The Murphy Builders Site

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:21 pm**

Hello Mike,

Let's see, are blondes better than redheads? Hmmmmm.... We are building an IFR Elite taildragger with O-360 power. It may go on floats but into the air first. We got our kit in Oct of '97 and there is still not a kit on the market that I would prefer. We picked the Elite for all aluminum construction an ability to use 180 hp. Given the extra gross versus the extra weight the real useful load is probably a tossup. We will be at high density altitudes and the 180 hp seemed like a good choice but I believe a good light Rebel with 150 or 160 hp would provide equivalent performance. I personally would go with the 150hp as I don't think the 160 can use auto gas. (Someone may correct me on this) I would not use electric flaps on the Elite as the mechanical system is simple. Any homebuilder will tell you that modifications are like pulling a sweater thread - there is no end! If you must have a tricycle gear then it has to be the Elite. Also, the Elite cabin has a few less parts and is probably easier to build. There is also an Elite fast build kit that is a real jump start if you have the money and want to fly sooner.

This is one of those nicer questions where there is really no wrong answer. If I were starting over and did not need fast build, front training wheel, and didn't care about fabric I would lean toward the Rebel for essentially equal performance, lower cost, and the bunches of cheaper O-320 engines available. As a kind Rebel builder told me after a great flight in his beautiful Rebel, "I don't know any Rebel or Elite owners who aren't happy with their plane".

If you are certain about float use consider extra corrosion protection. Also, floats or not I suggest adding the Wayne O'Shea and Murphy "float fix" strengthening parts. We did add screw removable (not riveted) access plates and screw removable wing tips and fin tip, all in the interest of easier maintenance.
Enjoy the building process!
Ralph Baker / Sue Scouten
Elite 624E (reserved)

Posted: **Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:21 pm**

Nice reply Ralph.
You got me thinking a little more regarding those fabric flaperons...
Yes they should last 20+ years, are lighter, don't need
counterbalancing, I learned about fabric, and it isn't difficult. OTOH
while I may not be typical, I'm sure I've spent a hundred hours
collecting material and covering them. Not to mention the cost (several
hundred dollars) of those additional materials. And waiting for weather
suitable for spraying them like I'm doing at the moment. Then there is
the annoyance that it is perhaps not the best idea to use less flexible
car paint on them. In fact I gather that it would now be prohibited to
use anything except Polyfiber Polytone or Aerothane paint on them if
this were a certified aircraft, and that does not come in my preferred
colours.
Of course I could have covered them with aluminum but that would have
been "pulling one of those sweater threads" with balance weights and
such and it would have taken just as long by the time all the aluminum
scraps settled...
Gotta award one point to the Elite for aluminum flaperons!
Ken

Ralph Baker wrote:

Hello Mike,

Let's see, are blondes better than redheads? Hmmmmm.... We are
building an IFR Elite taildragger with O-360 power. It may go on
floats but into the air first. We got our kit in Oct of '97 and there
is still not a kit on the market that I would prefer. We picked the
Elite for all aluminum construction an ability to use 180 hp. Given
the extra gross versus the extra weight the real useful load is
probably a tossup. We will be at high density altitudes and the 180
hp seemed like a good choice but I believe a good light Rebel with 150
or 160 hp would provide equivalent performance. I personally would go
with the 150hp as I don't think the 160 can use auto gas. (Someone
may correct me on this) I would not use electric flaps on the Elite
as the mechanical system is simple. Any homebuilder will tell you
that modifications are like pulling a sweater thread - there is no
end! If you must have a tricycle gear then it has to be the
Elite. Also, the Elite cabin has a few less parts and is probably
easier to build. There is also an Elite fast build kit that is a real
jump start if you have the money and want to fly sooner.

This is one of those nicer questions where there is really no wrong
answer. If I were starting over and did not need fast build, front
training wheel, and didn't care about fabric I would lean toward the
Rebel for essentially equal performance, lower cost, and the bunches
of cheaper O-320 engines available. As a kind Rebel builder told
me after a great flight in his beautiful Rebel, "I don't know any
Rebel or Elite owners who aren't happy with their plane".

If you are certain about float use consider extra corrosion
protection. Also, floats or not I suggest adding the Wayne O'Shea and
Murphy "float fix" strengthening parts. We did add screw removable
(not riveted) access plates and screw removable wing tips and fin tip,
all in the interest of easier maintenance.
Enjoy the building process!
Ralph Baker / Sue Scouten
Elite 624E (reserved)

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Posted: **Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:52 am**

Hi Bill, if you look through the archives, I'm sure you'll find this
discussed several times. As mentioned, the Rebel was around for a number of
years before the Elite became available... and I think the fact that the
Super Rebel came to market the same time as the Elite may have affected
Elite sales. I believe that today 9 out of 10 kits Murphy sells are Moose!

The Elite construction in most cases is closer to the SR or Moose than it is
to the Rebel, and suffers the same short comings as the SR and Moose in
regards to the manaul. Murphy claims that the Elite is easier to construct
than a Rebel, and while difficulty is a relative term, I think the progress
that Mike Betti (www.mikeselite.com) has shown clearly demonstrates how
quickly one can be built by a first time builder.

I think most folks here would agree that the 100 lbs additional useful load
is a pipe dream. By the time you're all done, the useful load between the
Rebel and Elite is probably quite similar, with individual aircraft of both
types having more or less useful load than others of both types. I've heard
of very few Elites coming in under 1000 lbs empty weight, so you trade the
higher gross for a higher empty weight.

Considering that, I've heard folks say your better to buy the Rebel because
you don't really gain anything with an Elite, but it costs more. Well I
don't know about current prices, but a few years ago I sat down and added up
options that most folks get with the Rebel, and compared it to a comparable
Elite... and the price difference was much smaller than the base kit prices
might have led you to believe. Many items that were optional on a Rebel kit
were included in an Elite kit... so again, the comparison is not as simple
as base price or gross weight.

So with all that said, it's no easy choice, but either aircraft will be a
terrific airplane when you're done. I personally would have built an Elite
if I had not decided I wanted the additional room and load carrying of the
Moose. I still found this decision to be agonizing, and these aircraft are
not nearly so similar as the Elite and Rebel.

Best of luck with your decision, Mike.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Wagner" <WagnerB@mjss.ca>
To: <rebel-builders-d@dcsol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 11:54 AM
Subject: Rebel /Elite landing gear

I'm the guy in Calgary who was planning to build a Moose. When I met
with Darryl in July, he suggested that, since I haven't any flying
experience, I should either (a) get a smaller certified tailwheel
aircraft to get proficient on, or (b) build something smaller before
tackling something like the Moose. I'm cool with that advice - I don't
want to bite off more than I can chew, and my wife & I don't have kids
yet (though this will happen sooner or later...).

Option (a) costs a lot more than (b), and at age 34, I'm still young
enough that there's time to do both. So I'm weighing the pros & cons of
the Rebel, the Elite, and, to my own surprise, the RV-9 taildragger,
which is supposed to be really easy to fly.

However, I hear the RV just isn't a soft field plane, and frankly,
that's where I want to end up, eventually. There are too many good
fishing holes out in the backcountry, and not all of them have an
airstrip located conveniently nearby.

Plus the stall speed of the Rebel is slightly better. Useful load is
better. You can put the O-360 on the Elite. Floats are an option that
I'd like to hang on to, so Murphy wins that test, too.

On the other hand, the RV seems to be a "one-stop shopping" experience
(the kit is really complete, and by all accounts very easy to put
together), and comes in about, oh, I would guess $10,000 cheaper than
the Elite if one is building a basic day-VFR plane. And it's hard to
argue with a 180mph cruising speed if one is flying in the Rocky
Mountains. I know, I know: apples to oranges.

One thing I can't figure out - why do Rebels seem to outnumber Elites 10
to one? Is it because the Elite is a newer design? Are Rebels easier
to fly? Help me out guys, because on paper, the Elite seems to be the
one to build: it's all metal (no dope on the flaps & ailerons), it
carries 100lbs more useful load, you can put the O-360 into it, et
cetera.

Darryl was also a big fan of the Elite, saying that, by the time you put
all the options people usually choose (e.g. spring gear) into the Rebel,
you might as well have the thicker skins and other plusses of the Elite.

So I have a question about the spring gear, too. It's *aluminum*
spring??? What's better for soft fields - the standard cub-style bungee
gear with tundra tires (and a Scott 3200 tail wheel, of course!), or
spring gear and 8x6.00 tires?

Or spring *and* tundras (can this indeed be done)? I ask because I have
heard that the Cessna 180 is not appropriate for tundra tires due to its
*steel* spring gear, which makes me wonder if one can indeed put big
wheels on the Elite?

Can you guys help me out, Rebel vs. Elite? I don't want to start a war,
but I would appreciate any recent advice on this topic. Also, any
advice you can give about the Rebel vs. RV-9 quandry would be of
assistance, too!

Bill

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