.... The steel mandrel is coated (with a phosphorous
coating, I recall ...) and the coating supposedly gives corrosion
protection (anodic ??) covering the diameter of the mandrel, so,
even though it's exposed, it has protection.....

If the rivets are dipped in Polyfiber Epoxy Primer before
pulling (wet), some of the epoxy will be pulled up into the body,
protecting the mandrel & sealing the rivet.

If you then prime & paint the aircraft using a HVLP spray
setup, the primer, & paint should flow into the dip in the rivet
head, completing the protection. I'm told that a conventional
spray setup would have so much air pressure that it would keep
the sprayed paint from entering the 'blind canyon' of the
rivet head, just blowing out again because of backpressure ....

FWIW, Rebel Number 001 was painted with a high pressure
gun, and sat outside for most of 13 years now, with only one
slightly rust-stained rivet that I could see !! That was 'discoloured',
not corroded right through !!! ;-) :-)

My impression is that many builders spend 'way too much
time worrying about this 'problem' - Your Elite will be fine !! :-)
All of the airframe strength calculations are done WITHOUT the
mandrel - so even if it were to rust out completely, there'd
be no danger !!

......bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------
At 08:01 AM 5/12/03 -0400, you wrote:

I'd be interested in any ideas anybody may have regarding preparation

of

rivet heads for painting. It seems to me that these rivet heads must

be

a prime site for corrosion - aluminum/steel interface, unprotected
steel, crevice in which moisture can lodge, etc. Does the normal
priming/painting process offer adequate protection, or some special
attention required?

Al Hepburn

Elite #587

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