The Murphy Builders Site

I suspect that I could get this answer, with a bit of research in the manual, but can you guys confirm that MAM recommends 1/2" tubing for all fuel lines on the M14-P Moose?

I seem to remember 1/4" FPT on the strainer outlets. I've gotta take another look at these, to confirm, but by the time I put an adapter into such, there's gonna be a heck of a lot more restriction than would be offered by 3/8" tubing.

Bill Delcambre
SR 172FB

Hi Bill,
MAM is using 3/8" down the inside of the rear door posts and then they tee together and come out of the tee using 1/2 inch. I plan to add a header tank.

Scott

-----Original Message-----
From: mike.davis@dcsol.com [mailto:mike.davis@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Bill Delcambre
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:33 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Fuel line size


I suspect that I could get this answer, with a bit of research in the manual, but can you guys confirm that MAM recommends 1/2" tubing for all fuel lines on the M14-P Moose?

I seem to remember 1/4" FPT on the strainer outlets. I've gotta take another look at these, to confirm, but by the time I put an adapter into such, there's gonna be a heck of a lot more restriction than would be offered by 3/8" tubing.

Bill Delcambre
SR 172FB

I am building a moose and will be using a IO-540 300Hp Lycoming.
Is the 3/8" fuel line supplied large enough for this engine or should I be
running 1/2". Being an injected engine and with a backup electric fuel pump I
feel 3/8" will be enough but looking to see what others are using???
Gerry Halsall
Grasswood SK
gerry_halsall@shaw.ca


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FWIW, I built a Glasair with a Continental IO520D (300 h.p. @ 2850) and used
3/8" tubing with no problem. Bear in mind that this is a low wing, using an
engine with a constant bypass return fuel injection system (meaning that
more fuel is flowing to the engine than it actually uses, as opposed to the
Bendix system on the Lycoming). In the 11 years that I've flown the
Glasair, never a problem, although my eyes were glued to the fuel pressure
gauge on takeoff until I got comfortable that the system worked fine. I'm
gonna use the 3/8" for the M14-P in my Moose. Whatever makes you feel good.

Bill Delcambre
Lafayette, LA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter & Monica" <capete@golden.net>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: Fuel Line Size

Good Choice! We are also using a IO-540 300 HP Lyc. engine and decided on
1/2" fuel line - it's cheap insurance.

BTW what model engine are you using? We have IO-540 K1G5D.

Peter & Monica
SR003

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 9:48 PM
Subject: Fuel Line Size

I am building a moose and will be using a IO-540 300Hp Lycoming.
Is the 3/8" fuel line supplied large enough for this engine or should I

be

running 1/2". Being an injected engine and with a backup electric fuel

pump I

feel 3/8" will be enough but looking to see what others are using???
Gerry Halsall
Grasswood SK
gerry_halsall@shaw.ca

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Good Choice! We are also using a IO-540 300 HP Lyc. engine and decided on
1/2" fuel line - it's cheap insurance.

BTW what model engine are you using? We have IO-540 K1G5D.

Peter & Monica
SR003

----- Original Message -----
From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 9:48 PM
Subject: Fuel Line Size

I am building a moose and will be using a IO-540 300Hp Lycoming.
Is the 3/8" fuel line supplied large enough for this engine or should I be
running 1/2". Being an injected engine and with a backup electric fuel

pump I

feel 3/8" will be enough but looking to see what others are using???
Gerry Halsall
Grasswood SK
gerry_halsall@shaw.ca

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On 2/10/03 3:21 PM, CAPETE@GOLDEN.NET wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
Thanks everyone , I think I will put in the 1/2" line as you say for piece of
mind. My engine will probably be a IO540 L1C5
Gerry
-> From <capete@golden.net> Mon, 10 Feb 2003 05:14:46 -0900 remote from
dcsol.com
-> Received: by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP Router v5.6.450.6)
-> for murphy-rebel@dcsol.com; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 05:14:46 -0900
-> Received: from niobium.golden.net ([199.166.210.90]) EHLO=niobium.golden.net
-> by dcsol.com (Wildcat! SMTP v5.6.450.6) with SMTP
-> id 23370671; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 05:14:44 -0900
-> Received: from r2d2 (AS53-01-92.cas-gue.golden.net [207.35.144.92])
-> by niobium.golden.net (8.11.6/8.10.1) with SMTP id h1AEEgJ08554
-> for <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>; Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:14:43 -0500 (EST)
-> Message-ID: <001501c2d10e$c2922460$528dfea9@r2d2>
-> From: "Peter & Monica" <capete@golden.net>
-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> References: <1044845337@dcsol.com>
-> Subject: Re: Fuel Line Size
-> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003 09:14:42 -0500
-> X-Orig-MIME-Version: 1.0
-> X-Orig-Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
-> X-Orig-Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-> X-Priority: 3
-> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
-> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
-> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4910.0300
->
-> Good Choice! We are also using a IO-540 300 HP Lyc. engine and decided on
-> 1/2" fuel line - it's cheap insurance.
->
-> BTW what model engine are you using? We have IO-540 K1G5D.
->
-> Peter & Monica
-> SR003
->
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> From: <rebel@dcsol.com>
-> To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
-> Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 9:48 PM
-> Subject: Fuel Line Size
->
->
-> > I am building a moose and will be using a IO-540 300Hp Lycoming.
-> > Is the 3/8" fuel line supplied large enough for this engine or should I be
-> > running 1/2". Being an injected engine and with a backup electric fuel
-> pump I
-> > feel 3/8" will be enough but looking to see what others are using???
-> > Gerry Halsall
-> > Grasswood SK
-> > gerry_halsall@shaw.ca
-> >
-> >
-> >
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-> > To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> >
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-> >
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If I remember correctly a 3/8" line will gravity flow about 25gal/hr if
there's no restrictions. you need at least 150% of your maximum fuel burn.
So if your using anything near 16gal/hr you should probably change to
1/2"lines. The M14p instalation in a Pitts model 12 uses 1/2" line.
Drew
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Drew and group,

The Pitts model 12 uses 3/8" fuel lines not 1/2" as you posted. Likewise,
the Sukhoi and some other Russian aircraft use a metric line that is approx
3/8" in size. One important thing to keep in mind when sizing the fuel lines
for an M14P is that the carb is a pressure carb not a gravity unit. It will
not run on simple gravity feed of the fuel as it requires 4 to 7 PSI to
function. So, the 1/2" fuel line size will not produce a great benefit above
what is possible with the 3/8" line. MAM has specified 1/2" fuel lines on
the Moose in part to meet a Canadian requirement and we have developed a
fitting kit for the moose for MAM with these -8 fittings in it.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone, 407-889-7168 fax
<A HREF="www.jimkimballenterprises.com">www.jimkimballenterprises.com</A>




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These remarks are for a pressure system only. My Moose is over 330 hp, and
3/8" fuel line are working fine. As flight tested, the boost pump is not
required for normal operations. I use it for starting and for just in case.
I don't have the exact numbers any longer but my fuel system test ran 46 or
47 gal per hour through 3/8" lines.
Another thought is if your planning a fuel flow system the one I have has a
1/4" ID.
Al
Amphib Moose, N526AP
----- Original Message -----
From: <KJKimball@aol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: Fuel Line Size

In a message dated 2/11/2003 6:05:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
monty@emirates.net.ae writes:

Will running 1/2" fuel lines nessitate a different size tank outlet and
finger strainer?

I am not sure about this. The only finger strainers I see in the ACS

catalog

are made to fit in a 3/8" pipe tank outlet and have a 1/4" pipe female

hole

to accept the fitting. Standard AN fittings are made with -6 having 1/4"
pipe and -8 having 3/8" pipe. So, if standard fittings are used, you will
have to find larger 1/2" to 3/8" finger strainers and have 1/2" bungs in

the

tanks. Or, leave out the strainers and go straight to the -8 x3/8" AN
fittings. Some of the race car plumbing manufacturers have odd fittings
available such as -8 flair to 1/4" pipe so you can fit the 1/2" line to

the

smaller finger strainer in this example. However, that will result in

a -6

size hole in that odd fitting which will result in a flow capability that

is

less than all -8. Also, if you use -8 lines, you will need to have a
gascolator and boost pump etc. to maintain flow. Another items to

consider

is the size of the fuel flow transducer. The unit that is capable of

flowing

50+ gal per hour has a hole through it about the same as the ID of 3/8"

line.

I am not sure if a larger unit is available as this unit is the one used

for

PW 985 radials. I guess my point here is that there are many more

components

and systems available for a 3/8" fuel system than a 1/2" fuel system.
Especially with respect to homebuilt suppliers.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone, 407-889-7168 fax
<A HREF="www.jimkimballenterprises.com">www.jimkimballenterprises.com</A>

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I used 1/2" lines and modified an NPT to flared fitting by removing the
screens from the supplied fittings, and soldering them into my fittings. If
anyone is interested let me know and I'll supply the exact part numbers of
AN fittings.

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:00:45 0400 Warren Montgomery

<monty@emirates.net.ae> wrote.

Will running 1/2" fuel lines nessitate a different size tank outlet and
finger strainer?

KJKimball@aol.com wrote:

Drew and group,

The Pitts model 12 uses 3/8" fuel lines not 1/2" as you posted. Likewise,

the Sukhoi and some other Russian aircraft use a metric line that is

approx

3/8" in size. One important thing to keep in mind when sizing the fuel

lines

for an M14P is that the carb is a pressure carb not a gravity unit. It

will

not run on simple gravity feed of the fuel as it requires 4 to 7 PSI to
function. So, the 1/2" fuel line size will not produce a great benefit

above

what is possible with the 3/8" line. MAM has specified 1/2" fuel lines on

the Moose in part to meet a Canadian requirement and we have developed a
fitting kit for the moose for MAM with these -8 fittings in it.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone, 407-889-7168 fax
<A HREF="www.jimkimballenterprises.com">www.jimkimballenterprises.com</A>




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In a message dated 2/11/2003 6:05:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
monty@emirates.net.ae writes:

Will running 1/2" fuel lines nessitate a different size tank outlet and
finger strainer?

I am not sure about this. The only finger strainers I see in the ACS catalog
are made to fit in a 3/8" pipe tank outlet and have a 1/4" pipe female hole
to accept the fitting. Standard AN fittings are made with -6 having 1/4"
pipe and -8 having 3/8" pipe. So, if standard fittings are used, you will
have to find larger 1/2" to 3/8" finger strainers and have 1/2" bungs in the
tanks. Or, leave out the strainers and go straight to the -8 x3/8" AN
fittings. Some of the race car plumbing manufacturers have odd fittings
available such as -8 flair to 1/4" pipe so you can fit the 1/2" line to the
smaller finger strainer in this example. However, that will result in a -6
size hole in that odd fitting which will result in a flow capability that is
less than all -8. Also, if you use -8 lines, you will need to have a
gascolator and boost pump etc. to maintain flow. Another items to consider
is the size of the fuel flow transducer. The unit that is capable of flowing
50+ gal per hour has a hole through it about the same as the ID of 3/8" line.
I am not sure if a larger unit is available as this unit is the one used for
PW 985 radials. I guess my point here is that there are many more components
and systems available for a 3/8" fuel system than a 1/2" fuel system.
Especially with respect to homebuilt suppliers.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone, 407-889-7168 fax
<A HREF="www.jimkimballenterprises.com">www.jimkimballenterprises.com</A>



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Sorry my mistake I was going from my memory of Jeremy Mason's model 12.
C-GAIR Sadly it's been more than a year since his death and since then I
had few chances to look under the cowl of his plane.
Drew

At 09:11 PM 2/10/2003 EST, you wrote:

Drew and group,

The Pitts model 12 uses 3/8" fuel lines not 1/2" as you posted. Likewise,
the Sukhoi and some other Russian aircraft use a metric line that is approx
3/8" in size. One important thing to keep in mind when sizing the fuel

lines

for an M14P is that the carb is a pressure carb not a gravity unit. It will
not run on simple gravity feed of the fuel as it requires 4 to 7 PSI to
function. So, the 1/2" fuel line size will not produce a great benefit

above

what is possible with the 3/8" line. MAM has specified 1/2" fuel lines on
the Moose in part to meet a Canadian requirement and we have developed a
fitting kit for the moose for MAM with these -8 fittings in it.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone, 407-889-7168 fax
<A HREF="www.jimkimballenterprises.com">www.jimkimballenterprises.com</A>




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Will running 1/2" fuel lines nessitate a different size tank outlet and
finger strainer?

KJKimball@aol.com wrote:

Drew and group,

The Pitts model 12 uses 3/8" fuel lines not 1/2" as you posted. Likewise,
the Sukhoi and some other Russian aircraft use a metric line that is approx
3/8" in size. One important thing to keep in mind when sizing the fuel lines
for an M14P is that the carb is a pressure carb not a gravity unit. It will
not run on simple gravity feed of the fuel as it requires 4 to 7 PSI to
function. So, the 1/2" fuel line size will not produce a great benefit above
what is possible with the 3/8" line. MAM has specified 1/2" fuel lines on
the Moose in part to meet a Canadian requirement and we have developed a
fitting kit for the moose for MAM with these -8 fittings in it.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 phone, 407-889-7168 fax
<A HREF="www.jimkimballenterprises.com">www.jimkimballenterprises.com</A>




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