The Murphy Builders Site

Hi Moose Builders !

I had a long chat with Brian Robinson yesterday - some of
you already know him as the craftsman who created a Corvette Conversion
for the SeaBee. He used an LS-1 for the prototype, and now does
the LS-6.

This is a complete package, with his own re-drive and engine
mounting package. It produces about 300 hp - he can give you 320 or
more, if needed. The package goes for about $45k - not too bad, when
you consider Brian uses only BRAND-NEW engines, fresh from GM !

Anyway, it seems that there will be a delay getting approval
for this conversion for SeaBees in the U.S. - government !! :-(
And there aren't enough SeaBees in Canada to keep him busy,

Sooooooo .......

Brian would like to talk to some Moose builders about using
his bolt-on package !! This is not pie-in-the-sky dreaming - he has
flown his own SeaBee for OVER 650 trouble-free hours, and another
nearby 'Bee already has 75 hours on it !!! The performance is
INCREDIBLE - keeps up to Cubs !! And he has the added advantage of
using the automotive AIR CONDITIONING and heating systems !! :-)
(Not to mention the fuel economy - from about 8.5 to 13 gph,
of auto fuel !)

To proceed, Brian would like to know where the C of G is
- of the engine and mount only ---- (not the whole aircraft) --
(inches from firewall), on mounted M-14P's, AND Lyc. O-540's ----
anybody out there got an engine & mount who can give him a number ???
He would also like to know the REAL weights of these engines -
seems the factory specs diverge considerably ! ;-)

If anyone is interested in one of these engines, OR can help
with the numbers, please contact Brian Robinson at:

brando@lindsay.igs.net

or phone: (705) 374-4347 all day & evening ...

With enough interest, I think Brian will design & supply a
complete mounting package for the Moose, so let him know if you
are interested !

Thanks !

.....bobp




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The weight of the Firewall forward package on the Pitts model 12 is 689lb. This includes the M14P, prop, cowl, exh, engine mount, oil tank, oil cooler, etc ,etc. All items forward of the firewall. The CG of this 689lb FWF unit is 6.3" forward of the mount ring front face on an approx 20" long mount.

As for the comparision between the M14P and the chevy in performance, cost, etc., I feel the M14P wins the battle hands down. Brand new M14Ps are priced from $15.5K to $19k depending on where you get them. It would take 2500 cruise power setting flight hours to recover the added cost of this $45k auto engine system over that of the M14P. The M14P and a 3 blade prop produce 1560lb of static thrust(actual measured value on the airplane not theoretical) which is about double that of a 260hp IO 540 lyc and Hartzell prop.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 ph, 407-889-7168 fax
www.jimkimballenterprises.com

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Thanks very much for the numbers, Kevin !!

No arguement that the M-14 gives a lot of power for the
dollar, and also supplies a bunch of nostalgia. It certainly just
looks right on the Pitts !

There are several Moose builders in Alaska who are looking
at Chevy power for reasons OTHER than sheer power. Certainly, cold
weather ease of starting comes to mind - without having to pull it
through 10 blades (no fun on floats !). Fuel economy is another -
typically, about 60 % of what a comparable Lyc. would burn. For those
down south, being able to use automotive air conditioning could be
a big plus, too. I guess the ready availability in small towns of
parts and service if needed is another factor, as is the 'designed
-for-mogas' capability (although the M-14 is also happy on almost
any fuel - down to 78 octane !).

That price of $48K was just my recollection .... and,
of course, that's in Canadian Pesos (about 53 cents U.S. !! :-( )
But certainly a bit more than the round engine. It's just
another option ...

In any case, it's always "builder's choice" - that's
what makes homebuilding so exciting !!! :-)

.....bobp

---------------------------------orig.--------------------------------
At 05:27 AM 10/4/02 EDT, you wrote:

The weight of the Firewall forward package on the Pitts model 12 is 689lb.
This includes the M14P, prop, cowl, exh, engine mount, oil tank, oil cooler,
etc ,etc. All items forward of the firewall. The CG of this 689lb FWF unit
is 6.3" forward of the mount ring front face on an approx 20" long mount.

As for the comparision between the M14P and the chevy in performance, cost,
etc., I feel the M14P wins the battle hands down. Brand new M14Ps are priced
from $15.5K to $19k depending on where you get them. It would take 2500
cruise power setting flight hours to recover the added cost of this $45k auto
engine system over that of the M14P. The M14P and a 3 blade prop produce
1560lb of static thrust(actual measured value on the airplane not
theoretical) which is about double that of a 260hp IO 540 lyc and Hartzell
prop.

Sincerely,

Kevin Kimball, VP Engineering
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.
Zellwood, FL 32798
407-889-3451 ph, 407-889-7168 fax
www.jimkimballenterprises.com
<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>The weight of the Firewall

forward package on the Pitts model 12 is 689lb.&nbsp; This includes the
M14P, prop, cowl, exh, engine mount, oil tank, oil cooler, etc ,etc.&nbsp;
All items forward of the firewall.&nbsp; The CG of this 689lb FWF unit is
6.3" forward of the mount ring front face on an approx 20" long mount.<BR>

<BR>
As for the comparision between the M14P and the chevy in performance, cost,

etc., I feel the M14P wins the battle hands down.&nbsp; Brand new M14Ps are
priced from $15.5K to $19k depending on where you get them.&nbsp; It would
take 2500 cruise power setting flight hours to recover the added cost of
this $45k auto engine system over that of the M14P.&nbsp; The M14P and a 3
blade prop produce 1560lb of static thrust(actual measured value on the
airplane not theoretical) which is about double that of a 260hp IO 540 lyc
and Hartzell prop.<BR>

<BR>
Sincerely,<BR>
<BR>
<B><I>Kevin Kimball</B>, </I>VP Engineering<BR>
Jim Kimball Enterprises, Inc.<BR>
PO Box 849, 5354 Cemetery Rd.<BR>
Zellwood, FL 32798<BR>
407-889-3451 ph, 407-889-7168 fax<BR>
www.jimkimballenterprises.com<BR>
</FONT></HTML>

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Don't the two high performance chev engines mentioned both need high
test fuel or 100ll? Might be a hassle.

That is a wonderful installation in the SeaBee and it has even more
advantages than Bob mentioned but if I was going to spend that much
money and didn't need one in a hurry, I'm convinced we are getting close
to available diesels that will outshine the gasoline auto conversions.
Jet fuel, even lower system weight (you don't have to carry as much
fuel), etc.

BTW Dominion Auto just outside Hamilton Ontario just got a 1991 ej22
with 138,000 km. $700. if anyone is looking for one. The wiring harness
is no longer complete though :).

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks very much for the numbers, Kevin !!

No arguement that the M-14 gives a lot of power for the
dollar, and also supplies a bunch of nostalgia. It certainly just
looks right on the Pitts !

There are several Moose builders in Alaska who are looking
at Chevy power for reasons OTHER than sheer power. Certainly, cold
weather ease of starting comes to mind - without having to pull it
through 10 blades (no fun on floats !). Fuel economy is another -
typically, about 60 % of what a comparable Lyc. would burn. For those
down south, being able to use automotive air conditioning could be
a big plus, too. I guess the ready availability in small towns of
parts and service if needed is another factor, as is the 'designed
-for-mogas' capability (although the M-14 is also happy on almost
any fuel - down to 78 octane !).

That price of $48K was just my recollection .... and,
of course, that's in Canadian Pesos (about 53 cents U.S. !! :-( )
But certainly a bit more than the round engine. It's just
another option ...

In any case, it's always "builder's choice" - that's
what makes homebuilding so exciting !!! :-)

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You're right, Ken - these engines prefer premium fuel, but
the LS-6 will run on regular. Just like the Subarus, if there
is any knock detected, the computer will back off the timing,
which might cost some power, but get you home.

I understand Brian recommends using premium unleaded.

Some of the diesels sure do look promissing, but they
are fairly heavy, and don't seem to have the kind of horses the
Moose drivers want !! ;-)

That sounds like a real bargain for the EJ22, but if
I were starting now, I'd really hold out for a newer 2.5 L
engine, for the extra horses.....

Hope we'll see you on Sunday for the Fabric Session -
we need all the expertise we can muster !! :-)

....bobp

---------------------------------orig.------------------------------
At 12:06 PM 10/4/02 -0400, you wrote:

Don't the two high performance chev engines mentioned both need high
test fuel or 100ll? Might be a hassle.

That is a wonderful installation in the SeaBee and it has even more
advantages than Bob mentioned but if I was going to spend that much
money and didn't need one in a hurry, I'm convinced we are getting close
to available diesels that will outshine the gasoline auto conversions.
Jet fuel, even lower system weight (you don't have to carry as much
fuel), etc.

BTW Dominion Auto just outside Hamilton Ontario just got a 1991 ej22
with 138,000 km. $700. if anyone is looking for one. The wiring harness
is no longer complete though :).

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

Thanks very much for the numbers, Kevin !!

No arguement that the M-14 gives a lot of power for the
dollar, and also supplies a bunch of nostalgia. It certainly just
looks right on the Pitts !

There are several Moose builders in Alaska who are looking
at Chevy power for reasons OTHER than sheer power. Certainly, cold
weather ease of starting comes to mind - without having to pull it
through 10 blades (no fun on floats !). Fuel economy is another -
typically, about 60 % of what a comparable Lyc. would burn. For those
down south, being able to use automotive air conditioning could be
a big plus, too. I guess the ready availability in small towns of
parts and service if needed is another factor, as is the 'designed
-for-mogas' capability (although the M-14 is also happy on almost
any fuel - down to 78 octane !).

That price of $48K was just my recollection .... and,
of course, that's in Canadian Pesos (about 53 cents U.S. !! :-( )
But certainly a bit more than the round engine. It's just
another option ...

In any case, it's always "builder's choice" - that's
what makes homebuilding so exciting !!! :-)

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Yes I agree about the ej25.

Deltahawk is promising a future 300 to 400 horsepower diesel V-8 but it
is likely several years away still. Don't think they've even flown their
V-4 yet.
http://www.deltahawkengines.com/

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

You're right, Ken - these engines prefer premium fuel, but
the LS-6 will run on regular. Just like the Subarus, if there
is any knock detected, the computer will back off the timing,
which might cost some power, but get you home.

I understand Brian recommends using premium unleaded.

Some of the diesels sure do look promissing, but they
are fairly heavy, and don't seem to have the kind of horses the
Moose drivers want !! ;-)

That sounds like a real bargain for the EJ22, but if
I were starting now, I'd really hold out for a newer 2.5 L
engine, for the extra horses.....

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Hi Ken

You are right about the Deltahawk engine. It looks great & has been at
Oshkosh for many years (5 or 6 years anyway), under different company names
& have stated that the first aircraft it will fly on is a Varieze or
similar. I am not putting down the product at all as it looks great but
when it will come out is another matter.

Brian #328R

At 05:40 PM 10/4/2002 -0400, you wrote:

Yes I agree about the ej25.

Deltahawk is promising a future 300 to 400 horsepower diesel V-8 but it
is likely several years away still. Don't think they've even flown their
V-4 yet.
http://www.deltahawkengines.com/

Ken

Bob Patterson wrote:

You're right, Ken - these engines prefer premium fuel, but
the LS-6 will run on regular. Just like the Subarus, if there
is any knock detected, the computer will back off the timing,
which might cost some power, but get you home.

I understand Brian recommends using premium unleaded.

Some of the diesels sure do look promissing, but they
are fairly heavy, and don't seem to have the kind of horses the
Moose drivers want !! ;-)

That sounds like a real bargain for the EJ22, but if
I were starting now, I'd really hold out for a newer 2.5 L
engine, for the extra horses.....

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