The Murphy Builders Site

Hi CJ

Wow, #584, we have 583 so I expect we have run into all the same quirks of the
early Elite kits. We too are building our first plane so I don't think your
lack of experience makes you much different from the rest of us! By the way,
where are you located?

OK, the spars. We have one wing teetering on the brink of the tank sealing
process and the other untouched so looking at the parts we have made the root
end the end that has the first set of rib holes punched closer to the end of the
spar. I believe this is to give you something to attach the overlap of the
fiberglass tips to when they are installed without interfering with the
outermost rib. Both spars are identical and they become right & left when you
add the strut fitting mounts, you just want to lay them out so right is the
mirror image of the left with the "short" end inboard before you start adding
the fittings.

Further indications of this include Figure 8.20.1 on page 44 of the 29 June '98
edition of the manual which shows an isometric view of the wing root and would
indicate the spar does not overhang the root ribs. I am presuming this section
of the manual is correct and up to date as I have not seen a newer version
posted in the support section of the MAM web site.

By the way, this wing structure is essentially the same if not identical to a
high gross Rebel wing so all you Rebel builders out there can follow the same
information. One last thought, it would be helpful if MAM would put a few words
in the manuals about critical items like this so builders, particularly those
who do not have access to this forum, don't get led down the wrong path by the
close similarity of the two ends of the spar. Perhaps omitting the outboard set
of (unused) rib holes would also make it less ambiguous (and save production
cost!).

CJ, I don't know if you have seen our project page (www.elite583.cjb.net) but I
am trying to document our project and in particular highlight some of the
subtitles in this project for those who follow. One of those is placement of
the wing ribs relative to the spar, after trying the method MAM describes in
their manual I set the spar up so the front face was facing up and aligned the
ribs between thick pieces of metal clamped to the flanges of the spar, this gave
us better alignment of the ribs because they were located on the top and bottom
relative to the spar. The photo on the web site probably explains it better. I
can go into more detail if you would like later.

Don't be shy about jumping in here, we don't have a lot of Elite discussion here
(yet) but I am sure there are others lurking who are interested. I for one am
interested to hear how the flaps & ailerons went together, those are up next for
us after the wings. Any surprises or things to watch for? Let us know.

Cheers,

Dave

David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada
Elite 583.cjb.net



Jeffrey Steenson wrote:

Dear C.J.,

Dave Ricker probably has the freshest perspective on wing building right
now, but it doesn't sound right. My wings are out at the hanger, so I can't
check, but my recollection is that the spars were identical. The rib
flanges point the same way, so the left wing root is not flush. But I think
the pilot holes were the same. I think this may warrant a phone call to
Tech Support.

I'm a first-time builder too, and I actually found the wings quite enjoyable
to build. The manual shines at this part of the project!

Best wishes,
Jeffrey Steenson in ABQ, NM
Elite #714

----- Original Message -----
From: <Wodzk@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 8:43 AM
Subject: ELITE WING SPAR

I have been reading all of the good information on this network for a long
time but I have not been active in any of the dialog because I haven't had
anything to contribute. I am a first time builder with no prior

experience

so I have been trying to absorb all of the information coming my way.

I have completed my stabilizers, rudder, elevator, flaps, and ailerons so

I

have been at for quite a while. I have a problem now that I can't figure
out. I am starting on my wings but I haven't made much progress because I
cannot determine which end of my main spars is the root end.

Both ends of my spars are drilled for the extra nose rib between the first
two main ribs and each end of the spars has a pilot hole for mounting the
main spar doubler (W603) for the lift strut. The only difference is that

the

first set of pilot holes for mounting a rib is spaced approx 1/2" farther
from the end of the spar than the first set of holes are spaced from the
opposite end. The pilot hole for the strut attach spar doubler is also
approx 1/2" farther from one end of the spar than its corresponding hole

is

from the opposite end.

It appears to me that this is a critical question. Selecting one end of

the

spar for the root end will space the wing skin and the strut attach 1/2"
farther from the fuselage than if I would use the opposite end. Which is
correct?

Has anyone else had this problem? Any suggestions? Any help will be

greatly

appreciated.

CJ Larsen
#584E

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Thanks for the quick response Dave. We are located in Owasso, OK (near
Tulsa). I looked at the figure you referred to and you are right that it
doesn't show the spar extending beyond the root rib. I had noticed this too,
but felt that I wanted confirmation from someone who knew more about it. It
seems to me that the parts could better designated to eliminate some of the
confusion. By the way, in my latest manual on CD, the page with figure
8.20.1 is dated 12/99.

In response to your question about the flaps and ailerons the only thing that
you might check out closely is the length of the main ribs. The manual gives
you the length the ribs should be trimmed to but my experience with the first
couple I trimmed, the edge distance for the last rivet at the trailing edge
was "less that desirable." You may consider making them about 1/8" longer
than the manual shows and fit the spar/rib assembly into the skin before you
rivet anything. You can always remove the extra length if you wish. Going
the other direction is more difficult.

Thanks again,
Clarence Larsen
#584E



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Hi Clarence

Don't blame you for wanting to double check against the manual, you can't always
take it for the gospel.

By the way, about the rev. date of the manual, there is an update on the MAM site
that gives most of Chapter 8 starting at section 8.13-11 which is dated 5 June
2002 so this might be worth adding to your files. I think this was about when
they switched to dating all of the pages of a new release the same as the release
date so pages with no changes receive new dates along with those which are
revised.

Thanks for the heads up on the Flap & El ribs, we will look out for those, did it
make any difference in the way the ribs fit in the skin such as bulges where the
ribs are?

Thanks

Dave R.
Francine D.
Elite583.cjb.net


Wodzk@aol.com wrote:

Thanks for the quick response Dave. We are located in Owasso, OK (near
Tulsa). I looked at the figure you referred to and you are right that it
doesn't show the spar extending beyond the root rib. I had noticed this too,
but felt that I wanted confirmation from someone who knew more about it. It
seems to me that the parts could better designated to eliminate some of the
confusion. By the way, in my latest manual on CD, the page with figure
8.20.1 is dated 12/99.

In response to your question about the flaps and ailerons the only thing that
you might check out closely is the length of the main ribs. The manual gives
you the length the ribs should be trimmed to but my experience with the first
couple I trimmed, the edge distance for the last rivet at the trailing edge
was "less that desirable." You may consider making them about 1/8" longer
than the manual shows and fit the spar/rib assembly into the skin before you
rivet anything. You can always remove the extra length if you wish. Going
the other direction is more difficult.

Thanks again,
Clarence Larsen
#584E

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--
David A. Ricker P. Eng.
DARTEC Engineering Inc.
3 Tamarac Drive
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada, B2T 1E8
ricker@dbis.ns.ca
Ph. 902-860-0256





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Dave,

I didn't have a problem with bulges, Etc. The main ribs do not extend all
the way to the trailing edge of the skin. There is a gap. The first couple
I cut to the length given in the manual seemed too short. The edge distance
on the last rivet close to the trailing edge was a little slim. You can
cleco a couple of main ribs to the spar, (one at each end) mark the location
for the holes in the bottom flange that positions the skin, line everything
up and see what you think. Look to see how far the ribs extend into the
trailing edge of the skin.

I am not good with computers. I have to rely on MAM mailing new instructions
when they think I must need them. I can't find my way around the MAM
website, and after a short time my computer locks up. About once a year, I
purchase a new manual on CD.

Back to the spar issue. -- You are most likely correct about how to determine
the root end but I am still a little hesitant to go ahead. The figure you
called my attention to was drawn to detail something else. It may not have
been intended to be the instruction for identifying the root end of the
spars. I have had similar questions in the past and used the drawings to
figure it out but the wing is a larger project. MAM could do a better job.

Thanks again,
CJ Larsen
Owasso, OK
#584E



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Hi Clarence

Thanks for the info on the flap, like many things in this kit it sounds like you
need to look at it and figure out what the design intent is then proceed
accordingly rather then blindly follow the instructions.

On the wing spar thing, you are right, you should decide for yourself that you
have enough info & that you are doing what is correct. If you want to have a
look at that part of our wing then go to www.elite583.cjb.net and in the left
side menu click wings then scroll down the wings section, you will see a couple
of photos that show the spar relative to the root rib for our right wing. Click
the small photo and a larger one will come up and you can see what we have done
in any case.

The web page should work OK since I have not used any of the "wonderful" HTML
enhancement that Bob P. likes so much and that give some browsers so much trouble
(hi Bob :^0), I believe in making it simple so just about any browser and
certainly any version 4.x browser will not have problems with it.

Keep us posted,

Dave R.
Francine D.
Elite583.cjb.net



Wodzk@aol.com wrote:

Dave,

I didn't have a problem with bulges, Etc. The main ribs do not extend all
the way to the trailing edge of the skin. There is a gap. The first couple
I cut to the length given in the manual seemed too short. The edge distance
on the last rivet close to the trailing edge was a little slim. You can
cleco a couple of main ribs to the spar, (one at each end) mark the location
for the holes in the bottom flange that positions the skin, line everything
up and see what you think. Look to see how far the ribs extend into the
trailing edge of the skin.

I am not good with computers. I have to rely on MAM mailing new instructions
when they think I must need them. I can't find my way around the MAM
website, and after a short time my computer locks up. About once a year, I
purchase a new manual on CD.

Back to the spar issue. -- You are most likely correct about how to determine
the root end but I am still a little hesitant to go ahead. The figure you
called my attention to was drawn to detail something else. It may not have
been intended to be the instruction for identifying the root end of the
spars. I have had similar questions in the past and used the drawings to
figure it out but the wing is a larger project. MAM could do a better job.

Thanks again,
CJ Larsen
Owasso, OK
#584E

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--
David A. Ricker
Fall River, Nova Scotia
Canada




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