The Murphy Builders Site

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Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 19:37:48 +0100
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Elevator ;Rudder TIPS
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From: Johannes.Laubenthal@t-online.de (Johannes Laubenthal)

Merry Christmas!
Want to install my tips removable. Rivnuts or Nutserts for example.Does
anyone
tried this? Rivetsize and material( Aluminium or Stainless)??
Johannes Laubenthal Germany R 603




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I used rivnuts, aluminum with stainless tread inserts. Install like pop
rivets.
Screw size 6-32. Also used these for all my inspection covers, fairing
covers and
everything else that needed removal. Would use nut plates if had to do over
again. More timeconsuming to install but they would never spin.

Dave Bangle

Johannes Laubenthal wrote:

Merry Christmas!
Want to install my tips removable. Rivnuts or Nutserts for example.Does

anyone

tried this? Rivetsize and material( Aluminium or Stainless)??
Johannes Laubenthal Germany R 603

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator ;Rudder TIPS
Message-Id: <E0zuI0t-0000kb-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:21:51 -0500


Have tried Rivnuts - generally NOT a good idea! They almost always
start to slip & spin - pretty useless !! I believe the larger diameter
rivnuts would be better, especially if they were installed with epoxy or
ProSeal. They work better because, having larger diameter, there is more
surface area to grip, therefor less likely to slip....

Floating nutplates are ideal, but a LOT of work to install.

For what it's worth, the Murphy factory always rivets the tips on -
they are so good at drilling out rivets, they claim it's just as fast as
undoing bolts !!!

......bobp
-------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 07:37 PM 12/25/98 +0100, you wrote:

Merry Christmas!
Want to install my tips removable. Rivnuts or Nutserts for example.Does

anyone

tried this? Rivetsize and material( Aluminium or Stainless)??
Johannes Laubenthal Germany R 603

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Hi

I agree with Dave Bangle. Nut plates are more work to put it but then you
never have to worry about them spinning. Al rivnuts can either spin or get
stripped. If you replace the rivnuts you have a large hole left to deal
with
as well.

Brian



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Hi

I believe that is a 'stretch' for the Murphy folks to say that it is just as
fast to drill out 2 rivets than to unscrew one 6-32 by 3/8" screw. Give me
a
reversible drill unscrewing screws vs. drilling out 2 rivets and you will
lose
everytime. The main factor is that you assume you can drill out all of
those
holes with NO damage to the main skins etc. Why bother taking the risk?


Brian #328R

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From: "Alister Yeoman" <yeoman@voyager.co.nz>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator ;Rudder TIPS
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Hi there,

I'll just put my two cents worth in here, after building and painting, I
had to remove both my elevator tip and wing tip for the odd mod or two, I
found it was absolutely no problem even though I had riveted them on.

They were off in just a few minutes, the rivets are dead cheap to replace
and they are light! (remember after building an aircraft we have all the
skills now!!!)

The only downside was that they need to be repainted, but what I did there
was I purchased an ink pen approximately the same color as the paintwork
then a few minutes latter you would not know the difference.

Cheers

Alister
----------

From: RebelAir@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Elevator ;Rudder TIPS
Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 8:48 AM

Hi

I believe that is a 'stretch' for the Murphy folks to say that it is just

as

fast to drill out 2 rivets than to unscrew one 6-32 by 3/8" screw. Give

me a

reversible drill unscrewing screws vs. drilling out 2 rivets and you will

lose

everytime. The main factor is that you assume you can drill out all of

those

holes with NO damage to the main skins etc. Why bother taking the risk?


Brian #328R

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Hi Johannes, Curt Martin.
I installed my tips with floating nut plates. That's wing, rudder, and
elevator. I then used a structural screw ( looks like it already has a
washer
under it) and a thin plastic washer under the head to protect the glass.
Works great, making inspections much easier. I did widen out the spacing
slightly more than the rivets called for, but you'll find the spacing is
pretty natural.
Keep at it, it's really worth it. Curt N97MR

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From: "Joel Jacobs" <jj@netexp.net>
To: "Murphy Rebel" <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator ;Rudder TIPS
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-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Elevator ;Rudder TIPS

Have tried Rivnuts - generally NOT a good idea! They almost always
start to slip & spin - pretty useless !! I believe the larger diameter
rivnuts would be better, especially if they were installed with epoxy or
ProSeal. They work better because, having larger diameter, there is more
surface area to grip, therefor less likely to slip....

Wicks sells a type they call 'NutSerts'. I've used them a few times and
they seem far superior to the rivnuts - they have teeth under the head that
digs into the sheet metal you are installing them in. Even in thin sheet
metal, they are very secure. I can't imagine them coming lose and spinning.
They have a special tool to install them with, but the rivnut installation
tool works great.

Joel

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator ;Rudder TIPS
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Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:36:05 -0500


Thanks for the tip, Joel ! Might be worth a try - sure sounds
better than RivNuts ...

....bobp

----------------------------orig.-------------------------------------
At 02:19 PM 1/1/99 -0500, you wrote:

Wicks sells a type they call 'NutSerts'. I've used them a few times and
they seem far superior to the rivnuts - they have teeth under the head that
digs into the sheet metal you are installing them in. Even in thin sheet
metal, they are very secure. I can't imagine them coming lose and

spinning.

They have a special tool to install them with, but the rivnut installation
tool works great.

Joel


-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
To: Murphy Rebel <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Date: Sunday, December 27, 1998 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Elevator ;Rudder TIPS

Have tried Rivnuts - generally NOT a good idea! They almost always
start to slip & spin - pretty useless !! I believe the larger diameter
rivnuts would be better, especially if they were installed with epoxy or
ProSeal. They work better because, having larger diameter, there is more
surface area to grip, therefor less likely to slip....

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I am leery of using these things. Seems that it would be relatively easy for
a
crack to start from the "teeth" they cut in the hole.
Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks for the tip, Joel ! Might be worth a try - sure sounds
better than RivNuts ...

Wicks sells a type they call 'NutSerts'. I've used them a few times and
they seem far superior to the rivnuts - they have teeth under the head

that

digs into the sheet metal you are installing them in. Even in thin sheet
metal, they are very secure. I can't imagine them coming lose and

spinning.

They have a special tool to install them with, but the rivnut

installation

tool works great.

Have tried Rivnuts - generally NOT a good idea! They almost always
start to slip & spin - pretty useless !! I believe the larger diameter
rivnuts would be better, especially if they were installed with epoxy or
ProSeal. They work better because, having larger diameter, there is more
surface area to grip, therefor less likely to slip....

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com> (Murphy Rebel)
From: Bob Patterson <bob.patterson@canrem.com>
Subject: Re: Elevator ;Rudder TIPS
Message-Id: <E0zwxTH-0004rQ-00@mail2.toronto.istar.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:02:11 -0500


Hmmmmm - seems like there is no easy way !! I assumed that the 'teeth'
were not TOO sharp, or high, in which case, they would just help the grip
a bit. You raise a good point - it might still be worth looking a one of
the 'NutSerts' - just to see how bad it might be. The tip fairings aren't
really a high-stress location, so a little crack might not be a major
problem....

Whatever you do, it will likely be better than the 1/4" hole you
eventually end up with if you use sheet metal screws !! :-)

....bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 09:13 AM 1/3/99 -0500, you wrote:

I am leery of using these things. Seems that it would be relatively easy

for a

crack to start from the "teeth" they cut in the hole.
Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks for the tip, Joel ! Might be worth a try - sure sounds
better than RivNuts ...

Wicks sells a type they call 'NutSerts'. I've used them a few times

and

they seem far superior to the rivnuts - they have teeth under the head

that

digs into the sheet metal you are installing them in. Even in thin

sheet

metal, they are very secure. I can't imagine them coming lose and

spinning.

They have a special tool to install them with, but the rivnut

installation

tool works great.

or

more