The Murphy Builders Site

Since the topic of engines came up, I have a question that I've been
wrestling over for some time now. I don't have to answer the question for
quite a while, but all this talk about engines....

Im thinking very seriously about building my Rebel as a US "Sport Plane".
Right now, that would mean that I would have to hold the gross weight under
1232lbs/555kg (although, it sounds like they are going to bump that up to
1300lbs/600kg roundabouts). Every other part of the Rebel complies with the
Sport Plane reg as it stands. As a matter of fact, I think the Rebel is
just about perfect as a "Sport Plane".

The way I see it, at this point, is that the plane would have to finish out
at around 700lbs/315kg.

What engine would you hang off the front of a Sport certified Rebel? I'm
leaning to 4 strokes. The Rotax 912 is the obvious choice, but there are a
couple drawbacks to that engine in my mind.

The one's I've looked at so far are:

Lycoming
Continental
Franklin 4 cyl converted to the 10.5-1 pistons
Rotax
Jabiru
Subaru conversion
Mazda conversion

Rob Luce





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Hi Rob !

We also think the Rebel is a perfect "Sportplane" - there are
already people building it to fly in that category !

ALL of the engines you looked at are too heavy, except the
Jabiru and the Rotax. The Jabiru has fixed early problems, but
experience here has shown the power output to be substantially less
than the Rotax in real life.

I'm curious about the "drawbacks" you see to the 912 ....

My choice would definitely be the Rotax 912 - there are
several Rebels flying with that engine, and, painted and upholstered,
they usually weigh in the 710 - 730 lb range. One important consideration
is to only build it with TWO bays in both fuel tanks - this still
gives enough fuel for over 10 hours flying, and it makes NO sense
to drag around 300 lb. of fuel !! And, of course, you wouldn't even THINK
of using the spring gear. Murphy can provide a complete, proven firewall-
forward package for the 912, making it the logical choice.

The 912 is well proven and extremely reliable, and gives good
performance. If you really want zip, go to the 912-S, with 100 hp. -
it's only a couple of pounds heavier. It does need care in mounting,
as there's more vibration, and the intake & exhaust systems are
trickier to get around the mounts, and you need more cooling.

I've flown 912-powered Rebels for over 11 years, and had
over 1,000 hours on Number 1 when I sold it last year. Just a GREAT engine -
total maintenance at that point was 4 sets of spark plugs and
2 air filters, plus the usual oil & filter changes every 50 hours.
We regularly flew with 2 people, full fuel, and LOTS of camping
gear, to Florida, the West Coast, and Oshkosh. One trip had 2 tents,
3 sleeping bags, 2 suitcases, 2 full knapsacks, a bag of tools,
a cooler bag of food & water, and 2 lawn chairs (!) - and the air temps
were mid-nineties !! Not too shabby at all for 80 hp !! I normally
saw 1,100+ FPM climb, solo in cool air, too ! It performed quite
well on Murphy 1500 straight floats, too, getting off in about 6 seconds
solo, and about 34 seconds with 2 of us aboard, and 3/4 fuel.
Climb with 2 aboard on floats was reduced to about 400 FPM - still
acceptable. Don't know what allowances for float weight will appear
in the sportplane category - doubt they've even though about THAT !




-----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 01:19 PM 11/3/02 -0600, you wrote:

Since the topic of engines came up, I have a question that I've been
wrestling over for some time now. I don't have to answer the question for
quite a while, but all this talk about engines....

Im thinking very seriously about building my Rebel as a US "Sport Plane".
Right now, that would mean that I would have to hold the gross weight under
1232lbs/555kg (although, it sounds like they are going to bump that up to
1300lbs/600kg roundabouts). Every other part of the Rebel complies with the
Sport Plane reg as it stands. As a matter of fact, I think the Rebel is
just about perfect as a "Sport Plane".

The way I see it, at this point, is that the plane would have to finish out
at around 700lbs/315kg.

What engine would you hang off the front of a Sport certified Rebel? I'm
leaning to 4 strokes. The Rotax 912 is the obvious choice, but there are a
couple drawbacks to that engine in my mind.

The one's I've looked at so far are:

Lycoming
Continental
Franklin 4 cyl converted to the 10.5-1 pistons
Rotax
Jabiru
Subaru conversion
Mazda conversion

Rob Luce



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In a message dated 11/3/02 1:20:32 PM Central Standard Time, rob@shepluce.com writes:

What engine would you hang off the front of a Sport certified Rebel?

ROB
The Mazda rotary is the lightest thing going. There is a good Rotary group some where out there. I think CowCam participates in. ( ALL ) convertions have some draw backs or problems to work through.
Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R

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Rob,

If you want to build a Rebel that light, I think you would be best off using the 912S. That's my opinion. It has the best weight to HP and is already a proven and dependable engine. Hard to beat.

You can always build the Rebel with any engine, even the 0320, and register it as a sport plane any way. It wouldn't have a lot of useful load on paper but we all know how much it will really carry, safely. I was tempted when I registered my Rebel in case I lost my medical.

Bruce 357R

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Rebel 0145R does all it's flying under 1250 lbs.
850 lb. airframe, 170 lb. pilot and 15-20 gallons of fuel
Climb solo in winter is 950-1050 fpm and mid summer down to 750 ftm
Cruise is 90mph @ 3750 engine RPM
115-120 mph @ 4400 RPM (never ran it faster than that yet)

So I will add my vote for the Subaru EA-81


On 11/3/02 5:03 PM, ROB@SHEPLUCE.COM wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

->
-> Since the topic of engines came up, I have a question that I've been
-> wrestling over for some time now. I don't have to answer the question for
-> quite a while, but all this talk about engines....
->
-> Im thinking very seriously about building my Rebel as a US "Sport Plane".
-> Right now, that would mean that I would have to hold the gross weight under
-> 1232lbs/555kg (although, it sounds like they are going to bump that up to
-> 1300lbs/600kg roundabouts). Every other part of the Rebel complies with the
-> Sport Plane reg as it stands. As a matter of fact, I think the Rebel is
-> just about perfect as a "Sport Plane".
->
-> The way I see it, at this point, is that the plane would have to finish out
-> at around 700lbs/315kg.
->
-> What engine would you hang off the front of a Sport certified Rebel? I'm
-> leaning to 4 strokes. The Rotax 912 is the obvious choice, but there are a
-> couple drawbacks to that engine in my mind.
->
-> The one's I've looked at so far are:
->
-> Lycoming
-> Continental
-> Franklin 4 cyl converted to the 10.5-1 pistons
-> Rotax
-> Jabiru
-> Subaru conversion
-> Mazda conversion
->
-> Rob Luce
->
->





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Glad you're having good luck with the EA-81 - performance sounds
great - BUT, it's an obsolete engine, no longer in production, so parts
will soon be a concern. Also, as Phil has indicated, there's no "off-the-shelf"
package - you're on your own for re-drive, mounts, etc., and all
those things can add years to build time. While you've done a
beautiful job with yours, I just couldn't recommend the EA-81 as a choice
to someone just building his tail section....

I do like the Subaru EJ-22 and EJ-25 - they're good engines,
but the installed weight comes near (or over) the O-320, and, with
my 230 lbs., I couldn't put ANY fuel in and be under 1,232 lb. !!! :-(

Heard from another builder up your way - he already has an
EA-81, and is almost finished building a Rebel. He was trying to find
your web site, and I couldn't remember the address. Could you
please post it again ??
Thanks !!
.....bobp

----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
At 05:13 PM 11/3/02 -0900, you wrote:

Rebel 0145R does all it's flying under 1250 lbs.
850 lb. airframe, 170 lb. pilot and 15-20 gallons of fuel
Climb solo in winter is 950-1050 fpm and mid summer down to 750 ftm
Cruise is 90mph @ 3750 engine RPM
115-120 mph @ 4400 RPM (never ran it faster than that yet)

So I will add my vote for the Subaru EA-81


On 11/3/02 5:03 PM, ROB@SHEPLUCE.COM wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

->
-> Since the topic of engines came up, I have a question that I've been
-> wrestling over for some time now. I don't have to answer the question for
-> quite a while, but all this talk about engines....
->
-> Im thinking very seriously about building my Rebel as a US "Sport Plane".
-> Right now, that would mean that I would have to hold the gross weight under
-> 1232lbs/555kg (although, it sounds like they are going to bump that up to
-> 1300lbs/600kg roundabouts). Every other part of the Rebel complies with the
-> Sport Plane reg as it stands. As a matter of fact, I think the Rebel is
-> just about perfect as a "Sport Plane".
->
-> The way I see it, at this point, is that the plane would have to finish out
-> at around 700lbs/315kg.
->
-> What engine would you hang off the front of a Sport certified Rebel? I'm
-> leaning to 4 strokes. The Rotax 912 is the obvious choice, but there are a
-> couple drawbacks to that engine in my mind.
->
-> The one's I've looked at so far are:
->
-> Lycoming
-> Continental
-> Franklin 4 cyl converted to the 10.5-1 pistons
-> Rotax
-> Jabiru
-> Subaru conversion
-> Mazda conversion
->
-> Rob Luce
->
->



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Dear Bob,
There is an off the shelf package for the EA-81; the Sub4 from New Zealand;
see either www.sub4.co.nz or their USA agent at www.ramengines.com. They
have a carburettor model rated at 115hp or an EFI model rated at 125hp as a
complete package with their own PSRU as well as engine mounts, dual ignition
system, s/s exhaust system etc.
As well you could easily fit a turbocharger from an EA-82 engine; it fits
directly to the EA-81.

Kind regards,
Greg. Gordon.







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In a message dated 11/3/02 10:04:41 PM Central Standard Time, bob.patterson@canrem.com writes:

Also, as Phil has indicated, there's no "off-the-shelf"
package - you're on your own for re-drive, mounts, etc., and all
those things can add years to build time.

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In a message dated 11/3/02 10:04:41 PM Central Standard Time, bob.patterson@canrem.com writes:

Also, as Phil has indicated, there's no "off-the-shelf"
package - you're on your own for re-drive, mounts, etc., and all
those things can add years to build time.

Actually Dave Bangles of SubieLyc has a complete firewall forward package for the Rebel. Because that's what he used as a test bed. Great guy too.
Sub-4 of OZ fame has some very good products it's put a lot of engineering into.
Sorry about the double post, time to clean the mouse again.
Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R

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Hi Phil !

I'm learning !! Just a bit of "forget-itis" !!! I know
that Stratus had a redrive setup for the EA-81, but no FWF for
the Rebel, and Dave Bangle has had an EJ-22 in his Rebel as long
as I've known him. I didn't know he had done anything with the
EA-81 ! It's VERY hard to find a <complete> package for any airplane.

You're the second one to tell me about SUB-4 - guess I should
dig into them a bit. My big gripe with the EA-81 is that it's only
80 hp, and is no longer in production. I just think for the bulk
and weight, you might as well get an EJ-25, and have some power !!
(I know there are folks <claiming> to get 115 hp from EA-81's,
but it involves a lot of tweaking, and sacrificing reliability -
the 2.5L Subaru is 165 HP "in the car" !)

I hope these new builders don't think I'm against all Subarus -
as you know, I've flown several Rebels with EJ-22's, and I LOVE THEM !!
They're quiet, smooth, and burn about 60% of the fuel of a Lycoming
at similar power outputs and speeds. That's in 'real-life' flying,
not 'textbook' theories !! (I'm not knocking doing your homework,
just saying that some engines don't produce the performance that
their 'paper' numbers would lead you to expect !)

I still stand by the position that the Rotax 912 is THE best
choice FOR THE SPORTPLANE CATEGORY - mostly because it offers by
far the lightest weight and a good service record. If you don't
care about weight, and want to fly amphibs, by all means, go for
the EJ-25 !! And the 6 cylinder, IMHO, would be a GREAT engine
for the Super Rebel/Moose, for those who are happy with fuel
economy and reliability, and aren't so worried about screaming
horsepower !

I do totally agree with you that ALL auto conversions have
some problems - anyone undertaking one has to accept that, and allow
for some extra "fiddling" time, whether it be fuel flow, or cooling,
or cowling, or prop, or exhaust ....
.... but it can be well worth the effort !

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.----------------------------------
At 08:59 AM 11/4/02 EST, you wrote:

In a message dated 11/3/02 10:04:41 PM Central Standard Time,
bob.patterson@canrem.com writes:

Also, as Phil has indicated, there's no "off-the-shelf"
package - you're on your own for re-drive, mounts, etc., and all
those things can add years to build time.

Actually Dave Bangles of SubieLyc has a complete firewall forward package for
the Rebel. Because that's what he used as a test bed. Great guy too.
Sub-4 of OZ fame has some very good products it's put a lot of engineering
into.
Sorry about the double post, time to clean the mouse again.
Phil&Lisa Smith
N414D
#460R
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"

FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/3/02 10:04:41 PM Central
Standard Time, bob.patterson@canrem.com writes:<BR>

<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT:

5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Also, as Phil has indicated,
there's no "off-the-shelf"<BR>

package - you're on your own for re-drive, mounts, etc., and all<BR>
those things can add years to build time. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Actually Dave Bangles of SubieLyc has a complete firewall forward package

for the Rebel. Because that's what he used as a test bed. Great guy too.<BR>

Sub-4 of OZ fame has some very good products it's put a lot of engineering

into.<BR>

Sorry about the double post, time to clean the mouse again.<BR>
Phil&Lisa Smith<BR>
N414D<BR>
#460R</FONT></HTML>

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Hi Greg !

Thanks for the info ! I had trouble reading both sites - the
Ram pages were pretty much useless, but that's likely because I
use a NON-Micro$haft browser. ;-)

What I did see was impressive - SUB-4 have obviously done
a LOT of work "improving" the EA-81 !! It looks like they cast
their OWN cylinder heads, and supply custom forged pistons, SS valves,
and even custom valve springs. These are all things that can boost power
output. I DIDN'T find ANY indication that they supplied a <complete>
firewall-forward kit for the Rebel - mounts, cowling, radiator,
exhaust mounts, etc. - these are the things that builders say take
a LOT of time !

I guess, <for me>, one of the major appeals of a Subaru conversion
is being able to go to any auto parts store for parts, and any
mechanic for service - the SUB-4 would eliminate that. There have
been several 'hop-up' shops selling aircraft conversions of Subarus
here (North America) for many years - unfortunately, many "took the
money and ran", leaving builders with engines (if they were lucky!)
that didn't run, and that they couldn't get parts for !! This has
created an air of caution, unfortunately for the honest dealers.
I believe there are a few people in OZ who have sent money to NSI,
like some Canadian builders did, actually expecting to get an engine !!
NOT suggesting in any way that SUB-4 are like that - just that
prospects will be reserved, and want to see the engines flying
<here> before buying.

In any case, that's the great thing about homebuilding -
YOU get to make all the decisions, and YOU get to enjoy flying
the airplane !! :-)

.....bobp

--------------------------------orig.-----------------------------
At 04:16 AM 11/5/02 +1100, you wrote:

Dear Bob,
There is an off the shelf package for the EA-81; the Sub4 from New Zealand;
see either www.sub4.co.nz or their USA agent at www.ramengines.com. They
have a carburettor model rated at 115hp or an EFI model rated at 125hp as a
complete package with their own PSRU as well as engine mounts, dual ignition
system, s/s exhaust system etc.
As well you could easily fit a turbocharger from an EA-82 engine; it fits
directly to the EA-81.

Kind regards,
Greg. Gordon.





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Wow, did that ever get things going on the engine topic.

Bob,
In some ways you are very right.
I would not recommend the EA-81 for anyone who is not ready for that extra
year of tweaking! I approached it as a hobby but was also very lucky in that
everything worked out almost perfect the first time. Things like the mount,
muffler, dual ign and batts do take time to sort out. Most of the stuff, I
just bought of the self and bolted on.

I'm sure one ride in a 150+ HP Rebel would smart'in me up real quick, but I
really am quite happy with EA-81. It doesn't even seem like it's working at
3700 RPM, it just kinda purr's along.. I am not even using the full potential
of this engine. Keep in mind I operate off an 800 ft grass strip with trees on
both sides. After 90 Takeoffs and Landings, I still can't keep me eyes open!

If I were to do it again..... sure I would try the EJ-25, and you never know.
one day I might.

I would love the 912S, but I don't think I can afford one.

Oh, I will add one more quick note. For me this project was somewhat cost
sensitive, the EA-81 was the most affordable option at the time. I think I
probably have one of the least expensive "flying" Rebel's out there.

I will add the site too.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~farndt/

This site has been a great resource, great job everyone.


On 11/4/02 3:51 PM, BOB.PATTERSON@CANREM.COM wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:

->
-> Glad you're having good luck with the EA-81 - performance sounds
-> great - BUT, it's an obsolete engine, no longer in production, so parts
-> will soon be a concern. Also, as Phil has indicated, there's no "off-the-
shelf"
-> package - you're on your own for re-drive, mounts, etc., and all
-> those things can add years to build time. While you've done a
-> beautiful job with yours, I just couldn't recommend the EA-81 as a choice
-> to someone just building his tail section....
->
-> I do like the Subaru EJ-22 and EJ-25 - they're good engines,
-> but the installed weight comes near (or over) the O-320, and, with
-> my 230 lbs., I couldn't put ANY fuel in and be under 1,232 lb. !!! :-(
->
-> Heard from another builder up your way - he already has an
-> EA-81, and is almost finished building a Rebel. He was trying to find
-> your web site, and I couldn't remember the address. Could you
-> please post it again ??
-> Thanks !!
-> .....bobp
->
-> ----------------------------------orig.-------------------------------
-> At 05:13 PM 11/3/02 -0900, you wrote:
-> >Rebel 0145R does all it's flying under 1250 lbs.
-> >850 lb. airframe, 170 lb. pilot and 15-20 gallons of fuel
-> >Climb solo in winter is 950-1050 fpm and mid summer down to 750 ftm
-> >Cruise is 90mph @ 3750 engine RPM
-> >115-120 mph @ 4400 RPM (never ran it faster than that yet)
-> >
-> >So I will add my vote for the Subaru EA-81
-> >
-> >
-> >On 11/3/02 5:03 PM, ROB@SHEPLUCE.COM wrote to MURPHY-REBEL:
-> >
-> >->
-> >-> Since the topic of engines came up, I have a question that I've been
-> >-> wrestling over for some time now. I don't have to answer the question
for
-> >-> quite a while, but all this talk about engines....
-> >->
-> >-> Im thinking very seriously about building my Rebel as a US "Sport
Plane".
-> >-> Right now, that would mean that I would have to hold the gross weight
under
-> >-> 1232lbs/555kg (although, it sounds like they are going to bump that up
to
-> >-> 1300lbs/600kg roundabouts). Every other part of the Rebel complies
with the
-> >-> Sport Plane reg as it stands. As a matter of fact, I think the Rebel is
-> >-> just about perfect as a "Sport Plane".
-> >->
-> >-> The way I see it, at this point, is that the plane would have to finish
out
-> >-> at around 700lbs/315kg.
-> >->
-> >-> What engine would you hang off the front of a Sport certified Rebel?
I'm
-> >-> leaning to 4 strokes. The Rotax 912 is the obvious choice, but there
are a
-> >-> couple drawbacks to that engine in my mind.
-> >->
-> >-> The one's I've looked at so far are:
-> >->
-> >-> Lycoming
-> >-> Continental
-> >-> Franklin 4 cyl converted to the 10.5-1 pistons
-> >-> Rotax
-> >-> Jabiru
-> >-> Subaru conversion
-> >-> Mazda conversion
-> >->
-> >-> Rob Luce
-> >->
-> >->
-> >
-> >
-> >
-> >*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
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-> > Archives located at http://rebel:builder@www.dcsol.com:81/default.htm
-> > To contact the list admin, e-mail mike.davis@dcsol.com
-> >*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
-> >
-> >
->





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Dear Bob,
Attached is part of a reply from the Sub4 agent in Australia. Please note
that the Sub4 EFI is rated at 125hp+. The prices quoted are "aussie pesos".
This translates to US$8362 at our current exchange rates. So I suppose the
USA agent could do a similiar deal. I note that the USA agent has a stock
s/s exhaust system to suit

"The Sub4 EFI is $14800 +GST which includes everything apart from an exhaust
and engine frame. The Motor can be turbo but as it has not been done yet, we
are unable to offer our factory warranty. Engine mounts are included in the
price but not the engine frame, the frame can be manufactured to suit as
required. The Sub4 Bigger reduction box costs $4200 + GST and we offer
complete EJ25 motors rebuilt to aircraft specs including the Re-drive for
$14800 + GST. Again, engine mount systems can be made up to suit at any
time."

Thanks for your previous advice.


Kind regards,
Greg. Gordon.





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