Moose fuel tanks/Water Condensation?

[Walter Klatt]

I have been flying my Rebel for almost 2 years now, and have never seen even
a drop of water in my fuel. I never store my tanks full, usually 1/2 or
less, and it is sometimes idle for weeks at a time in the winter. Last year,
it was idle for 5 months (being repaired) in one stretch. I live in the
soggy Northwest (Vancouver BC), but my plane is always hangared. I use mogas
most of the time, but avgas occasionally.

So, just wondering how big this problem really is. What is the experience of
others? Have you actually got water in your fuel from condensation in your
tanks?

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Mike Davis
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:52 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose fuel tanks


Hi Bob, I had not thought about expansion on the inboard tanks, but had
considered plumbing the ram air into both tanks and placing a small valve on
the inboard tank that could be turned off (shut of the vent) when using the
outboard tanks... this would take care of pressure normalization. As for
ram air alone moving the fuel from outboard to inboard, my thought was that
the ram air only has to help since the system would still work as a gravity
based system as fuel was burned out of the inner portion... I see what you
mean though if the inboard was full it would be working against gravity
after a while. I thought my uncle's tip tanks on his Comanche transferred
using pressure only, and I know he burns those off first, while the tank
they transfer to remains full... I'll have to check with him and see for
sure how those work.

Water condensation is the main reason I'm interested in separate tanks... it
would be much worse with one big tank if I didn't keep it full. The
outboard portion of the tank would need it's own pencil drain of course, but
again long range tanks are fairly common on a lot of aircraft and I'm not
aware of any increased tendency for water collecting in the tanks when
empty.

One of the local builders has two separate tanks in each wing, but he ran
separate plumbing from each into the cabin, and then has two small valves
mounted in the cabin in each wing root to turn them on and off, then runs
them both down the same line into the cabin to a central andair selector on
the floor. I'm not sure what he is going to use for a quantity indicator on
the outboard tanks. I was hoping for something simpler than this though.

Thanks, Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Johnson" <ob.johnson@sympatico.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: Moose fuel tanks

Not being an expert, this is what I see could be a problem. 1/ I doubt you
would get enough ram air pressure to force the outboard tank empty while
still maintaining a quantity of fuel in the inboard. 2/ If the inboard

tank

only is full, and sealed with the check valve like you describe this means
there is no vent in this tank and what do you think would happen sitting

in

the hot sun ??? 3/ If the outboard tank was empty a lot of the time, I

would

be concerned about condensation (water) build up when sitting, and this
would be the first thing sucked into the inboard tank when running. ( if

of

course you had enough suction to open the check valve without collapsing

the

wing section first.) Just MHO -Bob J Rebel "652"

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[Mike Davis]

I've actually seen ice crystals when checking the fuel drains during
preflight here in Fairbanks when it's cold (-10F or colder), but since I
have not been flying long, I don't know how persistent a problem this is. I
certainly wouldn't think that it was water intrusion I was seeing in
February when everything has been frozen since October. Seems I've always
heard to park it empty or full.

Thanks, Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:20 AM
Subject: RE: Moose fuel tanks/Water Condensation?

I have been flying my Rebel for almost 2 years now, and have never seen

even

a drop of water in my fuel. I never store my tanks full, usually 1/2 or
less, and it is sometimes idle for weeks at a time in the winter. Last

year,

it was idle for 5 months (being repaired) in one stretch. I live in the
soggy Northwest (Vancouver BC), but my plane is always hangared. I use

mogas

most of the time, but avgas occasionally.

So, just wondering how big this problem really is. What is the experience

of

others? Have you actually got water in your fuel from condensation in your
tanks?

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Mike Davis
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:52 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose fuel tanks


Hi Bob, I had not thought about expansion on the inboard tanks, but had
considered plumbing the ram air into both tanks and placing a small valve

on

the inboard tank that could be turned off (shut of the vent) when using

the

outboard tanks... this would take care of pressure normalization. As for
ram air alone moving the fuel from outboard to inboard, my thought was

that

the ram air only has to help since the system would still work as a

gravity

based system as fuel was burned out of the inner portion... I see what you
mean though if the inboard was full it would be working against gravity
after a while. I thought my uncle's tip tanks on his Comanche transferred
using pressure only, and I know he burns those off first, while the tank
they transfer to remains full... I'll have to check with him and see for
sure how those work.

Water condensation is the main reason I'm interested in separate tanks...

it

would be much worse with one big tank if I didn't keep it full. The
outboard portion of the tank would need it's own pencil drain of course,

but

again long range tanks are fairly common on a lot of aircraft and I'm not
aware of any increased tendency for water collecting in the tanks when
empty.

One of the local builders has two separate tanks in each wing, but he ran
separate plumbing from each into the cabin, and then has two small valves
mounted in the cabin in each wing root to turn them on and off, then runs
them both down the same line into the cabin to a central andair selector

on

the floor. I'm not sure what he is going to use for a quantity indicator

on

the outboard tanks. I was hoping for something simpler than this though.

Thanks, Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Johnson" <ob.johnson@sympatico.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: Moose fuel tanks

Not being an expert, this is what I see could be a problem. 1/ I doubt

you

would get enough ram air pressure to force the outboard tank empty while
still maintaining a quantity of fuel in the inboard. 2/ If the inboard

tank

only is full, and sealed with the check valve like you describe this

means

there is no vent in this tank and what do you think would happen sitting

in

the hot sun ??? 3/ If the outboard tank was empty a lot of the time, I

would

be concerned about condensation (water) build up when sitting, and this
would be the first thing sucked into the inboard tank when running. ( if

of

course you had enough suction to open the check valve without collapsing

the

wing section first.) Just MHO -Bob J Rebel "652"

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[Scott & Leere' Aldrich]

Mike, I am getting the 120G tanks and have decided not worry about the H2O.
Just drain good every time. I suspect 90% plus of GA aircraft are never
parked with tanks full. I have drained ice crystal too, just keep draining
'till I don't get anymore.

Scott
SR#174






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[Wayne G. O'Shea]

Just for my "2 cents", I have <NEVER> found water in my Rebel over the last
7 years and they are always left at 1/2 tanks or less for superior
performance on local flights. Always running on AV gas (either 80/87 or
100LL). Aircraft is also stored in an unheated hanger with cement floor
where the condensation is actually worse than outside storage, as many times
throughout the year I can wash the lower wing skins with simply the moisture
on the skins. I check all 5 drain points before every flight, before someone
says you have to check it to find it!!! As a matter of fact I never found
any water in my 1958 - C182A tanks either (with rubber bladder tanks that
are supposable notorious for it!!)

On the other hand I <ALWAYS> found water in the flying schools C172, when I
rented a plane in the early days of my flying. In the winter time the drains
would be frozen in place and you hoped that the sun didn't come out to
strong while you were out flying!!! They were running on MOGAS (actually our
school, when I took my license, had just finished doing the MOGAS testing
for Transport Canada and knowing the owner/operator the "successful" results
were probably fudged!), which is much more susceptible to water, no
difference than it is in your car (ever had that ice block banging back and
forth in your tank?)! Of course other users of the aircraft were probably
not draining as often as they should have (assuming the guy/gal that just
used the plane did it for them!), but you would think a plane that was flown
as regular as a trainer would be lacking in water contamination. Considering
how often the carb ices up on my Yamaha snowmobile, without some methyl
hydrate added, running premium auto fuel I just stay away from car gas
totally in my airplanes (except the 912's that don't run worth a shit on AV
gas, and you have to be vigilant with checking the fuel for contamination
and keeping it fresh!)

Regards,
Wayne G. O'Shea
www.irishfield.on.ca

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Davis" <mike.davis@dcsol.com>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: Moose fuel tanks/Water Condensation?

I've actually seen ice crystals when checking the fuel drains during
preflight here in Fairbanks when it's cold (-10F or colder), but since I
have not been flying long, I don't know how persistent a problem this is.

I

certainly wouldn't think that it was water intrusion I was seeing in
February when everything has been frozen since October. Seems I've always
heard to park it empty or full.

Thanks, Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Klatt" <walter.klatt@shaw.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:20 AM
Subject: RE: Moose fuel tanks/Water Condensation?

I have been flying my Rebel for almost 2 years now, and have never seen

even

a drop of water in my fuel. I never store my tanks full, usually 1/2 or
less, and it is sometimes idle for weeks at a time in the winter. Last

year,

it was idle for 5 months (being repaired) in one stretch. I live in the
soggy Northwest (Vancouver BC), but my plane is always hangared. I use

mogas

most of the time, but avgas occasionally.

So, just wondering how big this problem really is. What is the

experience

of

others? Have you actually got water in your fuel from condensation in

your

tanks?

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Mike Davis
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:52 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose fuel tanks


Hi Bob, I had not thought about expansion on the inboard tanks, but had
considered plumbing the ram air into both tanks and placing a small

valve

on

the inboard tank that could be turned off (shut of the vent) when using

the

outboard tanks... this would take care of pressure normalization. As

for

ram air alone moving the fuel from outboard to inboard, my thought was

that

the ram air only has to help since the system would still work as a

gravity

based system as fuel was burned out of the inner portion... I see what

you

mean though if the inboard was full it would be working against gravity
after a while. I thought my uncle's tip tanks on his Comanche

transferred

using pressure only, and I know he burns those off first, while the tank
they transfer to remains full... I'll have to check with him and see for
sure how those work.

Water condensation is the main reason I'm interested in separate

tanks...

it

would be much worse with one big tank if I didn't keep it full. The
outboard portion of the tank would need it's own pencil drain of course,

but

again long range tanks are fairly common on a lot of aircraft and I'm

not

aware of any increased tendency for water collecting in the tanks when
empty.

One of the local builders has two separate tanks in each wing, but he

ran

separate plumbing from each into the cabin, and then has two small

valves

mounted in the cabin in each wing root to turn them on and off, then

runs

them both down the same line into the cabin to a central andair selector

on

the floor. I'm not sure what he is going to use for a quantity

indicator

on

the outboard tanks. I was hoping for something simpler than this

though.

Thanks, Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Johnson" <ob.johnson@sympatico.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: Moose fuel tanks

Not being an expert, this is what I see could be a problem. 1/ I doubt

you

would get enough ram air pressure to force the outboard tank empty

while

still maintaining a quantity of fuel in the inboard. 2/ If the inboard

tank

only is full, and sealed with the check valve like you describe this

means

there is no vent in this tank and what do you think would happen

sitting

in

the hot sun ??? 3/ If the outboard tank was empty a lot of the time, I

would

be concerned about condensation (water) build up when sitting, and

this

would be the first thing sucked into the inboard tank when running.

( if

of

course you had enough suction to open the check valve without

collapsing

the

wing section first.) Just MHO -Bob J Rebel "652"

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[Mike Kimball]

Maybe I'm just lucky but I have been flying since 1979 in all sorts of
different airplanes and I have only found significant water in the fuel
once, and small amounts very rarely. On a multileg trip one of my fuel
stops resulted in the need to fill my drain cup over 6 times before I
stopped pulling water out and got to the fuel. Of course, I let the fuel
supplier know that his tank had a bunch of water in it. Shows how important
it is to not just check fuel before the 1st flight, but also any time you
re-fuel. Also shows that despite only finding significant water once in 23
years of flying, you must ALWAYS check. It only takes once to cause a
crash. One last thought - always make sure that what's in the cup is fuel.
If you are used to looking for a separation between two liquids (water and
fuel) you might think that cup full of water is a cup full of fuel.
Sometimes 100LL is only faintly blue, especially when looking through the
yellowed plastic of your old fuel cup. Back when you could get 80 and 100LL
if you mixed them you would get a clear liquid. If you are mixing different
fuels you may get something that's clear like water. Make sure it smells
like fuel and not like water or Jet-A. Jet fuel also feels oily where AVGAS
or auto fuel doesn't.

Mike Kimball
SR#044

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Walter Klatt
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:21 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: RE: Moose fuel tanks/Water Condensation?


I have been flying my Rebel for almost 2 years now, and have never seen even
a drop of water in my fuel. I never store my tanks full, usually 1/2 or
less, and it is sometimes idle for weeks at a time in the winter. Last year,
it was idle for 5 months (being repaired) in one stretch. I live in the
soggy Northwest (Vancouver BC), but my plane is always hangared. I use mogas
most of the time, but avgas occasionally.

So, just wondering how big this problem really is. What is the experience of
others? Have you actually got water in your fuel from condensation in your
tanks?

-----Original Message-----
From: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com [mailto:murphy-rebel@dcsol.com]On Behalf Of
Mike Davis
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:52 AM
To: murphy-rebel@dcsol.com
Subject: Re: Moose fuel tanks


Hi Bob, I had not thought about expansion on the inboard tanks, but had
considered plumbing the ram air into both tanks and placing a small valve on
the inboard tank that could be turned off (shut of the vent) when using the
outboard tanks... this would take care of pressure normalization. As for
ram air alone moving the fuel from outboard to inboard, my thought was that
the ram air only has to help since the system would still work as a gravity
based system as fuel was burned out of the inner portion... I see what you
mean though if the inboard was full it would be working against gravity
after a while. I thought my uncle's tip tanks on his Comanche transferred
using pressure only, and I know he burns those off first, while the tank
they transfer to remains full... I'll have to check with him and see for
sure how those work.

Water condensation is the main reason I'm interested in separate tanks... it
would be much worse with one big tank if I didn't keep it full. The
outboard portion of the tank would need it's own pencil drain of course, but
again long range tanks are fairly common on a lot of aircraft and I'm not
aware of any increased tendency for water collecting in the tanks when
empty.

One of the local builders has two separate tanks in each wing, but he ran
separate plumbing from each into the cabin, and then has two small valves
mounted in the cabin in each wing root to turn them on and off, then runs
them both down the same line into the cabin to a central andair selector on
the floor. I'm not sure what he is going to use for a quantity indicator on
the outboard tanks. I was hoping for something simpler than this though.

Thanks, Mike
195SR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Johnson" <ob.johnson@sympatico.ca>
To: <murphy-rebel@dcsol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: Moose fuel tanks

Not being an expert, this is what I see could be a problem. 1/ I doubt you
would get enough ram air pressure to force the outboard tank empty while
still maintaining a quantity of fuel in the inboard. 2/ If the inboard

tank

only is full, and sealed with the check valve like you describe this means
there is no vent in this tank and what do you think would happen sitting

in

the hot sun ??? 3/ If the outboard tank was empty a lot of the time, I

would

be concerned about condensation (water) build up when sitting, and this
would be the first thing sucked into the inboard tank when running. ( if

of

course you had enough suction to open the check valve without collapsing

the

wing section first.) Just MHO -Bob J Rebel "652"

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