The Murphy Builders Site

Hi:

I was told at one point by MAM tech support that the Rebel Elite has flush,
non-vented fuel caps. I like those, so that is what I used. MAM sent me a
fax of the fuel vent system on the Elite, that they said would work well

the Rebel too.

This vent system has a curved standpipe Tee-ing off of the cross-ships vent
between the tanks, and protruding into the slipstream just above the
windshield.

I am concerned about percolation from the expansion of gas in full tanks.
Because this standpipe is the only vent to the system with unvented caps,
the percolation could cause the gas to run right down the windshield.

Is there any modification that will allow venting from the outboard solid
tank rib to a Cessna-style vent tube exiting behind the strut? Or is there
a change to the Elite vent-system that accommodates some other form of
venting other than the cabin roof area?

Thanks!

Tim Carter
#438R

To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Subject: RE: Wow - PS 890 A-2 is the way to seal your tanks!


Hi Mike !

Not sure about the caps you have - ours are just a spin-on cap
like a car gas cap - tabs on the bottom to grab onto slots on the top of
the filler neck, which sticks up about an inch above the wing. Are yours
different ?

A tee off the top of the guages is a "Good Thing"(tm) - it
might be easier to have it poke up through the wing root fairing on
each side. Just to make it easier to get at, and to avoid fuel dribbling
down into the cockpit ...

I was just wondering if ANYONE can tell us what the latest
Super Rebel manuals say about venting.... ????

....bobp

---------------------------------orig.---------------------------------

At 11:56 AM 2/23/01 -0900, you wrote:

I'll have to look at the caps again. I don't remember seeing vent holes

the cap. I also don't remember finding a leak in the cap itself (i.e.,
where a vent hole would be if there was one). The leak I found was

the cap threads. I guess that's a form of venting. I haven't run across
mention of venting the tanks in the manual anywhere, but I haven't read

whole manual yet. I was sort of planning on venting the tanks with a tee

the top of the sight tube, vented cap or no vented cap.

Mike

-------------------------------orig.------------------------------------
To: <MURPHY-REBEL@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Subject: RE: Wow - PS 890 A-2 is the way to seal your tanks!


Hi Mike !

I'm not sure I'd want to trust Pro-Seal that had been thinned
with MEK - might change the flex properties over the long term ....

If your caps are the same as the standard ones for the Rebel,
they're SUPPOSED to be vented. I've always run a 1/16" drill through
the vent holes anyway, just to be sure. Is there another vent on
the Super somewhere ??

....bobp

-------------------------------orig.------------------------------------
At 06:05 PM 2/22/01 -0900, you wrote:

When I asked a mechanic at a local FBO (who is also active in the local
chapter of the EAA) about brushable proseal, the mechanics told me that

they

just dilute proseal with M.E.K. I didn't have any trouble with the tank

my right wing, and I didn't do anything special. I just gooped up
everything with proseal exactly as the manual told me to. Then I used a
soap solution and tested all seams and rivets with the tank slightly
pressurized. I found one leaky rivet, one of the four screws holding

tank filler in place, and the tank cap itself leaked. Fixing the rivet

the screw was child's play. The cap leaked around the threads. I'm
probably the only SR builder who actually used the marine fuel caps

supplied

with the kit. Guess I'll just call it a vented cap. I'm satisfied. My
soap solution technique easily found the tiny leaks at the rivet and the
screw, so I'm pretty sure the rest of the tank doesn't leak. I only

into the brushable proseal in case I discover a problem with the other

or even my first one, then I'll try the suggestion someone made about
creating a slight negative pressure in the tank with a shop vac and

brushing

the thinned proseal on the outside of the tank to hopefully be pulled in
through the leak by the negative pressure.

Mike Kimball

The fuel caps Mike is talking about are

insult Mike (as he isn't the supplier), but

designed for the marine environment, where they

a vertical face of a boat side. Personally, I

have gone this route are going to find water in

in the winter from melting snow seeping in

knows leak). They also won't have anything to

standing on the tire (or ladder) and reaching

ex-owner of a flush capped C182 I clearly

falls to the ground, off the ladder, many years

of the fuel system for the flush caps and it

pressure "pitot" style tube into the air flow,

Rebel I have built (no matter what caps are on

fuel can't get out! If you put the positive

neck and cap style fillers, DO NOT drill those

or your fuel will be blown out and down the

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

Hope I'm not butting in on Mike here, but looks
like he's already gone home for the day... the
caps he has are not the flush caps, the neck does
protrude fully above the wing. The packaging
that they come in though does indicate that they
are marine caps. There is another SR builder
here in Fairbanks who got the same caps with his
kit, but he opted to get the flush caps which
were different.

Mike

The fuel caps Mike is talking about are

the "flush caps"! No intention to

insult Mike (as he isn't the supplier), but

these are a cheap screw in cap

designed for the marine environment, where they

are usually found mounted on

a vertical face of a boat side. Personally, I

suspect that the people that

have gone this route are going to find water in

their fuel tanks (especially

in the winter from melting snow seeping in

through the threads that Mike

knows leak). They also won't have anything to

grab onto, when they are

standing on the tire (or ladder) and reaching

to dip their tanks (and as the

ex-owner of a flush capped C182 I clearly

remember the concussions from the

falls to the ground, off the ladder, many years

later)! I have viewed a copy

of the fuel system for the flush caps and it

suggests a tee and a positive

pressure "pitot" style tube into the air flow,

like I have put on every

Rebel I have built (no matter what caps are on

it). If air can't get in,

fuel can't get out! If you put the positive

pressure tube on the original

neck and cap style fillers, DO NOT drill those

little vent holes in the neck

or your fuel will be blown out and down the

wing during flight!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

Hope I'm not butting in on Mike here, but looks
like he's already gone home for the day... the
caps he has are not the flush caps, the neck does
protrude fully above the wing. The packaging
that they come in though does indicate that they
are marine caps. There is another SR builder
here in Fairbanks who got the same caps with his
kit, but he opted to get the flush caps which
were different.

Mike

The fuel caps Mike is talking about are

the "flush caps"! No intention to

insult Mike (as he isn't the supplier), but

these are a cheap screw in cap

designed for the marine environment, where they

are usually found mounted on

a vertical face of a boat side. Personally, I

suspect that the people that

have gone this route are going to find water in

their fuel tanks (especially

in the winter from melting snow seeping in

through the threads that Mike

knows leak). They also won't have anything to

grab onto, when they are

standing on the tire (or ladder) and reaching

to dip their tanks (and as the

ex-owner of a flush capped C182 I clearly

remember the concussions from the

falls to the ground, off the ladder, many years

later)! I have viewed a copy

of the fuel system for the flush caps and it

suggests a tee and a positive

pressure "pitot" style tube into the air flow,

like I have put on every

Rebel I have built (no matter what caps are on

it). If air can't get in,

fuel can't get out! If you put the positive

pressure tube on the original

neck and cap style fillers, DO NOT drill those

little vent holes in the neck

or your fuel will be blown out and down the

wing during flight!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

Thanks Mike D.

I didn't realize that MAM has now replace the nice simple 1/8th turn cap

neck set, with screw off style caps. I just assumed that he was talking
about the flush ones, as they were the only ones I knew of that screwed
in/out (as I received one due to a shipping error by MAM). Glad I traded
Mike Jones some hardware, for an unused set of the original caps/necks, so

have them for the next set of wings I build (if MAM is now supplying this
style instead)!

Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 12:43 AM
Subject: Fuel Caps

Hope I'm not butting in on Mike here, but looks
like he's already gone home for the day... the
caps he has are not the flush caps, the neck does
protrude fully above the wing. The packaging
that they come in though does indicate that they
are marine caps. There is another SR builder
here in Fairbanks who got the same caps with his
kit, but he opted to get the flush caps which
were different.

Mike

The fuel caps Mike is talking about are

the "flush caps"! No intention to

insult Mike (as he isn't the supplier), but

these are a cheap screw in cap

designed for the marine environment, where they

are usually found mounted on

a vertical face of a boat side. Personally, I

suspect that the people that

have gone this route are going to find water in

their fuel tanks (especially

in the winter from melting snow seeping in

through the threads that Mike

knows leak). They also won't have anything to

grab onto, when they are

standing on the tire (or ladder) and reaching

to dip their tanks (and as the

ex-owner of a flush capped C182 I clearly

remember the concussions from the

falls to the ground, off the ladder, many years

later)! I have viewed a copy

of the fuel system for the flush caps and it

suggests a tee and a positive

pressure "pitot" style tube into the air flow,

like I have put on every

Rebel I have built (no matter what caps are on

it). If air can't get in,

fuel can't get out! If you put the positive

pressure tube on the original

neck and cap style fillers, DO NOT drill those

little vent holes in the neck

or your fuel will be blown out and down the

wing during flight!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

Sending again as it didn't come through. Wayne

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne G. O'Shea" <oifa@irishfield.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: Fuel Caps

Thanks Mike D.

I didn't realize that MAM has now replace the nice simple 1/8th turn cap

and

neck set, with screw off style caps. I just assumed that he was talking
about the flush ones, as they were the only ones I knew of that screwed
in/out (as I received one due to a shipping error by MAM). Glad I traded
Mike Jones some hardware, for an unused set of the original caps/necks,

I

have them for the next set of wings I build (if MAM is now supplying

style instead)!

Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 12:43 AM
Subject: Fuel Caps

Hope I'm not butting in on Mike here, but looks
like he's already gone home for the day... the
caps he has are not the flush caps, the neck does
protrude fully above the wing. The packaging
that they come in though does indicate that they
are marine caps. There is another SR builder
here in Fairbanks who got the same caps with his
kit, but he opted to get the flush caps which
were different.

Mike
the "flush caps"! No intention to these are a cheap screw in cap are usually found mounted on suspect that the people that their fuel tanks (especially through the threads that Mike grab onto, when they are to dip their tanks (and as the remember the concussions from the later)! I have viewed a copy suggests a tee and a positive like I have put on every it). If air can't get in, pressure tube on the original little vent holes in the neck wing during flight!

From: <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 12:43 AM
Subject: Fuel Caps

Hope I'm not butting in on Mike here, but looks
like he's already gone home for the day... the
caps he has are not the flush caps, the neck does
protrude fully above the wing. The packaging
that they come in though does indicate that they
are marine caps. There is another SR builder
here in Fairbanks who got the same caps with his
kit, but he opted to get the flush caps which
were different.

Mike

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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuel Caps


Hi Mike(s) !!

Hmmmmmm ! I don't think I've ever seen this kind of cap - any
chance of getting a picture or sketch for us ???

It <does> sound a <bit> like the 'flush' caps on #001 - they
stick above the wing about 1/2", and screw in. They have a large
slot in the cap, which just fits a 'twonie', to open them.
(proves they're Canadian, EH ! )

Ours are drilled and fitted with an inverted "J" tube coming
out of the top of the "neck" fitting. ... VERY small (1/16") diameter
tubing - OK for 912 fuel flow needs, but probably NOT big enough
for an O-320 !

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:43 PM 2/23/01 -0900, you wrote:

Hope I'm not butting in on Mike here, but looks
like he's already gone home for the day... the
caps he has are not the flush caps, the neck does
protrude fully above the wing. The packaging
that they come in though does indicate that they
are marine caps. There is another SR builder
here in Fairbanks who got the same caps with his
kit, but he opted to get the flush caps which
were different.

Mike

The fuel caps Mike is talking about are

the "flush caps"! No intention to

insult Mike (as he isn't the supplier), but

these are a cheap screw in cap

designed for the marine environment, where they

are usually found mounted on

a vertical face of a boat side. Personally, I

suspect that the people that

have gone this route are going to find water in

their fuel tanks (especially

in the winter from melting snow seeping in

through the threads that Mike

knows leak). They also won't have anything to

grab onto, when they are

standing on the tire (or ladder) and reaching

to dip their tanks (and as the

ex-owner of a flush capped C182 I clearly

remember the concussions from the

falls to the ground, off the ladder, many years

later)! I have viewed a copy

of the fuel system for the flush caps and it

suggests a tee and a positive

pressure "pitot" style tube into the air flow,

like I have put on every

Rebel I have built (no matter what caps are on

it). If air can't get in,

fuel can't get out! If you put the positive

pressure tube on the original

neck and cap style fillers, DO NOT drill those

little vent holes in the neck

or your fuel will be blown out and down the

wing during flight!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

Hope I'm not butting in on Mike here, but looks
like he's already gone home for the day... the
caps he has are not the flush caps, the neck does
protrude fully above the wing. The packaging
that they come in though does indicate that they
are marine caps. There is another SR builder
here in Fairbanks who got the same caps with his
kit, but he opted to get the flush caps which
were different.

Mike

The fuel caps Mike is talking about are

the "flush caps"! No intention to

insult Mike (as he isn't the supplier), but

these are a cheap screw in cap

designed for the marine environment, where they

are usually found mounted on

a vertical face of a boat side. Personally, I

suspect that the people that

have gone this route are going to find water in

their fuel tanks (especially

in the winter from melting snow seeping in

through the threads that Mike

knows leak). They also won't have anything to

grab onto, when they are

standing on the tire (or ladder) and reaching

to dip their tanks (and as the

ex-owner of a flush capped C182 I clearly

remember the concussions from the

falls to the ground, off the ladder, many years

later)! I have viewed a copy

of the fuel system for the flush caps and it

suggests a tee and a positive

pressure "pitot" style tube into the air flow,

like I have put on every

Rebel I have built (no matter what caps are on

it). If air can't get in,

fuel can't get out! If you put the positive

pressure tube on the original

neck and cap style fillers, DO NOT drill those

little vent holes in the neck

or your fuel will be blown out and down the

wing during flight!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

Hi Wayne

I assume that you could not easily replace the standard MAM caps with the
newer types. Any recommendations of old vs. new etc.?

Regards

Brian #328R

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Wayne G. O'Shea
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 8:38 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel Caps


Thanks Mike D.

I didn't realize that MAM has now replace the nice simple 1/8th turn cap

neck set, with screw off style caps. I just assumed that he was talking
about the flush ones, as they were the only ones I knew of that screwed
in/out (as I received one due to a shipping error by MAM). Glad I traded
Mike Jones some hardware, for an unused set of the original caps/necks, so

have them for the next set of wings I build (if MAM is now supplying this
style instead)!

Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 12:43 AM
Subject: Fuel Caps

Hope I'm not butting in on Mike here, but looks
like he's already gone home for the day... the
caps he has are not the flush caps, the neck does
protrude fully above the wing. The packaging
that they come in though does indicate that they
are marine caps. There is another SR builder
here in Fairbanks who got the same caps with his
kit, but he opted to get the flush caps which
were different.

Mike

The fuel caps Mike is talking about are

the "flush caps"! No intention to

insult Mike (as he isn't the supplier), but

these are a cheap screw in cap

designed for the marine environment, where they

are usually found mounted on

a vertical face of a boat side. Personally, I

suspect that the people that

have gone this route are going to find water in

their fuel tanks (especially

in the winter from melting snow seeping in

through the threads that Mike

knows leak). They also won't have anything to

grab onto, when they are

standing on the tire (or ladder) and reaching

to dip their tanks (and as the

ex-owner of a flush capped C182 I clearly

remember the concussions from the

falls to the ground, off the ladder, many years

later)! I have viewed a copy

of the fuel system for the flush caps and it

suggests a tee and a positive

pressure "pitot" style tube into the air flow,

like I have put on every

Rebel I have built (no matter what caps are on

it). If air can't get in,

fuel can't get out! If you put the positive

pressure tube on the original

neck and cap style fillers, DO NOT drill those

little vent holes in the neck

or your fuel will be blown out and down the

wing during flight!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

Hope I'm not butting in on Mike here, but looks
like he's already gone home for the day... the
caps he has are not the flush caps, the neck does
protrude fully above the wing. The packaging
that they come in though does indicate that they
are marine caps. There is another SR builder
here in Fairbanks who got the same caps with his
kit, but he opted to get the flush caps which
were different.

Mike

The fuel caps Mike is talking about are

the "flush caps"! No intention to

insult Mike (as he isn't the supplier), but

these are a cheap screw in cap

designed for the marine environment, where they

are usually found mounted on

a vertical face of a boat side. Personally, I

suspect that the people that

have gone this route are going to find water in

their fuel tanks (especially

in the winter from melting snow seeping in

through the threads that Mike

knows leak). They also won't have anything to

grab onto, when they are

standing on the tire (or ladder) and reaching

to dip their tanks (and as the

ex-owner of a flush capped C182 I clearly

remember the concussions from the

falls to the ground, off the ladder, many years

later)! I have viewed a copy

of the fuel system for the flush caps and it

suggests a tee and a positive

pressure "pitot" style tube into the air flow,

like I have put on every

Rebel I have built (no matter what caps are on

it). If air can't get in,

fuel can't get out! If you put the positive

pressure tube on the original

neck and cap style fillers, DO NOT drill those

little vent holes in the neck

or your fuel will be blown out and down the

wing during flight!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

snip
To vent the tank, I plan to tee off the upper sight tube fitting right at
the root rib (not in the cockpit) and fashion a tube that goes up a little
bit, then down through the bottom of the fairing between the wing and the
fuselage, angled into the wind. My thinking is that this is better than a
tube in the cap pointing into the wind because when flying in rain the rain
would get into the tank. I suppose some water could still get into the tank
when flying in rain with my method, but it has a much harder path to get
there. I hope there's enough room to go up a bit and still stay under the
upper fairing. I plan to independently vent each tank so I don't have to
worry about cross venting.

Mike Kimball

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
The list archives are located at:
http://www.dcsol.com:81/public/default.htm
username: rebel password: builder
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Mike Davis has offered to provide a web page for me on his server. Soon I
hope to be able to place all sorts of pictures of my SR there. I'll be sure
to include a picture of the fuel cap. But your description sounds just like
mine.

After thinking about the problem of water getting in to the tank through
this cap I am considering sealing up the hole and buying a better cap. My
only concern is the metal shavings that will end up in my tank from cutting
a new hole. I have to figure out a way to narrow my shop vac hose enough to
fit through the hole. Then I have to rely on my fuel filter to pick up what
I miss.

To vent the tank, I plan to tee off the upper sight tube fitting right at
the root rib (not in the cockpit) and fashion a tube that goes up a little
bit, then down through the bottom of the fairing between the wing and the
fuselage, angled into the wind. My thinking is that this is better than a
tube in the cap pointing into the wind because when flying in rain the rain
would get into the tank. I suppose some water could still get into the tank
when flying in rain with my method, but it has a much harder path to get
there. I hope there's enough room to go up a bit and still stay under the
upper fairing. I plan to independently vent each tank so I don't have to
worry about cross venting.

Mike Kimball

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
APAT@ISTAR.CA
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2001 6:57 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Fuel Caps


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To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
From: Bob Patterson <apat@istar.ca>
Subject: Re: Fuel Caps


Hi Mike(s) !!

Hmmmmmm ! I don't think I've ever seen this kind of cap - any
chance of getting a picture or sketch for us ???

It <does> sound a <bit> like the 'flush' caps on #001 - they
stick above the wing about 1/2", and screw in. They have a large
slot in the cap, which just fits a 'twonie', to open them.
(proves they're Canadian, EH ! )

Ours are drilled and fitted with an inverted "J" tube coming
out of the top of the "neck" fitting. ... VERY small (1/16") diameter
tubing - OK for 912 fuel flow needs, but probably NOT big enough
for an O-320 !

.....bobp

------------------------------orig.--------------------------------------
At 08:43 PM 2/23/01 -0900, you wrote:

Hope I'm not butting in on Mike here, but looks
like he's already gone home for the day... the
caps he has are not the flush caps, the neck does
protrude fully above the wing. The packaging
that they come in though does indicate that they
are marine caps. There is another SR builder
here in Fairbanks who got the same caps with his
kit, but he opted to get the flush caps which
were different.

Mike

The fuel caps Mike is talking about are

the "flush caps"! No intention to

insult Mike (as he isn't the supplier), but

these are a cheap screw in cap

designed for the marine environment, where they

are usually found mounted on

a vertical face of a boat side. Personally, I

suspect that the people that

have gone this route are going to find water in

their fuel tanks (especially

in the winter from melting snow seeping in

through the threads that Mike

knows leak). They also won't have anything to

grab onto, when they are

standing on the tire (or ladder) and reaching

to dip their tanks (and as the

ex-owner of a flush capped C182 I clearly

remember the concussions from the

falls to the ground, off the ladder, many years

later)! I have viewed a copy

of the fuel system for the flush caps and it

suggests a tee and a positive

pressure "pitot" style tube into the air flow,

like I have put on every

Rebel I have built (no matter what caps are on

it). If air can't get in,

fuel can't get out! If you put the positive

pressure tube on the original

neck and cap style fillers, DO NOT drill those

little vent holes in the neck

or your fuel will be blown out and down the

wing during flight!

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

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