The Murphy Builders Site

Hello Everyone,


My name is Michael Snow and I am located in Whitby. I am somewhat new to
your list. I have been lurking for about a week, I tried to subscribe for
sometime but was having problems doing so.

Anyhow I am finally here.

I like, most homebuilders have spent the last few years researching what
aircraft I was going to build. I went from BearHawk, to Cub type aircraft to
many in-between, I ordered drawing after drawing but always seemed to keep
coming back to the Rebel/Elite

I have read just about everything I could get my hands on, and have watched
the video a dozen times or more. But I am having a hard time deciding which
aircraft to build.

My intended plans are for at least 180 HP, amphibious floats, electric flaps
& trim and a full panel (possibly IFR?)

Any opinions, comments or questions would be appreciated.

I am looking for as much input from you guys as possible, I am leaning
towards the Elite, but if you think I should go Rebel, please tell me why.
Please include any tips or modifications you think would be worthwhile.

Thanks for all your time.


Michael






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Hi Michael

If you're that serious about your research you will find several
discussions on this if you skim through all the archives.

I'm not the guy to answer your questions as I'm still building but I can
comment that the Elite was designed to be a tricylcle gear Rebel.
Therefore it is heavier and probably has less useful load with a 180hp
engine. A Rebel is limited to an 0-320 (160hp max but 150hp is more
popular) so you don't want to put anything bigger on a standard Rebel
but I have the impression that the performance is as good as a 180hp
Elite. The Rebel still seems to be more popular than the Elite and most
Elite builders seem to be building it as a tail dragger anyway.

Electric flaps are not a popular addition to the Rebel but a few guys
have done it. Wayne may still have an electric system for sale that he
removed from someones Rebel last year.

Presumably you are aware of the builder's meeting that Bob P. hosts
every second month at Brampton Airport. A great source of assistance in
addition to this newsgroup.

Ken

Murphy Rebel Elite wrote:

Hello Everyone,

My name is Michael Snow and I am located in Whitby. I am somewhat new to
your list. I have been lurking for about a week, I tried to subscribe for
sometime but was having problems doing so.

Anyhow I am finally here.

I like, most homebuilders have spent the last few years researching what
aircraft I was going to build. I went from BearHawk, to Cub type aircraft to
many in-between, I ordered drawing after drawing but always seemed to keep
coming back to the Rebel/Elite

I have read just about everything I could get my hands on, and have watched
the video a dozen times or more. But I am having a hard time deciding which
aircraft to build.

My intended plans are for at least 180 HP, amphibious floats, electric flaps
& trim and a full panel (possibly IFR?)

Any opinions, comments or questions would be appreciated.

I am looking for as much input from you guys as possible, I am leaning
towards the Elite, but if you think I should go Rebel, please tell me why.
Please include any tips or modifications you think would be worthwhile.

Thanks for all your time.

Michael

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Dear Michael,
Welcome to the decision scenario!!!!
I recently purchased a subkit (the control surfaces & tail section) of the
Elite; it has just been delivered to Sydney (Australia). I already own a
Piper Tomahawk (VH-LCX) that I have put 500 hours on in the last five years.
I needed something more practical to get me into and out of some of the bush
strips that I visit. After much study, I narrowed it down to the RV 9 and
the Elite(Rebel). I dithered around for six months trying to decide. A ride
in a mate's Rebel convinced me of the way to go. This decision created
another problem not dis-similar to yours, a Rebel or Elite!!!
After much reading of the archives, furthur dithering, working through a
"mission statement", looking at The Rebel options and up grades, I finally
decided upon the Elite. I know that I have made the right decision for ME.
An optioned up Rebel with the "required fixes" is only a few dollars
cheaper.
I found the hardest part is just making the decision. Go for it!!!

Kind regards,
Greg Gordon.
Elite 724E.






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I think Greg made a really good point here... before I decided to bite the
bullet and build the Moose I had been planning on an Elite. For me the
choice between the Elite and Rebel came down to pretty much what Greg
mentioned. The Rebel has definate advantages if you plan to try and keep
things light, but if you're going to put on the big engine, and fill up the
panel, then the Elite is already a beefed up Rebel, and it's easier to build
with fewer parts. By the time you add all the available upgrades to the
Rebel to beef it up to the point of an Elite, you've spent about the same
money, and your useful load is about the same. At this point I think the
Elite with the cleaner tail, larger cabin, and higher speed is a good
choice.

Just more food for thought!

Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Gordon" <cosglo@ozemail.com.au>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel VS Elite

Dear Michael,
Welcome to the decision scenario!!!!
I recently purchased a subkit (the control surfaces & tail section) of the
Elite; it has just been delivered to Sydney (Australia). I already own a
Piper Tomahawk (VH-LCX) that I have put 500 hours on in the last five

years.

I needed something more practical to get me into and out of some of the

bush

strips that I visit. After much study, I narrowed it down to the RV 9 and
the Elite(Rebel). I dithered around for six months trying to decide. A

ride

in a mate's Rebel convinced me of the way to go. This decision created
another problem not dis-similar to yours, a Rebel or Elite!!!
After much reading of the archives, furthur dithering, working through a
"mission statement", looking at The Rebel options and up grades, I finally
decided upon the Elite. I know that I have made the right decision for ME.
An optioned up Rebel with the "required fixes" is only a few dollars
cheaper.
I found the hardest part is just making the decision. Go for it!!!

Kind regards,
Greg Gordon.
Elite 724E.

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My thoughts exactly
Hope to be done this fall

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine




-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Mike Davis
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 6:40 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel VS Elite


I think Greg made a really good point here... before I decided to bite the
bullet and build the Moose I had been planning on an Elite. For me the
choice between the Elite and Rebel came down to pretty much what Greg
mentioned. The Rebel has definate advantages if you plan to try and keep
things light, but if you're going to put on the big engine, and fill up the
panel, then the Elite is already a beefed up Rebel, and it's easier to build
with fewer parts. By the time you add all the available upgrades to the
Rebel to beef it up to the point of an Elite, you've spent about the same
money, and your useful load is about the same. At this point I think the
Elite with the cleaner tail, larger cabin, and higher speed is a good
choice.

Just more food for thought!

Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregory Gordon" <cosglo@ozemail.com.au>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel VS Elite

Dear Michael,
Welcome to the decision scenario!!!!
I recently purchased a subkit (the control surfaces & tail section) of the
Elite; it has just been delivered to Sydney (Australia). I already own a
Piper Tomahawk (VH-LCX) that I have put 500 hours on in the last five

years.

I needed something more practical to get me into and out of some of the

bush

strips that I visit. After much study, I narrowed it down to the RV 9 and
the Elite(Rebel). I dithered around for six months trying to decide. A

ride

in a mate's Rebel convinced me of the way to go. This decision created
another problem not dis-similar to yours, a Rebel or Elite!!!
After much reading of the archives, furthur dithering, working through a
"mission statement", looking at The Rebel options and up grades, I finally
decided upon the Elite. I know that I have made the right decision for ME.
An optioned up Rebel with the "required fixes" is only a few dollars
cheaper.
I found the hardest part is just making the decision. Go for it!!!

Kind regards,
Greg Gordon.
Elite 724E.

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When you're in the business of defying gravity, every ounce counts and weight is everything. If you can have a lighter plane with the same performance, a smaller lighter engine and the same useful load then you are better off with the Rebel,... IMHO. Your investment is less and your cost per hour to operate are less. The Elite does has a larger rear cargo area (3" in height) but it is limited to the same load. It would be better if you wanted a rear set.

Grant from MAM told me last year, they sell two Rebels for every Elite. Hmmmm? That's a statement in its self.

No hard feelings you Elite drivers. It's still a great airplane and I would build or buy either plane that was the best deal at the time. The quick built might push me over the edge. After building two kit planes in the past five years, juggling work and family, the quick built sounds like a winner if I decided to go a third round.

Bruce G 357R

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I think as more Elites are built this will change
People tend not to buy what is new and unseen

Keith Oliver
Elite #654 TD
N654ME (reserved)
Farmingdale, Maine

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of Legeorgen@cs.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 10:41 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel VS Elite


Grant from MAM told me last year, they sell two Rebels for every Elite. Hmmmm? That's a statement in its self.


Bruce G 357R

Wow you guys are in a way different income bracket than me if you think
$10,000can isn't much of a price difference. The Elite is a really nice
looking plane and if you're heart is set on having 180hp then it's your
only choice. I'm quite content with my rebel and
95% of the time it's way more plane than I need.
Drew Dalgleish
-----------------------------------------------------





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Drew,
I do have an advantage in owning a low airframed Tomahawk; so whilst I am
building over the next few years, I will always be able to go for a fly. I
need the adrenalin rush!! Down the track I will roll over my investment in
the Tomahawk to purchase an engine and avionics. My wife will only permit me
one complete "toy" at a time. By the way our "Pacific peso" ie the $AUS
against the $US is about the same as the $CAN against the $US.

Regards,
Greg Gordon.





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Hey Drew,

The base price is quite a difference, but if you look at all the upgrades
that are available for the rebel to bring it closer to where the Elite
starts, your only talking about $1000 or $1500 difference.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Dalgleish" <drewjan@cabletv.on.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel VS Elite

Wow you guys are in a way different income bracket than me if you think
$10,000can isn't much of a price difference. The Elite is a really nice
looking plane and if you're heart is set on having 180hp then it's your
only choice. I'm quite content with my rebel and
95% of the time it's way more plane than I need.
Drew Dalgleish

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I am using the Rebel fabric flaps & ailerons on my taildragger Elite. You
will need the Rebel wingtips or the aftermarket Hornier tips, though I
suppose you could glass in the Elite tips and maybe get some additional
wingspan since I think they are wider to accommodate the counterweight that
will no longer be needed. I am leaning to retaining the seperate flaps and
ailerons based on Steve Sloans excellent performance. A variation might be
to add metal flaps with fabric ailerons. You must seperate the flaps and
ailerons to do this. The plus is that you can use one more notch of flaps
since the metal flap has a mid span support and can take more load. For
those who were unaware, both reflex and "droop" are still retained in the
seperate flap/aileron configuration on the Elite which should still give
enhanced low speed and high speed performance. The telflex cable is shorter
and more direct so the problematic lost motion should be much reduced over
the Rebel.

Here are a few more random thoughts on Elite/Rebel differences. Having
worked on both a Rebel and an Elite, it is obvious that the cabin cage
structure is MUCH beefier on the Elite in the floor and door sill area.
Hopefully the Elite design will have solved some of the Rebel structural
"challenges" in this area. Yes it added weight, but the numerous fixes to
the Rebel to beef up weak ares discovered in the field also added much
weight as well. The gross weight on the Elite has increased to accomodate
the additional structural changes while the Rebel has stayed the same at the
expense of reduced payload. Also the tailwheel structure is completely
different from the Rebel using two nested steel tubes that react through a
gimballed fitting. Finally, the higher roof line should give a little
better performance since it now matches the contour of the wing in the
reflex position. The extra inside headroom and larger door opening is
welcome in the event you want to add a jumpseat in the back and turn your
Elite into a 2+2 configuration as one local builder did with great results.
Time will tell how this and other improvements will work out, but I think
they are steps in the right direction. Both the Rebel and the Elite are
great planes and you can't go wrong with either. Unlike religion and
politics, liking one doesn't have to mean hating the other.

Chuck Skorupa
Elite 500E

From: Walter Klatt <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Rebel VS Elite
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:21:32 -0700

One of the things that allows a higher gross weight on the Elite is .032
leading edge wing skins. These can also be put on the Rebel to strengthen
the wings, but retain the lighter fabric flaperons. That is one option that
I would seriously consider if I was going to build a Rebel again and put it
on floats. That 1730 gross weight on amphibs really doesn't leave you a lot
of payload.

Not sure if this is possible, but it could save a lot of weight if you
could
use the Rebel flaperon structure on the Elite, instead of the metal split
flaps. You might have better float performance, too.

I totally agree that empty weight is very important, and every little bit
helps. With my Rebel, I notice a difference in performance with just 10
gallons fuel which is only 60 pounds.

Walter
-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
legeorgen@cs.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 7:41 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel VS Elite


When you're in the business of defying gravity, every ounce counts and
weight is everything. If you can have a lighter plane with the same
performance, a smaller lighter engine and the same useful load then you are
better off with the Rebel,... IMHO. Your investment is less and your cost
per hour to operate are less. The Elite does has a larger rear cargo area
(3" in height) but it is limited to the same load. It would be better if
you
wanted a rear set.

Grant from MAM told me last year, they sell two Rebels for every Elite.
Hmmmm? That's a statement in its self.

No hard feelings you Elite drivers. It's still a great airplane and I
would build or buy either plane that was the best deal at the time. The
quick built might push me over the edge. After building two kit planes in
the past five years, juggling work and family, the quick built sounds like
a
winner if I decided to go a third round.

Bruce G 357R

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world

Mike,

The only Rebel upgrades that MAM doesn't include with the kit, that I'm aware of, are the tail cone doubler and the door sills that some of you are beefing up. MAM doesn't recognize these two items.

Included with all new Rebel kits is the firewall fix, float fix, the inside tail cone under the horiz. stab (part #?) fix, latest spring gear fix and the vertical tail attachment doubler. Have I left anything off?

Bruce G 357R

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Hi Bruce,

You've probably got it right... I haven't even looked at the pricing since last year. They probably did the same thing with the Rebel that they did with the Moose... the Moose price went up about $6000, but probably close to half of that was things that used to be options now being included in the basic package.

I guess anybody looking into it today would just have to do all the research again. Last year when I was getting close to ordering I priced all 3, Rebel, Elite, and Moose... before finally biting the bullet and ordering the Moose. Now I just have to save enough money to put an engine in it before I'm done building!

Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com (Legeorgen@cs.com)
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com (murphy-rebel@dcsol.com)
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel VS Elite


Mike,

The only Rebel upgrades that MAM doesn't include with the kit, that I'm aware of, are the tail cone doubler and the door sills that some of you are beefing up. MAM doesn't recognize these two items.

Included with all new Rebel kits is the firewall fix, float fix, the inside tail cone under the horiz. stab (part #?) fix, latest spring gear fix and the vertical tail attachment doubler. Have I left anything off?

Bruce G 357R

One of the things that allows a higher gross weight on the Elite is .032 leading edge wing skins. These can also be put on the Rebel to strengthen the wings, but retain the lighter fabric flaperons. That is one option that I would seriously consider if I was going to build a Rebel again and put it on floats. That 1730 gross weight on amphibs really doesn't leave you a lot of payload.

Not sure if this is possible, but it could save a lot of weight if you could use the Rebel flaperon structure on the Elite, instead of the metal split flaps. You might have better float performance, too.

I totally agree that empty weight is very important, and every little bit helps. With my Rebel, I notice a difference in performance with just 10 gallons fuel which is only 60 pounds.

Walter

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of legeorgen@cs.com
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 7:41 PM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Rebel VS Elite


When you're in the business of defying gravity, every ounce counts and weight is everything. If you can have a lighter plane with the same performance, a smaller lighter engine and the same useful load then you are better off with the Rebel,... IMHO. Your investment is less and your cost per hour to operate are less. The Elite does has a larger rear cargo area (3" in height) but it is limited to the same load. It would be better if you wanted a rear set.

Grant from MAM told me last year, they sell two Rebels for every Elite. Hmmmm? That's a statement in its self.

No hard feelings you Elite drivers. It's still a great airplane and I would build or buy either plane that was the best deal at the time. The quick built might push me over the edge. After building two kit planes in the past five years, juggling work and family, the quick built sounds like a winner if I decided to go a third round.

Bruce G 357R

on 30/7/02 11:30 AM, Mike Davis at mike.davis@dcsol.com wrote:

Hi Bruce,

You've probably got it right... I haven't even looked at the pricing since last year. They probably did the same thing with the Rebel that they did with the Moose... the Moose price went up about $6000, but probably close to half of that was things that used to be options now being included in the basic package.

I guess anybody looking into it today would just have to do all the research again. Last year when I was getting close to ordering I priced all 3, Rebel, Elite, and Moose... before finally biting the bullet and ordering the Moose. Now I just have to save enough money to put an engine in it before I'm done building!

Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: Legeorgen@cs.com
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: Rebel VS Elite

Mike,

The only Rebel upgrades that MAM doesn't include with the kit, that I'm aware of, are the tail cone doubler and the door sills that some of you are beefing up. MAM doesn't recognize these two items.

Included with all new Rebel kits is the firewall fix, float fix, the inside tail cone under the horiz. stab (part #?) fix, latest spring gear fix and the vertical tail attachment doubler. Have I left anything off?

Bruce G 357R