The Murphy Builders Site

I am considering buying the tail kit for a moose and starting the contruction. I am doing this not only because of cash but limited space. Has anyone just bought the tail kit? How much room do you think I need to get it done? I am hoping I can do alot of building in my basement. Is it worth the extra to get the fast build? I was planning on standard tail kit then fast build wings and fus. Does anyone have a tools list already put together that you could email me? Thanks, Brad

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Hi Brad,
Several customers have done just as you intend....build the tailfeathers to get some sheet metal experience with our type of construction, while they wait for the rest of the airframe in quick build form. This, in my opinion, is the best way to go.
Our deluxe tool kit is fine to get you going with the tail feathers, but you will have to add to it for the rest of the aircraft.(check the tool kits out on our web site...www.murphyair.com)
Both Avery Tools, and US Air Tools carry every imaginary sheet metal tool available.
A basement is more than adequate for the tail section.
You might want to look at one of our builders web sites....they are very honest in the building experience of a Fast Build Moose:
http://www.forge-industrial.com/CGAS

Regards,
Brian Godden

Murphy Aircraft Mfg. Ltd.
bgodden@murphyair.com (bgodden@murphyair.com)

----- Original Message -----
From: Nielsenbe@aol.com (Nielsenbe@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:10 AM
Subject: partial kit construction


I am considering buying the tail kit for a moose and starting the contruction. I am doing this not only because of cash but limited space. Has anyone just bought the tail kit? How much room do you think I need to get it done? I am hoping I can do alot of building in my basement. Is it worth the extra to get the fast build? I was planning on standard tail kit then fast build wings and fus. Does anyone have a tools list already put together that you could email me? Thanks, Brad

Hi Brad,
I am building an Elite (considerably smaller than a Moose) in a 1-car garage (10 ft X 20 ft). Because of the limited space I am building one sub-kit at a time. As the subassemblies are built, they will be stored in the attic, which is open to the garage. Parts that are waiting for assembly are stored in the shipping box on two wheeled dollys beneath the workbench. When I need to get at the parts, I open the garage door and roll the shipping box out. I have completed the horizontal stabilizer (except for the fiberglass tips) and plan to skin the elevator next week.

The 4 ft X 16 ft workbench takes most of the garage, so there isn't much room for tool storage and manuvering. Everything takes careful planning. It isn't an ideal workspace, but it's the best that I have. I believe that I can build the fuselage in the garage, but the garage isn't long enough to mount an engine. At that point I will have to buy or rent a hangar. The nearest airport that is friendly to homebuilders is 30 miles away and requires US$1.60 in highway tolls for the round trip.

The best of luck to you. You will need it.
--
Roger Cole <rcole927@earthlink.net>
Elite 709


----------
From: Nielsenbe@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: partial kit construction
Date: Fri, Jan 3, 2003, 1:10 PM

I am considering buying the tail kit for a moose and starting the contruction. I am doing this not only because of cash but limited space. Has anyone just bought the tail kit? How much room do you think I need to get it done? I am hoping I can do alot of building in my basement. Is it worth the extra to get the fast build? I was planning on standard tail kit then fast build wings and fus. Does anyone have a tools list already put together that you could email me? Thanks, Brad

Hello Brad:

Seems we have about the same spacious work area to build our dream machines.Just a tip if it helps. When working with the skins you can roll them up after drilling on the ribs and store it on the floor. Doesn't take up to much space.Be careful when rolling that you don't get a kink in it.Don't roll it to tight either, about a 2' diameter seemed to work well for me.Also watch that you don't scratch the skin before deburring.

Welcome and GOOD LUCK

Murray Cherkas
REBEL 505

Roger

I would suggest that you might try to find a temporary work space closer if possible.
It seems that for every minute that you have to travel , it adds a week to the project

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Roger Cole
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 8:53 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: partial kit construction


Hi Brad,
I am building an Elite (considerably smaller than a Moose) in a 1-car garage (10 ft X 20 ft). Because of the limited space I am building one sub-kit at a time. As the subassemblies are built, they will be stored in the attic, which is open to the garage. Parts that are waiting for assembly are stored in the shipping box on two wheeled dollys beneath the workbench. When I need to get at the parts, I open the garage door and roll the shipping box out. I have completed the horizontal stabilizer (except for the fiberglass tips) and plan to skin the elevator next week.

The 4 ft X 16 ft workbench takes most of the garage, so there isn't much room for tool storage and manuvering. Everything takes careful planning. It isn't an ideal workspace, but it's the best that I have. I believe that I can build the fuselage in the garage, but the garage isn't long enough to mount an engine. At that point I will have to buy or rent a hangar. The nearest airport that is friendly to homebuilders is 30 miles away and requires US$1.60 in highway tolls for the round trip.

The best of luck to you. You will need it.
--
Roger Cole <rcole927@earthlink.net>
Elite 709


----------
From: Nielsenbe@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: partial kit construction
Date: Fri, Jan 3, 2003, 1:10 PM

I am considering buying the tail kit for a moose and starting the contruction. I am doing this not only because of cash but limited space. Has anyone just bought the tail kit? How much room do you think I need to get it done? I am hoping I can do alot of building in my basement. Is it worth the extra to get the fast build? I was planning on standard tail kit then fast build wings and fus. Does anyone have a tools list already put together that you could email me? Thanks, Brad

Thanks for the replies, How long do you think it will take to complete the tail? Is there any solid rivets in the tail? Do you think it's a better idea to get the quick build just to maybe get the benefit of factory alignment of everything? I definitely want the fast build fuselage because of all the solid rivets and time savings. I am undecided about the wings. They seem like a lot of riveting but nothing complicated so I might use the standard kit on those too. Murphy says the kits have alot of alignment holes punched/drilled at the factory. Could you guys give me a little more information on that? Is it in a state where you can cleco a couple holes and drill the rest or am I being too hopeful? I was sorta planning on three years to get the airframe done. I figured I could buy one kit a year. Is that realistic as far as time to build? Thanks again and again. &nb sp; Brad

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Hi Brad, we bought the tail kit and the fast build fuselage and wings. I
don't think getting the quick build tail will gain any alignment benefits.
It is pretty hard to mess it up with the pre punched alignment holes. No,
no solid rivets in the tail. Cleco it together and drill? Well, sort of.
All the spars and ribs have pre punched alignment holes where they attach
together. The skins have most of the holes pre punched that you use as a
guide to drill into the ribs. All of the pre punched holes are #40 so you
drill everything to #40 first then later drill them out to #30. Some have
suggested speeding things up by just drilling out to #30 right away, however
it is not recommended as the bit my wander and some alignment may/will be
lost.

It took us approximately 66 hours to build the elevator, 65 to build the
stabilizer and 45 to build the rudder (with additional trim tab). The
vertical fin is part of the fast build fuselage. Here is a web site that
has some pictures showing the size of the tail kit box and construction of
the elevator, stab and rudder. http://www.mdog.8m.com/ The web hosting was
free so it has banner ads and it now has a billion pop up adds that you will
have to kill. I hate them and have abandoned that site so there is no
update.

When I was at your stage I posted the question about which quick build,
wings or fuselage to buy, if I could only afford one.
Everyone who responded said to buy BOTH. They were right.

Times will vary from builder to builder but we completed our fast build
wings in less than two weeks or 110 hours of build time. That includes the
ailerons and flaps. Only wing tips to finish up.

The fast build fuselage is going much, much slower but that is because of
the modifications we're making.

We are building it all in a 20' by 26' garage. We will have to move to a
hanger next summer to put it all together. You don't need too much room for
just the tail, I think the tail span is around 11 feet.

If you want more tail building pictures send me an email off the list and
I'll send them.

Take care,
Scott Aldrich
Moose#174, M14P



-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 11:39 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: partial kit construction


Thanks for the replies, How long do you think it will take to complete the
tail? Is there any solid rivets in the tail? Do you think it's a better idea
to get the quick build just to maybe get the benefit of factory alignment of
everything? I definitely want the fast build fuselage because of all the
solid rivets and time savings. I am undecided about the wings. They seem
like a lot of riveting but nothing complicated so I might use the standard
kit on those too. Murphy says the kits have alot of alignment holes
punched/drilled at the factory. Could you guys give me a little more
information on that? Is it in a state where you can cleco a couple holes and
drill the rest or am I being too hopeful? I was sorta planning on three
years to get the airframe done. I figured I could buy one kit a year. Is
that realistic as far as time to build? Thanks again and again. Brad





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Hi Roger
I think that you should be able to hang your engine in your garage if you
can arrange things so that you have the entire 20' to work with. The specs
give rebel lenghth as 21'4" so without the rudder or prop it should fit. I
did all the final assembly of my plane in the back yard.
Drew

At 07:52 PM 1/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:

Hi Brad,
I have completed the horizontal stabilizer (except for the fiberglass
tips) and plan to skin the elevator next week.

The nearest airport that is friendly to homebuilders is 30 miles away
and requires US$1.60 in highway tolls for the round trip.

You will need it.
--
<>
Elite 709


----------
From: Nielsenbe@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: partial kit construction
Date: Fri, Jan 3, 2003, 1:10 PM

I am considering buying the tail kit for a moose and starting the
contruction. I am doing this not only because of cash but limited space.
Has anyone just bought the tail kit? How much room do you think I need to
get it done? I am hoping I can do alot of building in my basement. Is it
worth the extra to get the fast build? I was planning on standard tail
kit then fast build wings and fus. Does anyone have a tools list already
put together that you could email me? Thanks, Brad

-----------------------------------------------------





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Brad,
Unless you have lots of experience building airplanes figure 5+ years to build a moose from a kit. The building process has a life of its own. Nothing is very difficult to do or understand, but nothing is easy and not without lots of thought and consideration.
There are some who are pilots and there are some who are builders, most of us are somewhere in between. If you can know or can understand where you fit on the scale it helps with the decision making process of kit vs. fastbuild.
I loved the building process but after five years enough is enough for me.
Have fun and good luck,
Al
Moose N526AP
----- Original Message -----

From: Nielsenbe@aol.com (Nielsenbe@aol.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: partial kit construction


Thanks for the replies, How long do you think it will take to complete the tail? Is there any solid rivets in the tail? Do you think it's a better idea to get the quick build just to maybe get the benefit of factory alignment of everything? I definitely want the fast build fuselage because of all the solid rivets and time savings. I am undecided about the wings. They seem like a lot of riveting but nothing complicated so I might use the standard kit on those too. Murphy says the kits have alot of alignment holes punched/drilled at the factory. Could you guys give me a little more information on that? Is it in a state where you can cleco a couple holes and drill the rest or am I being too hopeful? I was sorta planning on three years to get the airframe done. I figured I could buy one kit a year. Is that realistic as far as time to build? Thanks again and again. Brad

Seems like the tailfeathers only took 1-3 good work days per major part to complete. The tailfeathers were very easy. I would not spend money on a fast-build for this section. The ailerons and flaps are just as easy. And the manual is pretty good for these sections. Just follow each step like a cookbook. But if I could afford it, I would definitely get the fast-build for the wings and fuselage. The manual seems to get worse and worse as you move into the more complicated sections. Makes sense since these are more complicated sections. The mere fact that the wing tanks are sealed and tested at the factory makes it worth the extra money in my mind. And the dang shims to keep the ribs lined up with varying spar thicknesses were a pain. There is only one place were solid rivets are used. That is in the main wing spars. If you can get your hands on a rivet squeezer with a deep throat, that is the way to "buck" the rivets in this area. You'll get near perfect bucks on all rivets that way. If you are going to buck the main spar rivets the old fashioned way, make sure you use a big, heavy bucking bar. The long, 3/16 rivets don't buck well with a light bar. I did it the old fashioned way and had a fair amount of difficulty. My buddy did it with a squeezer and all his rivets look near perfect.

Nearly all parts of the construction entail prepunched assemblies with alignment holes in place. Noticeable exceptions are all the fuselage corner wraps. There are other bits here and there as well, but for the most part, the kit is in a state where you can cleco here and there and drill the rest. Sometimes, you get to prepare the pilot holes yourself, but that often just entails drilling one hole on each end of a line, laying out a rivet spacing (get yourself an expanding rivet spacing tool!) and then drilling the rest of the holes, clecoing as you go.

A personal observation of mine, (and my building buddy tends to agree), has always been that the premise of obtaining and building the tailfeathers to get an idea of what's entailed to complete the project doesn't really come close. The tailfeathers were much easier to build than the wings and fuselage. I felt that building the tailfeathers first gave me a false sense of how easy the rest would be. But don't get me wrong. Anyone with determination can do it.

Three years is doable but you'll have work regularly and continuously. I have kept a comprehensive builder's log with time spent and I currently have about four years and 1600 hours in mine. All airframe parts are complete except the fuselage which needs the windshield fairing, installation of the side windows, and bolting the gear on. Then I still have wing mounting including lift strut assembly, final flap and aileron fitting and adjustment, and fairings, fairings, and more fairings. Then, there's still firewall forward, instruments and avionics, and painting. I figure that AFTER the entire airframe is complete, I still have a couple of years to go before I am flying. Of course, work virtually stops during the summers for fishing, camping, and boating, and I work full time. Do the math. This is not a kit put together in a few hundred hours. As an indication of what's possible, my buddy is a bit ahead of me and only has two years in his. But he lives in his shop. 18 hour days working on the project is normal for him. I peter out at about 8 hours a day, max.

Mike Kimball
SR #044

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Nielsenbe@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 9:39 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: partial kit construction


Thanks for the replies, How long do you think it will take to complete the tail? Is there any solid rivets in the tail? Do you think it's a better idea to get the quick build just to maybe get the benefit of factory alignment of everything? I definitely want the fast build fuselage because of all the solid rivets and time savings. I am undecided about the wings. They seem like a lot of riveting but nothing complicated so I might use the standard kit on those too. Murphy says the kits have alot of alignment holes punched/drilled at the factory. Could you guys give me a little more information on that? Is it in a state where you can cleco a couple holes and drill the rest or am I being too hopeful? I was sorta planning on three years to get the airframe done. I figured I could buy one kit a year. Is that realistic as far as time to build? Thanks again and again. Brad

Roger,
I really appreciate your last line. My standard closing line for several
years now has been "Good luck, you'll need it". I'm glad to see that I am not
alone. You will also need a great deal of perserverance.

Others,
Thanks for the info about using the 1 1/2 prop spacer. I thought I had
previously read about someone doing that. I too have the Sensenich. I have
posted 3 pictures of the gascolator/ lower firewall area before I take the
engine off again. Just so that I will know how to hook things up again. Most
of today was spent shoveling out of the 14" of snow from last night so the
Rebel sits for another day. Someone wrote about getting ready to mount their
battery. Take note of my previous message regarding mounting the battery on
the left (pilot) side and the oil cooler on the right. My standard rebel has
an O-320-E2D with Sensenich prop and firewall cut back. The battery is
mounted on the right side in the engine compartment, There is also another
battery mounted in the cabin behind the engine side battery. The batteries
are the Oddesey PC680 with the metal jacket. I don't think I will have CG
problems but if I need weight in back I will mount a dedicated tool set in
the rear. Good night.
Good luck, you'll need it,
Rick D.
Rebel S/N 404R (I am going to start cutting and fitting the baffles tomorrow
before I pull off the engine, I hope!)

On 1/4/03 4:38 PM, RCOLE927@EARTHLINK.NET wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

-> > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not
understand
-> this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
->
-> --MS_Mac_OE_3124468371_238070_MIME_Part
-> Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
-> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
->
-> Hi Brad,
-> I am building an Elite (considerably smaller than a Moose) in a 1-car
garage
-> (10 ft X 20 ft). Because of the limited space I am building one sub-kit at
-> a time. As the subassemblies are built, they will be stored in the attic,
-> which is open to the garage. Parts that are waiting for assembly are
stored
-> in the shipping box on two wheeled dollys beneath the workbench. When I
-> need to get at the parts, I open the garage door and roll the shipping box
-> out. I have completed the horizontal stabilizer (except for the
fiberglass
-> tips) and plan to skin the elevator next week.
->
-> The 4 ft X 16 ft workbench takes most of the garage, so there isn't much
-> room for tool storage and manuvering. Everything takes careful planning.
-> It isn't an ideal workspace, but it's the best that I have. I believe that
-> I can build the fuselage in the garage, but the garage isn't long enough to
-> mount an engine. At that point I will have to buy or rent a hangar. The
-> nearest airport that is friendly to homebuilders is 30 miles away and
-> requires US$1.60 in highway tolls for the round trip.
->
-> The best of luck to you. You will need it.
-> --
-> Roger Cole <rcole927@earthlink.net>
-> Elite 709
->
->
-> ----------




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Hi Brad,
How long it takes to build depends a lot on your personal situation. I lost 6 months of construction time when my employer required me to work 10-12 hr/day, 6-7 days/week. Also, I expected that when my kids entered college there would be more time. Wrong! The swimming & diving meets that were in the next suburb now require 8 hours of driving each way. My emphasis is on doing things carefully rather than fast, and I am not planning to use fast-build kits. If you are single and have an understanding employer, you could probably build a kit per year. Don't forget that after the airframe is built, you will have to install an engine, instruments, electrical system, etc.

On the Elite there are no solid rivets required for the tailkit. However, I am putting nutplates under the inspection covers. This seemingly minor modification takes a surprising amount of time, but I don't want to drill out rivets so I can do each annual condition inspection. I am using 3/32 solid rivets for the nutplates although 3/32 pulled rivets are available.

I haven't found alignment to be difficult. The pre-punched holes (#40) are a big help here (Thanks Murphy). Before I do anything that requires alignment, I check the leveling of my workbench with an electronic level accurate to +/- 0.1 deg. I carefully drew a line with an ultrafine-tip Sharpie pen on the center of each end rib. Then with the part resting on 2X4s per Murphy's instructions I measure the distance from the workbench to the centerline with a combination square. Wood wedges (the type used by carpenters for shimming doorways and window frames) under the trailing edge of the part adjust the leveling of each end. Plastic milk jugs filled with sand keep the part in contact with its supports. When everything is in alignment and clecoed (you need lots of clecos in 3/32 and 1/8 sizes), the holes are drilled out to #30. I am confident that this leveling procedure is accurate, but the proof will be when the airplane flys.

I hope this answers your questions. I have found the hours that I have spent working in the garage have been very pleasant and educational.

Regards,
--
Roger Cole <rcole927@earthlink.net>
Elite 709


----------
From: Nielsenbe@aol.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: partial kit construction
Date: Sat, Jan 4, 2003, 12:38 AM

Thanks for the replies, How long do you think it will take to complete the tail? Is there any solid rivets in the tail? Do you think it's a better idea to get the quick build just to maybe get the benefit of factory alignment of everything? I definitely want the fast build fuselage because of all the solid rivets and time savings. I am undecided about the wings. They seem like a lot of riveting but nothing complicated so I might use the standard kit on those too. Murphy says the kits have alot of alignment holes punched/drilled at the factory. Could you guys give me a little more information on that? Is it in a state where you can cleco a couple holes and drill the rest or am I being too hopeful? I was sorta planning on three years to get the airframe done. I figured I could buy one kit a year. Is that realistic as far as time to build? Thanks again and again. Brad