The Murphy Builders Site

I uploaded a pic of Drew's failed seat back. Fortunately he was not hurt
when it failed. The fracture goes through the first rivet hole. It
was suggested that maybe the aluminum should be wrapped around the frame
and riveted to itself instead of riveting into the frame...

Drew also mentioned that he upholstered these seats with upholstery
removed from some rear car seats at a cost of $15. Rear seats are
usually in excellant condition when cars are scrapped and his seats are
very nice and complete with rear map pockets.

Ken




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This is an old, old problem. I would have assumed MAM
had this fixed on their seats long ago. A local Rebel
here in the early 90's had his seat break that way, and
I then had mine reinforced with some support pieces
welded on to get around that weak spot. It's been so
long, though, that I can't remember exactly how that
was done.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brian Lawson
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 6:39 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: failed seat back - Brampton
Rebel meeting


Hey Ken,

Thanks for that. First I've seen about this.

It would seem to me that if the back panel
was carried/wrapped at
least part-way around the up-rights (ie: to
the sides), that it would
both strengthen the panel itself, and keep
the rivets away from the
weakest point. It was probably not a good
idea (or necessary) to have
a rivet right in that area either, even if
the spacing was dribbled.

Anybody got a "fix" yet?

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Windsor, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Sat, 10 May 2003 21:15:44 -0400, you wrote:

I uploaded a pic of Drew's failed seat

back. Fortunately he was not hurt

when it failed. The fracture goes

through the first rivet hole. It

was suggested that maybe the aluminum

should be wrapped around the frame

and riveted to itself instead of riveting

into the frame...

Drew also mentioned that he upholstered

these seats with upholstery

removed from some rear car seats at a cost

of $15. Rear seats are

usually in excellant condition when cars

are scrapped and his seats are

very nice and complete with rear map pockets.

Ken




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I think he did what I did - Rivet to the front of the seat. This is
incorrect and makes high stress across the rivet hole. With the
panel/riveting on the back of the seat the rivet hole is in compression when
leaning on the back of the seat. You don't want to lean on the seat back it
riveted to the front.

Chuck
176R
N225PC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Lawson" <lawsonb@mnsi.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: failed seat back - Brampton Rebel meeting

Hey Ken,

Thanks for that. First I've seen about this.

It would seem to me that if the back panel was carried/wrapped at
least part-way around the up-rights (ie: to the sides), that it would
both strengthen the panel itself, and keep the rivets away from the
weakest point. It was probably not a good idea (or necessary) to have
a rivet right in that area either, even if the spacing was dribbled.

Anybody got a "fix" yet?

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Windsor, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Sat, 10 May 2003 21:15:44 -0400, you wrote:

I uploaded a pic of Drew's failed seat back. Fortunately he was not hurt

when it failed. The fracture goes through the first rivet hole. It
was suggested that maybe the aluminum should be wrapped around the frame

and riveted to itself instead of riveting into the frame...

Drew also mentioned that he upholstered these seats with upholstery
removed from some rear car seats at a cost of $15. Rear seats are
usually in excellant condition when cars are scrapped and his seats are
very nice and complete with rear map pockets.

Ken




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Hey Ken,

Thanks for that. First I've seen about this.

It would seem to me that if the back panel was carried/wrapped at
least part-way around the up-rights (ie: to the sides), that it would
both strengthen the panel itself, and keep the rivets away from the
weakest point. It was probably not a good idea (or necessary) to have
a rivet right in that area either, even if the spacing was dribbled.

Anybody got a "fix" yet?

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Windsor, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Sat, 10 May 2003 21:15:44 -0400, you wrote:

I uploaded a pic of Drew's failed seat back. Fortunately he was not hurt

when it failed. The fracture goes through the first rivet hole. It
was suggested that maybe the aluminum should be wrapped around the frame

and riveted to itself instead of riveting into the frame...

Drew also mentioned that he upholstered these seats with upholstery
removed from some rear car seats at a cost of $15. Rear seats are
usually in excellant condition when cars are scrapped and his seats are
very nice and complete with rear map pockets.

Ken




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Walter, I just looked at the picture of Drew's Rebel seat back and that >IS<
the newer designed seat frame!!! ;o((

The original just had tabs welded to it for a hinge point, without the
diagonal brace and square tube for a hinge point as are shown in the
picture.

Somewhere along the line it was also suggested to install the aluminum
panels to the back of the seat frame (although I think all the manual
versions still shows front!) so the drilled holes are in compression and not
tension when you lean back against it.

The trees must have been coming up awfully fast for Drew to be pushing that
hard on the brakes to get the equal and opposite reaction to the seat back!!
;o))))))

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
oifa@irishfield.on.ca
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: failed seat back - Brampton Rebel meeting

This is an old, old problem. I would have assumed MAM
had this fixed on their seats long ago. A local Rebel
here in the early 90's had his seat break that way, and
I then had mine reinforced with some support pieces
welded on to get around that weak spot. It's been so
long, though, that I can't remember exactly how that
was done.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brian Lawson
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 6:39 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: failed seat back - Brampton
Rebel meeting


Hey Ken,

Thanks for that. First I've seen about this.

It would seem to me that if the back panel
was carried/wrapped at
least part-way around the up-rights (ie: to
the sides), that it would
both strengthen the panel itself, and keep
the rivets away from the
weakest point. It was probably not a good
idea (or necessary) to have
a rivet right in that area either, even if
the spacing was dribbled.

Anybody got a "fix" yet?

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Windsor, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Sat, 10 May 2003 21:15:44 -0400, you wrote:

I uploaded a pic of Drew's failed seat

back. Fortunately he was not hurt

when it failed. The fracture goes

through the first rivet hole. It

was suggested that maybe the aluminum

should be wrapped around the frame

and riveted to itself instead of riveting

into the frame...

Drew also mentioned that he upholstered

these seats with upholstery

removed from some rear car seats at a cost

of $15. Rear seats are

usually in excellant condition when cars

are scrapped and his seats are

very nice and complete with rear map pockets.

Ken




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Hi All !

Two suggestions for a better way to do this came up at
the meeting - you could use a larger sheet of aluminum, and
wrap around the tubing, rivetting to the aluminum again.

OR - the preferred method, which is also 'WAY more
comfortable - use heavy upholstry canvas and have it wrapped
around the tubes & sewn to itself with an industrial machine.
It's softer than aluminum, ;-) and flexes more when necessary !!

A third suggestion came after the meeting - use chair
webbing in straps that would wrap the tubes and criss-cross all
the way to the bottom, and secure with a strong fastener, to itself.

It surprises me that they still recommend "Swiss-Cheesing"
the steel tubing, knowing how much this weakens the 'sometimes-heavily'
loaded steel ! ;-) :-)

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 12:30 PM 5/11/03 -0400, you wrote:

Walter, I just looked at the picture of Drew's Rebel seat back and that >IS<
the newer designed seat frame!!! ;o((

The original just had tabs welded to it for a hinge point, without the
diagonal brace and square tube for a hinge point as are shown in the
picture.

Somewhere along the line it was also suggested to install the aluminum
panels to the back of the seat frame (although I think all the manual
versions still shows front!) so the drilled holes are in compression and not
tension when you lean back against it.

The trees must have been coming up awfully fast for Drew to be pushing that
hard on the brakes to get the equal and opposite reaction to the seat back!!
;o))))))

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
oifa@irishfield.on.ca
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: failed seat back - Brampton Rebel meeting

This is an old, old problem. I would have assumed MAM
had this fixed on their seats long ago. A local Rebel
here in the early 90's had his seat break that way, and
I then had mine reinforced with some support pieces
welded on to get around that weak spot. It's been so
long, though, that I can't remember exactly how that
was done.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brian Lawson
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 6:39 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: failed seat back - Brampton
Rebel meeting


Hey Ken,

Thanks for that. First I've seen about this.

It would seem to me that if the back panel
was carried/wrapped at
least part-way around the up-rights (ie: to
the sides), that it would
both strengthen the panel itself, and keep
the rivets away from the
weakest point. It was probably not a good
idea (or necessary) to have
a rivet right in that area either, even if
the spacing was dribbled.

Anybody got a "fix" yet?

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Windsor, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Sat, 10 May 2003 21:15:44 -0400, you wrote:
back. Fortunately he was not hurt
through the first rivet hole. It should be wrapped around the frame
into the frame... these seats with upholstery of $15. Rear seats are are scrapped and his seats are

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I had a look at mine today, and they have the braces
welded on, but I think a little higher and longer than
Drew's. Also, at the back, I have a couple of angle
cross pieces just above where the front ones attach for
a little added strength. So hopefully, I don't have to
worry about mine.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:30 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: failed seat back - Brampton
Rebel meeting


Walter, I just looked at the picture of
Drew's Rebel seat back and that >IS<
the newer designed seat frame!!! ;o((

The original just had tabs welded to it for
a hinge point, without the
diagonal brace and square tube for a hinge
point as are shown in the
picture.

Somewhere along the line it was also
suggested to install the aluminum
panels to the back of the seat frame
(although I think all the manual
versions still shows front!) so the drilled
holes are in compression and not
tension when you lean back against it.

The trees must have been coming up awfully
fast for Drew to be pushing that
hard on the brakes to get the equal and
opposite reaction to the seat back!!
;o))))))

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
oifa@irishfield.on.ca
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: failed seat back - Brampton
Rebel meeting

This is an old, old problem. I would have

assumed MAM

had this fixed on their seats long ago. A

local Rebel

here in the early 90's had his seat break

that way, and

I then had mine reinforced with some support pieces
welded on to get around that weak spot.

It's been so

long, though, that I can't remember

exactly how that

was done.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Brian Lawson
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 6:39 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: failed seat back - Brampton
Rebel meeting


Hey Ken,

Thanks for that. First I've seen about this.

It would seem to me that if the back panel
was carried/wrapped at
least part-way around the up-rights (ie: to
the sides), that it would
both strengthen the panel itself, and keep
the rivets away from the
weakest point. It was probably not a good
idea (or necessary) to have
a rivet right in that area either, even if
the spacing was dribbled.

Anybody got a "fix" yet?

Take care.

Brian Lawson,
Windsor, Ontario.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
On Sat, 10 May 2003 21:15:44 -0400, you wrote:
back. Fortunately he was not hurt
through the first rivet hole. It should be wrapped around the frame
into the frame... these seats with upholstery of $15. Rear seats are are scrapped and his seats are

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Just click on the archives at the bottom of this
message, then click files, and then click new files in
last 7 days.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
mnleber@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 7:38 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: failed seat back - Brampton
Rebel meeting


Where is the broken seat picture. Can't find
it on archives.

Thanks


Mike LeBer




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Where is the broken seat picture. Can't find it on archives.

Thanks


Mike LeBer




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Mike,

Go to <A HREF="http://www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm">ht ... ult.htm</A> and pick files. Then click on
new and you should be able to view the seat pic's

Bruce 357R



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My manual (#687) doesn't specifically indicate whether to attach the back
panel on the front or back of the seat(back) frame, but if the rear panel is
cut per MAM's directions the only place it fits is on the back of the frame.
So that is where I ended up putting it. Personally I think I would have
preferred webbing, but I didn't think about it at the time.

R. Hoffman #687R
Eugene, OR USA!

On 5/12/2003 7:22 AM, OIFA@IRISHFIELD.ON.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

-> Somewhere along the line it was also suggested to install the aluminum
-> panels to the back of the seat frame (although I think all the manual
-> versions still shows front!) so the drilled holes are in compression and not
-> tension when you lean back against it.




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There is a Murphy Safety bulliten that addresses the Rebel seat back
reinforcement and skin location. It is Safety Bulliten # 070595RB issued
July 5, 1995. I believe these are available on the MAM web site.
Rick D.
Rebel 404R

rognal@dcsol.com wrote:

My manual (#687) doesn't specifically indicate whether to attach the back
panel on the front or back of the seat(back) frame, but if the rear panel is
cut per MAM's directions the only place it fits is on the back of the frame.
So that is where I ended up putting it. Personally I think I would have
preferred webbing, but I didn't think about it at the time.

R. Hoffman #687R
Eugene, OR USA!

On 5/12/2003 7:22 AM, OIFA@IRISHFIELD.ON.CA wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

-> Somewhere along the line it was also suggested to install the aluminum
-> panels to the back of the seat frame (although I think all the manual
-> versions still shows front!) so the drilled holes are in compression and not
-> tension when you lean back against it.




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I have two of the newer seat backs hanging in the shop and they appear to
match the picture of Drew's broken seat for angle brace dimensions.

I also had a look at the SR seat backs I have here (the higher dome back
seats) and they have a brace channel that goes up almost as high as the old
shorter seats were in full height, so they shouldn't be of a concern at all.

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
oifa@irishfield.on.ca
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:39 PM
Subject: RE: failed seat back - Brampton Rebel meeting

I had a look at mine today, and they have the braces
welded on, but I think a little higher and longer than
Drew's. Also, at the back, I have a couple of angle
cross pieces just above where the front ones attach for
a little added strength. So hopefully, I don't have to
worry about mine.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com
[mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:30 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: failed seat back - Brampton
Rebel meeting


Walter, I just looked at the picture of
Drew's Rebel seat back and that >IS<
the newer designed seat frame!!! ;o((

The original just had tabs welded to it for
a hinge point, without the
diagonal brace and square tube for a hinge
point as are shown in the
picture.

Somewhere along the line it was also
suggested to install the aluminum
panels to the back of the seat frame
(although I think all the manual
versions still shows front!) so the drilled
holes are in compression and not
tension when you lean back against it.

The trees must have been coming up awfully
fast for Drew to be pushing that
hard on the brakes to get the equal and
opposite reaction to the seat back!!
;o))))))

Cheers,
Wayne G. O'Shea
oifa@irishfield.on.ca
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: failed seat back - Brampton
Rebel meeting

This is an old, old problem. I would have

assumed MAM

had this fixed on their seats long ago. A

local Rebel

here in the early 90's had his seat break

that way, and

I then had mine reinforced with some support pieces
welded on to get around that weak spot.

It's been so

long, though, that I can't remember

exactly how that

was done.

Walter
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Thank's for putting that picture up Ken. To all. When the seat failed I was
taxiing across the ramp at centralia I was not placing any extra stress on
it other than maybe wriggling around a bit to get settled. The seat back
didn't snap in two it just quietly folded back. I may have overstressed the
back a month or so ago when I was rearranging a new jacket I have that's
covered with bits of velcro. The rivet holes are close enough to the weld
that the steel probably doesn't have any temper left in it. I talked to
Brian Godden today to report the failure and he said they'd look into it
but he didn't sound very concerned about it.


At 09:15 PM 5/10/2003 -0400, you wrote:

I uploaded a pic of Drew's failed seat back. Fortunately he was not hurt
when it failed. The fracture goes through the first rivet hole. It
was suggested that maybe the aluminum should be wrapped around the frame
and riveted to itself instead of riveting into the frame...

Drew also mentioned that he upholstered these seats with upholstery
removed from some rear car seats at a cost of $15. Rear seats are
usually in excellant condition when cars are scrapped and his seats are
very nice and complete with rear map pockets.

Ken




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Drew Dalgleish




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The welds on your seat looked excellent to me Drew but no matter how
good the weld, I agree that there is probably still risk from the heat
affected zone (HAZ) there even though I think the 4130 is normally
supplied in an annealed state. Don't know about .035 wall tube but I've
seen the HAZ change the temper in both directions (softer and harder)
with thicker steel, depending on air cooling surface and heat conduction
into the part. With a quick look I thought the rivet hole was a bigger
factor on your seat but either way I'm still inclined to think it is a
trouble spot if cracks are propagating from a round rivet hole. And I
suspect a risk probably exists even without rivets. A tube cantilevered
past a welded joint is a potential failure point in my opinion unless
stress is kept very low. I hate seeing engine mounts where that is done.
Sounds like MAM has fixed this on the SR from what Wayne said. Bet they
upgrade the Rebel seat back eventually as well. I might add some more
re-inforcement on mine even though I did not rivet into the frame.
thanks for sharing this with us.
Ken


Drew Dalgleish wrote:

Thank's for putting that picture up Ken. To all. When the seat failed I was
taxiing across the ramp at centralia I was not placing any extra stress on
it other than maybe wriggling around a bit to get settled. The seat back
didn't snap in two it just quietly folded back. I may have overstressed the
back a month or so ago when I was rearranging a new jacket I have that's
covered with bits of velcro. The rivet holes are close enough to the weld
that the steel probably doesn't have any temper left in it. I talked to
Brian Godden today to report the failure and he said they'd look into it
but he didn't sound very concerned about it.

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